Vaults:5, the rim, and subvaults

[Arrhythmia]

no brainer

Sure, it's a no brainer to "not do Vaults:5 unless you're ready for Vaults:5", but evaluating whether or not you're ready for vaults is actually a non-trivial decision.

I only point this out because the tavern seems to love the phrase "no-brainer" and consequently turns it into something completely meaningless. I do not like the current implementation of V:5, though I really do like crate's "open the corners" suggestion and hope it goes in.

[Blink]

no brainer

Sure, it's a no brainer to "not do Vaults:5 unless you're ready for Vaults:5", but evaluating whether or not you're ready for vaults is actually a non-trivial decision.

I only point this out because the tavern seems to love the phrase "no-brainer" and consequently turns it into something completely meaningless. I do not like the current implementation of V:5, though I really do like crate's "open the corners" suggestion and hope it goes in.

If you are going to quote me, please quote the complete statement. What I said was this:

Removing the rim corridors therefore reduces player choices, making V5 a no brainer: i.e., don't go there unless you can safely take out a couple stone giants, a titan, a pack or three of yaktaurs, a good dozen guards, and maybe an ancient lich. All at the same time. Since there is a good chance you will have to do precisely this, at the end of a deadend corridor with nowhere to go.

That is, what I said was: the change of removing the rim corridors means that the player has fewer choices. The evaluation of whether you are ready for V5 or not is actually now easier, not harder. Now, all you have to do is determine whether you can stand up to a mob of the worst V5 has to throw at you. If you can't, stay out. Before this change, the decision was harder and more interesting. You didn't actually have to stand up to the whole mob at once. With the right resources and tactics, you can avoid a mob fight and deal with the enemies differently. More options. More choices. More decisions.

If others have misused the term "no-brainer" that lies on them. Not me. Please bear that in mind. Thank you for the courtesy.

[Arrhythmia]

That is, what I said was: the change of removing the rim corridors means that the player has fewer choices. The evaluation of whether you are ready for V5 or not is actually now easier, not harder. Now, all you have to do is determine whether you can stand up to a mob of the worst V5 has to throw at you. If you can't, stay out. Before this change, the decision was harder and more interesting. You didn't actually have to stand up to the whole mob at once. With the right resources and tactics, you can avoid a mob fight and deal with the enemies differently. More options. More choices. More decisions.

If others have misused the term "no-brainer" that lies on them. Not me. Please bear that in mind. Thank you for the courtesy.

How do you decide whether or not a character is strong enough to fight V:5 though? I don't mean this as a rhetorical question, what criteria needs to be fulfilled before you, the user Blink, feel that you can take on V:5? Because prior to this change, I actually did have a very simple criterion for doing V:5. My strategy was "move faster than a standard human straight to the rim", and the criterion I needed to do that was "Am I capable of moving faster than a standard human?" If I could answer that question "yes", then if/when I reached V:5 I was ready for it, mostly by virtue of having fought and won against everything in V:1-4. This, reducing a branch end to a single boolean question, is what I actually think of as a no-brainer. Of course, I feel the change really did go too far and now my strategy for V:5 is "just do M:6 instead", but in an ideal world, the removal of whatever conditions on V:5 that let me run off to the rim would present me with a new, more difficult choice. Although I have less responses to this choice, if everything was done well, it would be harder to choose my response.

Which, I think, brings me to a more abstract point about a lot of rhetoric I see being thrown around here and webtiles, wherein "more choices" is seen as ideal and "less choices" is seen as something to be avoided, argued almost as if they were some axioms of game design. Which is obviously false. If, in Chess, the FIDE introduced some new rule wherein on the opening move I could checkmate Black, I would certainly have more options than I did before, but this new 21st option is so much better than the other 20 possible first moves that it renders the game into a triviality. Which, I think, is really a heart-and-soul aspect of game design as an abstract practice; rules are just limitations on the players responses to a situation. What matters isn't how many or how few of those limitations there are, but how deep the decision making we are led to by those limitations is.

All that aside I think V:5 kind of blows at the moment.

[duvessa]

You're ready for new V:5 if you have ctele or shatter, otherwise you're not, pretty simple.

[Arrhythmia]

what if i have ctele but i'm a formicid.

what then smart guy

[dck]

corrupt the stairs and blink into a corridor
then hit 5 a whole lot.

[Zammy]

You're ready for new V:5 if you have ctele or shatter, otherwise you're not, pretty simple.

So you say it's impossible for FoBe to be ready ever since it can't use either.

[Sprucery]

You're ready for new V:5 if you have ctele or shatter, otherwise you're not, pretty simple.

So you say it's impossible for FoBe to be ready ever since it can't use either.

No, FoBe just has the additional requirement to be able to deal with Trog's wrath :)

[Zammy]

You're ready for new V:5 if you have ctele or shatter, otherwise you're not, pretty simple.

So you say it's impossible for FoBe to be ready ever since it can't use either.

No, FoBe just has the additional requirement to be able to deal with Trog's wrath

I stand corrected.

[XuaXua]

Anything wrong with making V5 extradimensional and allow Pac-man-esque wrap-throughs at the edges /ends of the new corridors?

Someone already suggested using teleporters to do something similar to this.

Yeah, I know; I read that somewhere...

What about ending each hallway with 1-4 teleporters, randomized to either one of the ends of the the other hallways or the same hallway's end (a loop-back)?

Right... no one acknowledged it, so I went with the alternate Pac-Man suggestion.

[Blink]

How do you decide whether or not a character is strong enough to fight V:5 though? I don't mean this as a rhetorical question, what criteria needs to be fulfilled before you, the user Blink, feel that you can take on V:5? Because prior to this change, I actually did have a very simple criterion for doing V:5. My strategy was "move faster than a standard human straight to the rim", and the criterion I needed to do that was "Am I capable of moving faster than a standard human?" If I could answer that question "yes", then if/when I reached V:5 I was ready for it, mostly by virtue of having fought and won against everything in V:1-4. This, reducing a branch end to a single boolean question, is what I actually think of as a no-brainer.

I agree that reducing a branch end to a single boolean question is a no brainer.

And to me this "no-rim" change reduces V5 to a single boolean question: "am I capable of fighting the worst mobs V5 has to throw at me in a deadend?" You have to expect to win this fight since you can no longer avoid it nor change it. And the vast majority of the posters so far have confirmed that they cannot expect to win this fight, pre-Zot. Thus, the change presents a no brainer. Indeed, you prove this by noting that your ideal solution now is to skip V5 in favor of Slime 6.

Prior to this change, I did not see tackling V5 as a single boolean question. I normally find then entrance to Vault before I do the two Lair non-Slime branches: i.e., D to L, do L, do O, D to Depth (when I find V). By this point, I almost always have at least one Speed potion and one Fear scroll. I would not, however, tackle V5 automatically yet. I might. It depends on what else I have and can do.

As a fighter or stabber, Fear/Blink/Fog/Speed/Butteflies should be enough, but likely after I clear D, L, O, and have two runes. As a caster, I would want Repel, Intox if I can get it, plus some form of mana recover (Magic potions may be enough) and a mass kill spell. Depending on my spells, I may not run for the rim at all: with good defenses and a smite attack, I can conceivably try to fight at the stairs and run for the edge if things go bad. In all three cases, having C-Tel, Map, and Tel can do it. But that also depends on whether I plan to do extended. If so, I may want to save Map if the RNGs have been stingy. Thus, to me, the decision is not a no brainer.

With the old V5, I can choose to fight or avoid. With the new change, my only choice is fight.

I agree that more choices is not always good. But more choices is not always bad either. Sometimes more choices is actually good. I see the attempts to balance the melee weapons as moving in this direction: to give players more incentive to choose the different options. I also see Crate's suggestion to open the quadrant corners into the rim as a move into this direction since it gives players more choices and more risk.

I also understand that there are people who do not respond well when someone uses the term "no brainer" or advocates for more players choices. But to be clear, what we have here is a situation where a part of the game has been changed to reduce player choices, and I am stating that I would prefer that this change be undone, to restore the original choices I had.

[duvessa]

You're ready for new V:5 if you have ctele or shatter, otherwise you're not, pretty simple.

So you say it's impossible for FoBe to be ready ever since it can't use either.

That sounds about right, yeah.

[Zammy]

You're ready for new V:5 if you have ctele or shatter, otherwise you're not, pretty simple.

So you say it's impossible for FoBe to be ready ever since it can't use either.

That sounds about right, yeah.

Poor FoBe
The only Fo I've won with.

[wizzzargh]

I hope making V:5 more difficult will encourage people to look for a third rune elsewhere, like Abyss, Slime, perhaps even Pandemonium or Tomb

Which perhaps will lead into more attention being given to areas of the game that aren't the "Standard" 3 rune ascension package, which I see as positive. The idea that the third rune acquired should 99% of the time be Vaults is an assumption that, if challenged, could open up more choices in what shape the end of the game will take.

[dpeg]

I see that the tavern has mostly made up its opinion; I don't have my own yet (but I'll be fair and say that I expect some kind of self-reinforcing opinioneering going on, with a general --and natural-- aversion to changes making the game harder).

My point here is that "fewer decisions" does not imply "no-brainer", or "less fun" or similar. It always depends -- I thought we had established that during the rune lock discussion: if one choice dominates all the other ones, then removing this choice may open up space for several ways to accomplish something.

So the real questions should be: how dominating was the rim use with old V:5? Does the new layout make it easier to make mistakes, i.e. allow for more player level differentiation?

(I do like the talk about other layout modification, e.g. by crate. As I see it, tenofswords' change basically aimed to challenge the assumption that V:5 has to have a rim because it always had. I'm pretty sure that many basic features like this --for example also dungeon structure-- have been determined quite arbitrarily in the beginning, and then never reconsidered.)

[cursednobleman]

I hope making V:5 more difficult will encourage people to look for a third rune elsewhere, like Abyss, Slime, perhaps even Pandemonium or Tomb

Which perhaps will lead into more attention being given to areas of the game that aren't the "Standard" 3 rune ascension package, which I see as positive. The idea that the third rune acquired should 99% of the time be Vaults is an assumption that, if challenged, could open up more choices in what shape the end of the game will take.

The problem with that assertion is that you're giving the player "equal" options with their third rune. Though the two lair runes are the easiest. Take the inclusion of the spider branch, it's on the same level of difficulty as snake if not slightly easier.

Now take what tinkering with V5 is doing. You're raising the difficulty of the hardest rune, in tandem with making the midgame harder. Now you're making V5 as hard as if not worse than slime 6 and abyss. Oh sure, you're exposing players to less visited areas and forcing them to contend with different challenges. The way I see it though, you don't care about fouling with the difficulty curve to improve diversity. V5 is the last spike before Z5, and when you foul with that, you're making things harder for people that find the game challenging enough as it is.

You're functionally just making them get 4 runes if you crank the difficulty of V5 until they have to go elsewhere.

[Arrhythmia]

I don't think "this makes crawl more difficult" is a terribly huge concern when "gameplay should be challenging" is a stated design goal.

[crate]

Yes I still feel like a lot of this topic is missing my original point. I bring up the increased difficulty as an observation. My actual concern is that removing the rim didn't actually make the player decide between multiple options that are closer to equal (the best option is still often "run down the cross" except what you do after that is more limited and not in a good way) and that it exposes problems in the v:5 monster set and subvaults (or, in another light, makes things that were not previously problems into problems).

I can certainly see the concern with the old v:5 layout. In a day or so I might pick up the open-corners .des posted on the previous page and see how it goes.

[cursednobleman]

I don't think "this makes crawl more difficult" is a terribly huge concern when "gameplay should be challenging" is a stated design goal.

Do you find gameplay not challenging enough?

[Tenaya]

Most people already recommend saving Vaults 5 until after you've complete the rest of the non-extended game, this would just make it worse. Although in general, every branch has a difficulty jump before the last floor, and a similar recommendation to delay the last floor of a branch exists for nearly every non-extended branch in the game. Vaults does seem like it might be one of the bigger jumps, though.


I would argue that the whole ambush scenario with the danger of stairs being locked already rewards spoilers far more than anything else in the non-extended game (and maybe even the extended game, but I've never played that). I've only beaten the game once, and I was heavily spoiled. The only parts of the game where I felt like the spoilers made a huge difference in my strategy (besides knowing the recommended order for tackling branches) were the ascension and Vaults 5, and I'm pretty sure the difference was much larger on Vaults 5. To reduce that, I think you'd either have to remove the stair locking, or remove the initial ambush.

I would say that the change to Vaults:5 and the corresponding removal of options for fleeing (due to dead-end corridors and the possibility of stair locking) make the level particularly spoilery. The only way to know the tactics of the danger is to have been there before. I am also glad I read Tavern discussion because this change would have been a big surprise.

[Tenaya]

I don't understand the need for this change.

The driving force seems to be impression that the outer rim trivializes the initial ambush. So let's look at this.

Before this change, when you come down the V4 stairs, you are surrounded by a large group of melee threats, with a good chance of also being spotted by some ranged threats spilling out of the quadrants. What are your options?

1. Random Teleport? Very risky and not exactly satisfying gameplay. You're giving up control to the RNGs completely.

2. Map & Controlled Teleport? Well, this assumes you have C-Tel, which I'd say is about a 50/50 proposition. But yes, if you have this combo, you can land somewhere really safe.

3. Fear Scroll/Intoxication/Blink Scroll + maybe a speed boost and run for the rim? Fairly reliable but it still leaves you having to deal with the enemies following you as well as any that may have spawned down the corridor.

4. Stairdance if you have good defenses & hp? This only works until the stairs get locked down. And then you're forced to resort to one of the choices above.

5. Bring overwhelming firepower? Sure, you can get Firestorm/Nado/whatever up by V5 and just nuke the place. I've done this plenty of times. It's fun. But really, if you can do this, the rim corridors don't matter a wit.

and,
6. Leave and come back later. But this is not always possible due to stair locking.

Because the stairs already go to essentially 1 place anyway, reducing the downstairs from Vaults:4 to 5 to a single stair would convey some information as to the expectation of welcome. I think the similar change to Vestibule was a good decision.

[archaeo]

Do you find gameplay not challenging enough?

To be honest, CN, since they made the immolation change, I haven't found Vaults:5 all that challenging. It's trivial to explode the ambush and retreat into the rim while you clean up what comes out, running away while hasted if anything goes wrong. Given that it takes extraordinarily bad luck to get to V:5 without access to the full consumable set, I've never had a problem getting into V:5 and clearing a way to retreat if necessary.

This change probably goes too far in the other direction, but surely I can't be alone in thinking that 0.13's V:5 was particularly toothless.

[wizzzargh]

you don't care about fouling with the difficulty curve to improve diversity.

I think I should clarify my thoughts on this matter. I think the "Difficulty Curve" in Crawl becomes a series of spikes and plateaus after the Lair Runes, with the most notable spike being the "All Demons, All The Time" sections of Pan and Hell. Increasing the spike height of V:5 is not desirable in a vacuum, but it is desirable if the spike is then treated as an incentive to normalize the difficulty levels of other areas to fit a curve in order to ensure that, say, getting a Pandemonium rune instead of the Silver rune could be a legitimate choice, rather than a daredevil stunt. To accomplish this, Pandemonium would have to be changed so that the difficulty of Pandemonium is a curve, rather than the current plateau of "If you can get one Pan rune, you can probably get all the Pan runes."

So I'm not exactly advocating for a strict increase in difficulty. Rather, I think increasing V:5 difficulty could prompt a needed evaluation of the difficulty plateaus that the current structure of "The 3-Rune Game" enables.

[cursednobleman]

Do you find gameplay not challenging enough?

To be honest, CN, since they made the immolation change, I haven't found Vaults:5 all that challenging. It's trivial to explode the ambush and retreat into the rim while you clean up what comes out, running away while hasted if anything goes wrong. Given that it takes extraordinarily bad luck to get to V:5 without access to the full consumable set, I've never had a problem getting into V:5 and clearing a way to retreat if necessary.

This change probably goes too far in the other direction, but surely I can't be alone in thinking that 0.13's V:5 was particularly toothless.

Since we're getting into anecdotes, have you arc, ever been slapped with a mark, chased by a summoner ancient lich, then have a warden lock the stairs to V4 with a suboptimal build? I have. And let me tell you, if that rim wasn't there I'd be teleporting over the place and possibly dying. Take the standard crawler and subject them to that treatment, I'm sure they'll welcome the change.

[archaeo]

Sure, CN, which is why I said "This change probably goes too far in the other direction," which is to say that, like Arrhy, while I appreciate the reason for the change, the current configuration of V:5 is dangerous enough to avoid going there if at all possible. And given that everyone's thinking about V:5 now, I feel pretty confident a better idea'll get merged as soon as it's finished.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

So the real questions should be: how dominating was the rim use with old V:5? Does the new layout make it easier to make mistakes, i.e. allow for more player level differentiation?

I completely disagree. In fact I think the question "how dominating was rim use in V:$", and the assertion in the commit that this is a "slight" change, are rather telling of a general lack of understanding of the situation.

On any level, the player must establish a monster-clear foothold from which they can safely advance. This is NOT optional; skilled crawl play revolves entirely around retreating to safe territory. So yes, in a sense the rim "dominates" V:5 tactics, but that is a simplistic interpretation. The rim is the foundation upon which all V:5 tactics are built. By removing it and leaving the cross intact, all that is accomplished is dramatically increasing the danger. "Get out of the ambush ring, run to the far end of the cross and finish off the guards there" is still the correct play for all characters except those so powerful that tactics are unnecessary. That part even becomes less interesting; I've often found myself compromising between retreating further around the edge to avoid being overwhelmed by the guards and holding my ground lest the unexplored rim contains something nasty. But what really changes is what happens afterwards, which is that without controlled translocations, the player has no room to employ Crawl's fundamental tactics. It's really more of a challenge to crawl's core design than a challenge to this level's layout (because grouped stairs+ambush+cross is the thing that forces this universal approach, not the rim). As someone else said, it makes V:5 somewhat similar to a ziggurat level, and I really do not think ziggurats are something that crawl design should aspire to.

I don't think "this makes crawl more difficult" is a terribly huge concern when "gameplay should be challenging" is a stated design goal.

V:5, with the rim, was already considered by many to be harder than D:27/Depths. This changes makes V:5 - for some characters, at least - significantly harder than Zot. It's not a question of making crawl more difficult, it is a question of making a single level more difficult in the ecosystem of an entire game.

I hope making V:5 more difficult will encourage people to look for a third rune elsewhere, like Abyss, Slime, perhaps even Pandemonium or Tomb

That would be fine and dandy with me to be perfectly honest, except for the rather severe problem that this list contains the 3 most poorly designed and un-fun branches in Crawl. Something like 90% of my last Tomb visit consisted of resting.

I thought we had established that during the rune lock discussion: if one choice dominates all the other ones, then removing this choice may open up space for several ways to accomplish something.

As far as I am aware, the rune lock didn't open up any new space (or, indeed, accomplish anything of significance). As you can see by querying qw[2], the recommended branch order has not changed at all except that after both S:4's have been completed, a single S:5 is completed in order to gain access to V1-4, in order to make Depths properly trivial before acquiring the other two runes immediately prior to Zot.

[wizzzargh]

That would be fine and dandy with me to be perfectly honest, except for the rather severe problem that this list contains the 3 most poorly designed and un-fun branches in Crawl. Something like 90% of my last Tomb visit consisted of resting.

And that's why I want people to go there more often! So the problem of them being subpar isn't just waved away as "Oh, well, they're optional, y'know."
But I'm getting off topic, as usual.

[caleb]

This may be a little out there and more code to implement but what if V:5 had a a -Tele, the welcoming party was made up of various monsters not just vault guards, or the whole opening the corners (I really like that idea).

[dpeg]

What would really help: post your trunk experience with V:5!
We have heard lots of opinion, but game reports are much more useful. Perhaps best in new threads, I don't know. This is one is a bit lukewarm by now.

TheDefiniteArticle: It seems you're arguing against change because it can go wrong (according to your statements, for you both rune lock and V:5 change failed). That's alright, but of no help to us: we want to improve the game and the first change may be subpar... yet starting to think about features never challenged before can be only good. Even if we decide to make no change in the end. (Of course, I don't agree that the rune lock achieved nothing, and I completely understand what the V:5 change is about...)

We have never shied away from tough decisions (removal of content) but, as is true so often, change of content is even more contentious.

[Chris7]

V:5 experience, OK. I'll put it here for lack of anywhere better at the moment.

I just took on V:5 for the first time since the change, as well as the first time as a SpEn. One word: discord. Discord was able to handle basically the entirety of the central area on its own with a tiny bit of cleanup, all as I cowered in a hallway. Mind, I don't think I got any warden/convoker spawns in the middle. The real annoying part was with a few monsters that had been attracted by the noise - I nearly splat to a titan that kept airstriking me, but managed to burn through a few consumables and a bit of luck to survive. From then, it was all about teleporting in to the back of the vaults to crack them from the inside. (however, I didn't get anything horribly nasty, like aliches - just a couple of tentacled monstrosities were the biggest threats.)

I'm not a huge fan of the V:5 change, but anything I could have said about it has been expressed here (better) already, so.

[Sar]

I did new V$ earlier today, but my character was stupidly strong, and I also had CTele and ?tele to burn. So I mapped the level and was jumping around killing everything that moves (and bailing out if too much things were moving on my screen). No useful feedback, I'm afraid.

[araganzar]

Can I say something about by V:5 experience pre-trunk?

I really like the outer corridor design. It's unique in the game, it's fun to crawl the corridors, run around the outside wondering what is inside, hang out there after you pissed off too much stuff. To be it's part of the Zeitgeist, the shared experience of the game. If you can make the corridor interesting enough and challenging enough, I would like for you to keep it.

I rarely flee beyond a step or two out of sight of the stairs on inital entry, so this is not a big change for me. After that, a single warden is easy to deal with so I would just stairs when in the past I would go to the outside. Also, for me the present Vaults:5 setup fails one of my major criteria for the game: that it should be able to be completed unspoiled with reasonable play and precautions getting the lair and vault runes. With this change I don't feel the main game path is accessible to new players. To that end, yes, it's valid to say it is too difficult. A player should learn from lair what difficulty to expect in a branch end and they are not prepared for the ramp-up V:5 now represents.

I recognize sometimes things must go or change, like the Hive and Forest. But I think Vaults and this element of Vaults is well-liked and works. This response was easy to predict, so I have to think it was known that this would not be a solution but rather would spark a solution. So it's probably best to cease arguing about it and prepare to tear apart the next offering.

[Wahaha]

The idea that the third rune acquired should 99% of the time be Vaults is an assumption that, if challenged, could open up more choices in what shape the end of the game will take.

I hope making V:5 more difficult will encourage people to look for a third rune elsewhere, like Abyss, Slime, perhaps even Pandemonium or Tomb

Now you're making V5 as hard as if not worse than slime 6 and abyss.

Vaults 5 WITH the outer corridor is regularly more dangerous than Abyss (0.13 Abyss at least). And even Slime can sometimes be easier. The rune variety is already there; the dominating mentality that V:5 is always the 3rd rune needs to go away. If you want to talk about rune balance, at least try to evaluate the branches correctly (my evaluation is not necessarily correct but it's certainly closer to reality than "vaults without the outer corridor is as hard as abyss"). Vaults with the outer corridor could be made a little harder. That would help the balance between Vaults/Abyss/Slime. It just can't be as hard as it is right now without the outer corridor, because it's never worth doing. The idea of cutting off extra corners from the subvaults is good.

Rune balance isn't what crate wanted to address with this thread (I agree with what he said, no point in repeating), but it's something that has to be considered when making changes to V:5 difficulty.

[Sandman25]

I did new V$ earlier today, but my character was stupidly strong, and I also had CTele and ?tele to burn. So I mapped the level and was jumping around killing everything that moves (and bailing out if too much things were moving on my screen). No useful feedback, I'm afraid.

The same here. I had conservation with fear, vulnerability, wand/scrolls of teleportation and cTele with high Evo. Read mapping as my first action just in case the scroll would be destroyed later and started stair-dancing.

[dck]

Well I've done V: $ on two more characters ever since my first game there. I had stupidly high mr with both characters, !might enough to knock out the world and since Dang gives you a lot of stealth and in this situation infinite fog it didn't matter much as you have an effective LoS of two squares while killing everyone and with such melee firepower it's simple to stay in the fog regardless of how many dudes are coming at you (and since I feared them away at the start there weren't even that many to begin with).

I'd like to mention I'm not particularly concerned about difficulty, I'm concerned about tactics to deal with things in interesting ways being removed by this change while the more simplistic ones are given even more attention. All the three times I've done V: $ now fighting in the hallway was basically fighting a mild ziggurat floor, it even has the randomness of a ziggurat with the chance of getting hugely more threatening monsters near the ambush based on a diceroll when you enter the level.

[Leafsnail]

Actually rethinking my earlier post, it might make sense to have a warning before descending to V:5. It's the only level in the game that tries to murder you from the moment you descend (other than that one Snake ending which I think was removed), and a new player has no real way of knowing that.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

What would really help: post your trunk experience with V:5!

The ability to recognize good quadrants (quadrants which better allow the player to simulate old rim behavior) is a definite advantage. In my quick test run I identified two quadrants which seem far better than others now. Controlled Teleport is completely dominating, to the extent of making other tactics mostly irrelevant. On the one hand, controlled teleport is not as awful as I previously thought, but on the other hand I still think it should be removed from Crawl. Along the same lines, keeping a mapping scroll specially for V:5 is now something I would be sure to do every single game, rather than a convenience that I often don't bother with. Played 5 quick characters, wizmoding good early items like elec and cheating exactly 3 pre-V:5 deaths.

TheDefiniteArticle: It seems you're arguing against change because it can go wrong (according to your statements, for you both rune lock and V:5 change failed).

If the goal was "make V:5 harder" it is a complete success. But the wording of the commit seems to tell me difficulty is not the goal. The commit message opens with this:

  Code:

The ambush doesn't mean anything when even the slightest speed boost
 lets you run off to some thin, safe corridors far away from quadrant
 entrances and pick away at the group or flee for long enough to scatter
 them across the border instead.

The problem I'm having is that this is how a good player deals with ALL groups of enemies. Changing the level layout does nothing to change this behavior, because this is how ALL problems are approached, regardless of the situation. The commit even calls this sort of play "degeneracy", and there is this quote from galehar:

I agree that "take the fight to a safe place, split the monsters' band and take them off one by one" is a repetitive tactic

I don't know how else to say this, but if you think this tactic is bad gameplay, then you don't actually like Crawl. If you want to change it, you should be looking at combat (easy to lose large chunks of health instantly, almost impossible to regain health in a short period, etc.), not messing with what is agreed to be one of the best levels in the entire game!

My position is that the ambush has a point, and accomplishes it, with or without the rim, and that by removing the rim, the purpose of the ambush is actually diluted and diminished. Here is what the ambush does, from the point of view of the player: the ambush forces you away from the stairs. The fact that all 4 quadrants open up directly onto the stairs reinforces and maintains this. There are almost always monsters near the stairs, and fighting near the stairs is almost always a bad idea due to the potential for powerful threats to wander over. The safest place in the level, the rim, is also the furthest from the stairs. This is distinct from every other level in the game, where fighting near stairs is preferred.

Which brings me to another change that goes unaddressed in the commit message and doesn't seem to have gotten much discussion here, either: ranged monsters. With no corners at the ends of the cross, anything with strong ranged combat becomes substantially more terrifying. You must either fight them at the quadrant entrance, an awful suicidal plan for obvious reasons, or go to the end of the cross (the only safe place in newV5) and then block projectiles with your face as you close the gap. Fortunately I am already in the habit of getting Repel Missiles on every character who has any opportunity to do so.

[cursednobleman]

In terms of V5 experiences, I've lost at least 3 memorable characters due to stairdancing pretrunk, a DDEE shatterer of makh, a VpSu of sif, and a TeWz of Veh with nado (death by sphinx paralysis). I've learned my lesson of not stairdancing; this is only reinforced by the addition of wardens and sentinels. After the TeWz, I swore off V5 stairdancing, and now blinkscroll past the initial ambush into the rim, a "degenerate" tactic.

After multiple games with marks and getting pursed by a floor-full of ranged enemies, I have determined that the rim is a logical place to run when bad things happen. With no unoccupied cover and over a dozen enemies, the best think you can do is bottleneck them with the rim.

[Sprucery]

Vaults 5 WITH the outer corridor is regularly more dangerous than Abyss (0.13 Abyss at least). And even Slime can sometimes be easier. The rune variety is already there; the dominating mentality that V:5 is always the 3rd rune needs to go away.

Seconded. For example, for my latest 5-runer VpVM of Ash, both the abyssal and slimy runes were considerably easier to get than the silvery one.

[Tenaya]

Actually rethinking my earlier post, it might make sense to have a warning before descending to V:5. It's the only level in the game that tries to murder you from the moment you descend (other than that one Snake ending which I think was removed), and a new player has no real way of knowing that.

"The guardians of the Vaults have surely taken note of you by now. Continue downstairs? [Y/n]"

[Viashino_wizard]

Actually rethinking my earlier post, it might make sense to have a warning before descending to V:5. It's the only level in the game that tries to murder you from the moment you descend (other than that one Snake ending which I think was removed), and a new player has no real way of knowing that.

"The guardians of the Vaults have surely taken note of you by now. Continue downstairs? [Y/n]"

Or something along the lines of "The heart of the Vaults lies ahead. It is sure to be heavily guarded. Continue downstairs? [Y/n]"

Actually, someone suggested having there be only 1 staircase from V:4 to V:5. You could take that further and make V:5 it's own 1-floor sub-branch (call it The Central Vault or something) to further communicate it's unique danger to new players.

[crate]

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... 27e6af11f4

I'm actually using the older version that claws posted in this thread instead since just copying that into my .des file offline was easier for me. I did adjust the 0's at the corners of the main v:5 vault into 9's like in the actual commit. I assume this is not going to be a major difference. I did some testing with the same characters I used to test the previous layout.

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I like this solution a lot more. The guaranteed monsters in the rim are placed specifically at locations where them making noise (shouting, sentinel's horn, casting fireball, etc.) will wake up dudes in the subvaults, and additionally the fact they always exist turns out to be a big deal since it means you're always running both toward danger (the new monsters) and away from danger (whatever you are running from in the first place). Waking up dudes in the subvaults is bad news, since then they filter out to the outside and then Bad Things can happen to your character. In fact I found that running down the hallways with this layout is in some ways actually more dangerous (!!) than with the outside hallways removed completely--you are almost certain to have more enemies in total moving toward you, and they will be coming from both sides in some cases. I would need to do more extensive testing to say for sure what the difficulty level of this layout is, but it's certainly a sizable step up from the .13 v:5 layout. Certainly the decision-making does not seem as simple as .13 v:5.

I think that this version does a much better job of making "stand and fight" a reasonable option while not forcing it on the player. Running headlong into yaktaur packs, tengu reavers, a sphinx, etc. is not a fun thing to be doing. If you decide to just head to the outside and make loops around the level like in .13, you are going to be in danger. You might even end up with a solid wall of monsters blocking your path at times (and these might be bad dudes like tentmons and fire giants!). Characters who are good at taking on the vault guards (like the LOSk I used before) are capable of doing just that in the hallways. If you're strong enough you might even want to do it in the 4-wide hallways near the entrance stairs (since this ensures waking up the fewest monsters), but probably much of the time you'd choose to fight in the 2-wide hallways around the rim.

If things go bad, your character actually has movement options. They're not good options, for reasons I explained earlier, but they're there; it's no longer teleport-or-nothing. Much less "trapped by walls" and instead you get much more "trapped by monsters". Since you can kill monsters (or use consumables to avoid them in other ways, and not just teleport) I find this a lot more interesting to deal with. You can actually deal with convokers with the old method of "run away" again (which means a single one isn't going to end you), except that "run away" is no longer near-guaranteed to be pretty safe.

In short I feel like the newest iteration of v:5 is pretty good. It makes running to the outside quite dangerous without removing it as an option completely. Choosing to fight the vault guard ambush is a thing that players should actually do sometimes, now, but not the only option. Heck it even makes ctele less broken. v:5 is definitely more difficult with this layout than it was in .13 but I feel that this time the difficulty is increased in a good way.

I didn't do any testing of the quadrants themselves. My assumption is they play pretty similarly to .13 v:5, except you have to be a bit more careful (probably a good thing) since things can wander into the outer hallways via the other corners of the subvaults.

[Tenaya]

What would really help: post your trunk experience with V:5!

I just got the silver rune with my XL=26.96 Green DrTm of Ashenzari in Trunk. Unfortunately, not too much report. I just blew in there hasted with deflect missiles and a decent amount of MR and cast a couple of tornados. I should point out that given the variability of the V:5 ambush (distortion, ranged smite attacks, etc.) I finished Depths, Elf, Blade, Crypt, and Slime prior to venturing to V:5. And the ambush battle was the toughest so far in the game. It just feels like it is risky to go there sooner given the possibility of not being able to run away.

[nago]

What would really help: post your trunk experience with V:5!

I've just cleared V:5 with the guy below. Please note he's certainly strong - when I entered I had little less ac due lower skill and no slaying ring, but still stronger than necessary to win a 3 runes game.

The shortest way to describe the new layout is: it is utterly shit.
Like duvessa said, either you have ctele or shatter/tornado or maybe firestorm or refrigeration, or you don't enter V:5

The point isn't the fact the difficulty has been increased insanely - please note I've done V:5 after Slimes and Zot:1-4, I'm pretty sure V:5 is now ***much*** harder than those branches (and also Abyss:3 for what it matters) but also Tomb could be easier for many build (at least for kiku and undead worshippers).

The point, as said by other good players, is that this layout take one of base point (probably the very basilar one) of dcss' gameplay and throw out of window: fight in a safe area, one monster at time, keeping the possibility to run away if rolls go bad.
You're forced to fight an insane amount of strong enemies - 99% of those a good player would fight one at time, because dcss works so - at same times, without other means (at least I've no others ideas) than annihilating them fast with high level conjuration spells (which usually shouldn't be available at that point of the game) or fighting a bit and then blinking/teleporting from one side to another of one corridor with ctele. Heck, if you have good MR (I hadn't) probably ctele in a quadrants' corner is even less dangerous than staying in the fray in the middle.

The only other branch where this is a necessary strategy is ziggurat, and I don't think normal dcss should aim to that gameplay. Even other situations in normal/extended game which have similar aspects - snake's infamous ending, evilmike ambush in zot or deeps (is that the name of the vault?) or bad landing in pan (like hellions' island) - can be approached in different ways- which at this moment V:5 doesn't offer.

Btw, I kinda prefer crate's solution - it still put the player in an uneasy situation but leave him with more options to approach the level.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14-a0-2618-g5301534 (webtiles) character file.

nago the Sensei (Demonspawn Transmuter)            Turns: 95249, Time: 06:05:22

HP 224/224       AC 46     Str 14      XL: 26   Next: 28%
MP  32/39        EV 32     Int 21      God: Okawaru [*****.]
Gold 4835        SH 27     Dex 23      Spells: 12 memorised,  3 levels left

rFire  + + .     SeeInvis +     a - staff of energy {!a}
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     M - +8 fire dragon armour
rNeg   . . .     Conserve +     J - +5 buckler "Vuoth" {rElec rC+ Dam+3}
rPois  .         rCorr    .     (helmet unavailable)
rElec  +         rRot     +     d - +2 cloak of the Thief {+Fog Dam-3 SInv Stlth++}
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     q - +1 pair of gloves {Dex+3}
rMut   .         Warding  .     p - +1 pair of boots "Zoysh" {rC+}
Saprov + . .     Stasis   .     f - amulet of conservation
MR     +....                    w - ring of Robustness {AC+8}
                                F - +0,+7 ring of slaying

@: repel missiles, phasing, heroism, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments,
very stealthy
A: antennae 3, large bone plates 3, camouflage 1, clever 1, herbivore 1, foul
stench 2, high mp 1, saprovore 1, spiny 2, spit poison 1, strong 1, evolution 1,
augmentation 3
a: Spit Poison, Heroism, Finesse, Renounce Religion, Evoke Fog
}: 4/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled, slimy, silver


You are on level 15 of the Dungeon.
You worship Okawaru.
Okawaru is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 11 branches of the dungeon, and seen 61 of its levels.
You have visited 2 bazaars.
You have also visited: Labyrinth, Sewer, Ice Cave and Volcano.

You have collected 10730 gold pieces.
You have spent 5895 gold pieces at shops.


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You have a pair of large antennae on your head (SInv).
You are completely covered in large bone plates (AC +4, SH +6).
You radiate miasma, and are resistant to rotting and decay.
You can tolerate rotten meat.
You are mostly covered in sharp spines.
Your magical and physical power is greatly enhanced at high health.
Your skin changes colour to match your surroundings (Stlth).
Your mind is acute. (Int +2)
You digest meat inefficiently.
You have an increased reservoir of magic (+10% MP).
You can spit poison.
Your muscles are strong. (Str +2)
You evolve.


   Skills:
 - Level 22.0(27) Fighting
 * Level 17.8(22.8) Armour
 - Level 13.0(18.0) Dodging
 - Level 5.0(10.0) Shields
 - Level 22.0(27) Unarmed Combat
 - Level 7.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 15.0 Charms
 - Level 2.1 Necromancy
 - Level 10.2 Translocations
 - Level 12.5 Transmutations
   Level 3.0 Ice Magic
   Level 2.0 Poison Magic
 - Level 9.2 Evocations


You have 3 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Phase Shift           Tloc           #######...   10%         5    None
b - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
d - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ######       1%          2    None
e - Apportation           Tloc           #######...   1%          1    None
f - Flight                Chrm/Air       ######....   1%          3    None
g - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #######...   1%          3    None
h - Haste                 Chrm           ########     6%          6    None
s - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ######..     1%          2    None
t - Control Teleport      Chrm/Tloc      #######...   1%          4    None
z - Blade Hands           Trmt           #######...   2%          5    None
A - Stoneskin             Trmt/Erth      ######....   1%          2    None
R - Summon Butterflies    Summ           ###.....     17%         1    None


Inventory:

Hand weapons
 c - a +0 orcish blowgun
Missiles
 U - 3 throwing nets (quivered)
 Y - 4 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 d - the +2 cloak of the Thief (worn) {+Fog Dam-3 SInv Stlth++}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   It affects your damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks (-3).
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It can be evoked to emit clouds of fog.
   It makes you much more stealthy.
 p - the +1 pair of boots "Zoysh" (worn) {rC+}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 15 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It protects you from cold.
 q - a +1 pair of gloves of dexterity (worn)
 J - the +5 buckler "Vuoth" (worn) {rElec rC+ Dam+3}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 15 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+3).
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
 M - a +8 fire dragon armour (worn)
Magical devices
 e - a wand of digging (6)
 g - a wand of heal wounds (9)
 j - a wand of hasting (5)
 r - a wand of teleportation (5)
 t - a wand of fire {zapped: 1}
 u - a wand of disintegration (8)
 K - a wand of cold
Comestibles
 B - a choko
 E - a sausage
 X - 7 meat rations
Scrolls
 l - 4 scrolls of identify
 m - 2 scrolls of teleportation {!r!D}
 D - 2 scrolls of blinking {!r!D}
 H - 2 scrolls of fog {!r!D}
 I - 4 scrolls of remove curse {!r!D}
Jewellery
 f - an amulet of conservation (around neck)
 h - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
 n - an uncursed ring of regeneration
 w - the ring of Robustness (right hand) {AC+8}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [ring of protection]
   It affects your AC (+8).
 z - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
 F - a +0,+7 ring of slaying (left hand)
 G - an uncursed ring of wizardry
 N - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 T - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
Potions
 b - 4 potions of heal wounds
 i - a potion of restore abilities {!q!D}
 o - 4 potions of curing
 S - a potion of agility
 V - a potion of might
Magical staves
 a - an uncursed staff of energy (weapon) {!a}
Miscellaneous
 s - a phial of floods
 y - a fan of gales
 A - a fan of gales
 L - a lamp of fire
 P - a lamp of fire


'······▒(?··)▒·····▒··▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒···
▒▒▒▒▒▒·▒··()('····(▒··▒      ▒···
▒    ▒·▒··⌠··'··⌠··▒··▒      ▒···
▒    ▒·▒·(···'····[▒··▒      ▒···
▒    ▒·▒·····▒····(▒··▒▒▒▒▒  ▒▒▒▒
     ▒·▒▒'''▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒······▒ ▒▒▒▒▒
  ▒▒▒▒·▒·····▒····)▒··▒▒▒▒▒▒▒····
  ▒····▒·····+····)▒········▒····
  ▒····▒··⌠··+··6··▒·▒▒▒▒·▒·▒····
  ▒····▒·····+·····▒··▒<··▒·▒····
  ▒····▒/)···▒···(·▒··▒·▒▒▒·▒····
  ▒····▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒··▒·  ▒······
  ▒··················▒▒   ▒▒▒····
  ▒········▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒··▒      ▒▒·▒▒
  ▒········▒      ▒▒·▒       ▒·▒▒
  ▒▒▒▒▒·▒▒▒▒       ▒·▒       ▒··▒
  ▒·····▒       ▒▒▒▒+▒▒▒▒  ▒▒▒▒'▒


There are no monsters in sight!

Message History

Okay, then.
There is an open gate here.
You close the gate.
There is a gate to the Vaults here.
Items here: !!!!!!!! "" %% (( /// == ???? [ ∞∞∞∞∞∞
Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You drop 2 potions of heal wounds.
You drop a scroll of recharging {!D}.
You drop a potion of magic {!q!D}.
You drop a potion of resistance {!q!D}.
You drop 6 scrolls of remove curse {!r!D}.
You drop 2 potions of porridge {!q!D}.
You drop a scroll of amnesia.
You drop a potion of agility.
You drop 2 scrolls of enchant armour {!D}.
Saving game... please wait.
Level annotation: exclusions: Roxanne and oklob plant, Roxanne
Welcome back, nago the Demonspawn Transmuter.
Okawaru says: Bring me glory in combat!
You feel the strange sensation of being on two planes at once.
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
You gain the combat prowess of a mighty hero.
You feel slightly more hungry.
You are alive. You repel missiles.
You are out of phase with the material plane.
Your movement speed is average. Your attack speed is above average.
You are somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments.
You feel very stealthy.
Char dumped successfully.
Saving game... please wait.


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |   201 |   227 |   495 |  1051 |  1751 |  1821 |  1846 |  1804 |   663 ||  9859
       Staff             |       |       |       |       |     4 |       |       |       |       ||     4
 Fire: Blowgun           |       |       |    16 |     2 |       |       |       |       |       ||    18
Throw: Javelin           |       |       |     2 |     1 |     1 |       |       |       |       ||     4
 Cast: Beastly Appendage |    22 |       |     1 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    23
       Sticks to Snakes  |     1 |    10 |    29 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    40
       Spider Form       |     4 |    33 |    65 |    61 |    13 |       |       |       |       ||   176
       Ice Form          |       |       |     1 |    43 |    15 |     4 |       |       |       ||    63
       Repel Missiles    |       |       |       |     1 |     6 |     6 |     6 |    11 |     4 ||    34
       Blade Hands       |       |       |       |       |   173 |   194 |   150 |   165 |    53 ||   735
       Stoneskin         |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |     2 |       ||     3
       Blink             |       |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |     1 |     4 |     7 ||    14
       Haste             |       |       |       |       |       |     6 |    21 |    28 |    14 ||    69
       Control Teleport  |       |       |       |       |       |       |     4 |     7 |     9 ||    20
       Flight            |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    26 |       ||    26
       Apportation       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Regeneration      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    16 |    25 ||    41
       Phase Shift       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |    18 ||    19
Invok: Heroism           |       |       |     3 |    26 |    29 |    35 |    38 |    47 |    18 ||   196
       Finesse           |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
 Abil: End Transformatio |       |    14 |    25 |    52 |    49 |    59 |    37 |    62 |    10 ||   308
       Evoke Fog         |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |    24 |    38 |    27 ||    92
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |     6 |    10 |    11 |     4 |     2 |     9 |       ||    42
       Rod               |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |     2 |       |       ||     4
       Lamp of fire      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |     2 ||     4
       Deck              |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     9 |       ||     9
  Use: Scroll            |       |     7 |    11 |     7 |    26 |    13 |    13 |    11 |     5 ||    93
       Potion            |       |     1 |     1 |     1 |     4 |     7 |     8 |    12 |     4 ||    38
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |       |     1 |     2 |       |     2 |     3 |     5 |       ||    13
       Petrifying        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |       ||     3
       Distracted        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     1 ||     2


Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | nago, the Demonspawn Transmuter, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 15/15 MP: 3/3
   191 | D:1      | Reached skill level 3 in Unarmed Combat
   350 | D:1      | Reached skill level 2 in Transmutations
   457 | D:1      | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in large bone plates (AC +2, SH +2). [demonic ancestry]
   457 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 16/21 MP: 2/4
   501 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Sticks to Snakes
  1148 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 26/26 MP: 4/6
  1153 | D:1      | Learned a level 3 spell: Spider Form
  1353 | D:2      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  1354 | D:2      | Noticed an angel
  2070 | D:2      | Reached skill level 3 in Transmutations
  2106 | D:2      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  2229 | D:2      | Gained mutation: You can tolerate rotten meat. [demonic ancestry]
  2229 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 32/32 MP: 3/7
  2682 | D:3      | Noticed an ogre
  2690 | D:3      | Killed an ogre
  2690 | D:3      | Reached skill level 4 in Unarmed Combat
  2690 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
  2690 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You are mostly covered in large bone plates (AC +3, SH +4). [demonic ancestry]
  2690 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 37/37 MP: 5/9
  3380 | D:3      | Reached skill level 2 in Poison Magic
  3868 | D:3      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  3882 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Unarmed Combat
  3956 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 30/43 MP: 5/10
  4376 | D:3      | Reached skill level 6 in Unarmed Combat
  4943 | D:4      | Noticed Grinder
  5388 | D:4      | Noticed Pikel
  5775 | D:3      | Killed Pikel
  5775 | D:3      | Reached skill level 7 in Unarmed Combat
  5775 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You are completely covered in large bone plates (AC +4, SH +6). [demonic ancestry]
  5775 | D:3      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 22/48 MP: 2/12
  6042 | D:4      | Noticed Ijyb
  6051 | D:4      | Killed Ijyb
  6051 | D:4      | Reached skill level 8 in Unarmed Combat
  6385 | D:4      | Gained mutation: You emit a foul stench, and are resistant to rotting and decay. [demonic ancestry]
  6385 | D:4      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 27/54 MP: 7/13
  6564 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  6611 | D:5      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  6736 | D:5      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  6754 | D:5      | Killed Crazy Yiuf
  7147 | D:4      | Paralysed by Grinder for 3 turns
  7161 | D:4      | Killed Grinder
  7266 | D:5      | Reached skill level 9 in Unarmed Combat
  7348 | D:5      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
  7514 | D:5      | Noticed Dowan
  7517 | D:5      | Noticed Duvessa
  7538 | D:5      | Killed Duvessa
  8492 | D:4      | Killed Dowan
  8624 | D:5      | Reached skill level 2 in Fighting
  8715 | D:5      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  9127 | D:6      | Reached skill level 3 in Fighting
  9265 | D:6      | Reached skill level 10 in Unarmed Combat
  9273 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  9282 | D:6      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
  9290 | D:6      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
  9297 | D:6      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
  9311 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  9376 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Warmaster Okawaru
  9427 | D:6      | Reached skill level 2 in Dodging
  9549 | D:6      | Found a glowing drain.
  9562 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  9659 | Sewer    | Reached XP level 9. HP: 56/64 MP: 11/14
 10067 | Sewer    | Noticed a drowned soul
 10069 | Sewer    | Noticed a drowned soul
 10071 | Sewer    | Killed a drowned soul
 10404 | D:6      | Noticed a raven
 10418 | D:6      | HP: 6/64 [raven (11)]
 10746 | D:6      | Killed a raven
 10746 | D:6      | Reached skill level 3 in Dodging
 10746 | D:6      | Reached skill level 4 in Transmutations
 10861 | D:6      | You fall through a shaft for 3 floors!
 10946 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 11005 | D:9      | Found Yhalefaw's Magical Wand Shop.
 11014 | D:9      | Acquired Okawaru's first power
 11031 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations
 11100 | D:9      | Learned a level 4 spell: Ice Form
 11113 | D:9      | Bought a wand of teleportation (3) for 294 gold pieces
 11189 | D:9      | Reached skill level 1 in Ice Magic
 11549 | D:8      | Reached skill level 6 in Transmutations
 11549 | D:8      | Reached skill level 2 in Ice Magic
 12027 | D:7      | Noticed Eustachio
 12064 | D:7      | Killed Eustachio
 12366 | D:7      | Noticed Sigmund
 12374 | D:7      | Killed Sigmund
 12711 | D:8      | Found Juadoake's Antique Weapon Boutique.
 13005 | D:8      | Reached skill level 3 in Ice Magic
 13249 | D:9      | Noticed Psyche
 13251 | D:9      | Noticed Psyche
 13251 | D:9      | Psyche changed into Psyche the warg
 13257 | D:9      | Killed Psyche the warg
 13257 | D:9      | Reached skill level 7 in Transmutations
 13722 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 53/70 MP: 10/16
 14094 | D:8      | Noticed Croases' ghost (experienced GrVM)
 14479 | D:8      | Killed Croases' ghost
 14479 | D:8      | Reached skill level 8 in Transmutations
 14513 | D:8      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
 14606 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 14627 | D:10     | Noticed a centaur warrior
 14802 | D:10     | Found Poeqyfaq's Armour Emporium.
 14833 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 15229 | D:10     | Reached skill level 9 in Transmutations
 15763 | D:10     | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
 15768 | D:10     | Reached skill level 4 in Fighting
 15768 | D:10     | Reached skill level 4 in Dodging
 16058 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 16311 | D:10     | Killed an unseen horror
 16311 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 16521 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 16542 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 16542 | D:10     | Reached skill level 6 in Dodging
 16542 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 75/80 MP: 14/17
 16940 | D:10     | Killed a centaur warrior
 17090 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 17512 | D:10     | Reached skill level 7 in Dodging
 17517 | D:10     | Reached skill level 6 in Fighting
 18141 | Orc:1    | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
 19170 | Orc:1    | Found Gatweoq's Assorted Antiques.
 19975 | Orc:2    | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
 19978 | Orc:2    | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
 20179 | Orc:3    | Reached skill level 8 in Dodging
 20331 | Orc:3    | Noticed Maurice
 20336 | Orc:3    | Noticed Maurice
 20336 | Orc:3    | Maurice changed into Maurice the ice beast
 20345 | Orc:3    | Killed Maurice the ice beast
 20356 | Orc:3    | Identified a +1 cloak of preservation (You found it on level 3 of the Orcish Mines)
 20556 | Orc:3    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 20690 | Orc:3    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 20878 | Orc:3    | Noticed Harold
 20898 | Orc:3    | Killed Harold
 21034 | Orc:1    | Bought a shimmering ring mail for 261 gold pieces
 21046 | Orc:1    | Identified the +3 ring mail of the Ecumenical Temple {rF+ rN+ Acc+5} (You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Orcish Mines)
 21194 | D:9      | Bought a wand of hasting (3) for 588 gold pieces
 21251 | D:10     | Reached skill level 7 in Fighting
 21596 | D:11     | Found a frozen archway.
 21626 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 21819 | IceCv    | Acquired Okawaru's second power
 22028 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 10 in Transmutations
 22077 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 8 in Fighting
 22357 | IceCv    | Gained mutation: You have a pair of small antennae on your head. [demonic ancestry]
 22357 | IceCv    | Reached XP level 12. HP: 93/93 MP: 15/18
 22716 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 9 in Dodging
 23139 | IceCv    | Noticed an ice statue
 23221 | IceCv    | Killed an ice statue
 23299 | IceCv    | Noticed a death yak
 23309 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 9 in Fighting
 23324 | IceCv    | Noticed a death yak
 23347 | IceCv    | Killed a death yak
 23347 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 24010 | IceCv    | Killed a death yak
 24520 | IceCv    | Noticed a death yak
 24520 | IceCv    | Noticed a frost giant
 24532 | IceCv    | Killed a death yak
 24540 | IceCv    | Killed a frost giant
 24540 | IceCv    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 24546 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 11 in Dodging
 25314 | D:11     | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 25936 | D:11     | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in sharp spines. [demonic ancestry]
 25936 | D:11     | Reached XP level 13. HP: 103/103 MP: 15/19
 25944 | D:11     | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
 26243 | D:12     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 26278 | D:12     | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
 26444 | D:12     | Noticed Erolcha
 26452 | D:12     | Killed Erolcha
 26644 | D:12     | Reached skill level 3 in Spellcasting
 26665 | D:12     | Learned a level 5 spell: Blade Hands
 27756 | D:13     | Reached skill level 4 in Spellcasting
 27971 | D:13     | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
 28162 | D:13     | Reached skill level 11 in Unarmed Combat
 28605 | D:13     | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 28619 | D:14     | Noticed Kirke
 28638 | D:14     | Killed Kirke
 28743 | D:14     | Reached skill level 12 in Unarmed Combat
 28777 | D:14     | Noticed Asterion
 28779 | D:14     | Got a flickering copper ring
 28781 | D:14     | Noticed a spectral weapon
 28819 | D:13     | Identified the ring "Veuts" {Fire Dex+4 Int+4} (You found it on level 14 of the Dungeon)
 28825 | D:13     | Learned a level 2 spell: Stoneskin
 29247 | D:14     | HP: 9/123 [eight-headed hydra (7)]
 29658 | D:14     | Reached skill level 13 in Unarmed Combat
 29882 | D:14     | Reached XP level 14. HP: 98/110 MP: 20/26
 30152 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 30265 | D:15     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 30275 | D:15     | Got a faintly glowing buckler {god gift}
 30279 | D:15     | Identified the +5 buckler "Vuoth" {rElec rC+ Dam+3} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 15 of the Dungeon)
 30418 | D:15     | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
 30590 | D:15     | Reached skill level 2 in Shields
 30610 | D:15     | Noticed Roxanne
 30758 | D:15     | Reached skill level 3 in Shields
 30801 | D:15     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 30980 | D:15     | Reached skill level 4 in Shields
 30993 | D:15     | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 31133 | D:16     | Entered Level 16 of the Dungeon
 31133 | D:16     | Noticed Nergalle
 31247 | D:16     | Killed Nergalle
 31253 | D:16     | Noticed Nessos
 31550 | D:16     | Reached skill level 14 in Unarmed Combat
 31557 | D:16     | Noticed Rupert
 31967 | D:16     | Noticed Maud
 31983 | D:16     | Noticed Nessos
 31983 | D:16     | Nessos changed into Nessos the giant slug
 31999 | D:15     | Killed Nessos the giant slug
 32067 | D:16     | Killed Maud
 32526 | D:16     | Reached skill level 15 in Unarmed Combat
 32611 | D:16     | Gained mutation: You are somewhat resistant to further mutation. [potion of beneficial mutation]
 32754 | D:15     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 32755 | D:15     | Got a pair of dazzling boots {god gift}
 32758 | D:15     | Identified the +1 pair of boots "Zoysh" {rC+} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 15 of the Dungeon)
 32920 | D:16     | Paralysed by Rupert for 3 turns
 33291 | D:16     | Reached XP level 15. HP: 115/115 MP: 23/27
 33334 | D:16     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 33339 | Depths:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Depths
 33339 | Depths:1 | Found a gateway to a ziggurat.
 33479 | Depths:1 | Noticed Saint Roka
 33887 | Elf:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls
 33894 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 33896 | Orc:4    | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 34009 | Orc:4    | Found Qiagrium's Jewellery Shop.
 34023 | Lab      | Entered a labyrinth
 34287 | Lab      | Identified a +0 rod of the swarm (11/13) {!a} (You took it off a minotaur in a labyrinth)
 34290 | Lab      | Identified Fruoz's Compendium of Cankerous Hexes
 34298 | Lab      | Identified the Grimoire of Augmentations and Flight
 34367 | Orc:4    | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
 34376 | Orc:4    | Bought an uncursed amulet of inaccuracy for 28 gold pieces
 34684 | Orc:4    | Found Gateider's General Store.
 34684 | Orc:4    | Found Wadot's Antique Weapon Boutique.
 34703 | Orc:3    | Reached skill level 2 in Charms
 34804 | Orc:3    | Gained mutation: Your vision is a little blurry. [mutagenic glow]
 34845 | Orc:3    | Gained mutation: Your body is slowly deteriorating. [mutagenic glow]
 34947 | Orc:1    | Gained mutation: You are clumsy. (Dex -2) [mutagenic glow]
 35010 | D:10     | Reached skill level 16 in Unarmed Combat
 35181 | D:13     | Lost mutation: You are clumsy. (Dex -2) [potion of cure mutation]
 35181 | D:13     | Lost mutation: Your body is slowly deteriorating. [potion of cure mutation]
 35181 | D:13     | Lost mutation: You are somewhat resistant to further mutation. [potion of cure mutation]
 35181 | D:13     | Lost mutation: Your vision is a little blurry. [potion of cure mutation]
 35538 | Orc:4    | Found Vajianiq's Assorted Antiques.
 35541 | Orc:4    | Found Kluwn's Antique Armour Shop.
 35558 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 3 in Charms
 35707 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 4 in Charms
 35984 | Orc:4    | Bought the +2 cloak of the Thief {+Fog Dam-3 SInv Stlth++} for 699 gold pieces
 35991 | Orc:4    | Bought a creamy pearl robe for 188 gold pieces
 36000 | Orc:4    | Identified the +2 robe "Tetwuwn" {rF+ Dex+3} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)
 36018 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of magic mapping for 73 gold pieces
 36102 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 36813 | Lair:1   | Gained mutation: You have an increased reservoir of magic (+10% MP). [potion of beneficial mutation]
 37141 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 5 in Charms
 37202 | Lair:2   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 37255 | Lair:2   | Noticed Erica
 37273 | Lair:2   | Killed Erica
 38010 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 6 in Charms
 38239 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 38254 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 7 in Charms
 38428 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 39852 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 8 in Charms
 40110 | Lair:5   | Noticed dnasty's ghost (powerful SpCj)
 40119 | Lair:5   | Killed dnasty's ghost
 40600 | Lair:6   | Found a dark tunnel.
 40613 | Volcano  | Entered a volcano
 41208 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 9 in Charms
 41228 | Lair:6   | Reached XP level 16. HP: 116/122 MP: 23/30
 41416 | Lair:7   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 41590 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
 41694 | Lair:7   | Noticed Snorg
 41703 | Lair:7   | Killed Snorg
 42125 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 42631 | Lair:8   | Gained mutation: Your muscles are strong. (Str +2) [potion of beneficial mutation]
 42691 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 10 in Charms
 42737 | Lair:8   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 42978 | Lair:8   | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 43126 | Lair:8   | Found a gateway to Hell.
 43136 | Lair:8   | Got an ancient shield
 43146 | Lair:8   | Identified the +2 shield of Least Resistance {Dex+2 Int+3} (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)
 43290 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 11 in Charms
 43351 | Lair:8   | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 43351 | Lair:8   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 43683 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 6 spell: Haste
 43825 | Orc:4    | Bought an uncursed amulet of conservation for 350 gold pieces
 43941 | Lair:1   | Upgraded the game from 0.14-a0-2592-g262d02f to 0.14-a0-2604-g6f603d6
 44046 | Snake:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Snake Pit
 44201 | Snake:1  | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 44402 | Snake:1  | Reached skill level 2 in Evocations
 44529 | Snake:1  | Reached skill level 3 in Evocations
 44530 | Snake:1  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 45113 | Snake:2  | Reached skill level 12 in Charms
 45230 | Snake:2  | Got a smoking buckler
 45236 | Snake:2  | Identified the cursed -3 buckler of the Abyss {Dex+4 Int+2} (You found it on level 2 of the Snake Pit)
 45272 | Snake:2  | Reached skill level 4 in Evocations
 45661 | Snake:2  | Found Nudaluxe's Armour Boutique.
 45666 | Snake:2  | Learned a level 1 spell: Apportation
 45668 | Snake:2  | Learned a level 1 spell: Summon Butterflies
 45674 | Snake:2  | Nudaluxe's Armour Boutique was a mimic.
 45921 | Snake:3  | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
 46484 | Snake:3  | Gained mutation: You radiate miasma, and are resistant to rotting and decay. [demonic ancestry]
 46484 | Snake:3  | Reached XP level 17. HP: 113/128 MP: 24/33
 47084 | Snake:4  | Reached skill level 6 in Evocations
 47089 | Snake:4  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 47090 | Snake:4  | Got a faintly glowing robe {god gift}
 47104 | Snake:4  | Identified the +2 robe of Refuge {Acc+4 Dam+3 Stlth} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 4 of the Snake Pit)
 47147 | Snake:4  | Reached skill level 13 in Charms
 48024 | Snake:4  | Reached skill level 7 in Evocations
 48242 | Snake:5  | Entered Level 5 of the Snake Pit
 48608 | Snake:5  | Reached skill level 14 in Charms
 49292 | Snake:5  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 50024 | Snake:5  | Gained mutation: You are mostly covered in sharp spines. [demonic ancestry]
 50024 | Snake:5  | Reached XP level 18. HP: 108/134 MP: 23/34
 50189 | Snake:5  | Reached skill level 12 in Dodging
 50449 | Snake:5  | Reached skill level 17 in Unarmed Combat
 50586 | Snake:5  | Got a serpentine rune of Zot
 51296 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
 51867 | Vaults:1 | Found Tois' Distillery.
 51871 | Vaults:1 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 57 gold pieces
 51871 | Vaults:1 | Bought a potion of might for 47 gold pieces
 51871 | Vaults:1 | Bought a potion of poison for 19 gold pieces
 52274 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 8 in Evocations
 52472 | Vaults:1 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 53263 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 9 in Evocations
 53269 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 18 in Unarmed Combat
 53430 | Vaults:2 | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
 53430 | Vaults:2 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
 53431 | Vaults:2 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
 54706 | Vaults:2 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 54707 | Vaults:2 | Got a faintly glowing buckler {god gift}
 54715 | Vaults:2 | Identified the +3 buckler of Weightlessness {rPois Stlth-} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 2 of the Vaults)
 55448 | Vaults:3 | Gained mutation: You have a pair of antennae on your head. [demonic ancestry]
 55448 | Vaults:3 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 117/140 MP: 27/34
 56068 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 13 in Dodging
 56076 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 19 in Unarmed Combat
 56133 | Vaults:3 | Found a staircase to the Hall of Blades.
 56322 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
 56723 | Vaults:4 | Found a flickering gateway to a bazaar.
 56733 | Bazaar   | Entered a bazaar
 56747 | Bazaar   | Found Perphaj's General Store.
 56776 | Bazaar   | Found Likhim's Antique Armour Emporium.
 56776 | Bazaar   | Found Senulorph's Book Shoppe.
 56797 | Bazaar   | Found Kauxza's Food Emporium.
 56797 | Bazaar   | Found Shrite's Food Shoppe.
 56818 | Bazaar   | Found Reirees' Antique Weapon Emporium.
 56818 | Bazaar   | Found Jyumur's Antique Weapon Shoppe.
 56883 | Bazaar   | Bought a faintly humming ring mail for 162 gold pieces
 56895 | Bazaar   | Identified the cursed -2 ring mail "Eppuciam" {Dam+2} (You bought it in a shop in a bazaar)
 56901 | Bazaar   | Bought a book of Control for 780 gold pieces
 56907 | Bazaar   | Learned a level 4 spell: Control Teleport
 56963 | Bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 32 gold pieces
 56963 | Bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 32 gold pieces
 56963 | Bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 32 gold pieces
 56963 | Bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 32 gold pieces
 56963 | Bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 32 gold pieces
 56963 | Bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 32 gold pieces
 57114 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 2 in Armour
 57280 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 3 in Armour
 57289 | Vaults:4 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 57526 | Vaults:4 | Noticed Margery
 57538 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 4 in Armour
 58277 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
 58277 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 20 in Unarmed Combat
 58311 | Vaults:4 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 58618 | Vaults:4 | Reached XP level 20. HP: 124/147 MP: 28/35
 58984 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Armour
 59093 | Vaults:4 | Killed Margery
 59093 | Vaults:4 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 59108 | Vaults:4 | Got an encrusted troll leather armour {god gift}
 59131 | Vaults:3 | Identified the -4 troll leather armour "Shiupebe" {rF++ Stlth--} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 4 of the Vaults)
 59673 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 11 in Transmutations
 59739 | Vaults:4 | Got a distressingly furry ring mail
 59755 | Vaults:4 | Identified the +4 ring mail of Terror {rN+ Dex+1} (You took it off a vault warden on level 4 of the Vaults)
 59825 | Vaults:4 | Gained mutation: You evolve. [potion of beneficial mutation]
 61258 | D:16     | Killed Saint Roka
 61258 | D:16     | Reached skill level 15 in Charms
 61260 | D:16     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 62244 | Depths:1 | Noticed Nikola
 62285 | Depths:1 | Killed Nikola
 62295 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 12 in Transmutations
 62299 | Depths:1 | Noticed Wiglaf
 62611 | D:16     | Killed Wiglaf
 63023 | Depths:1 | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium.
 63067 | Depths:1 | Noticed a storm dragon
 63176 | Depths:1 | Killed a storm dragon
 63356 | Depths:1 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 63361 | Depths:1 | Got a pair of dazzling boots {god gift}
 63365 | Depths:1 | Identified the +0 pair of boots of Jilonac {Dex+3 Acc+4} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 1 of the Depths)
 64009 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 7 in Armour
 64183 | Depths:2 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
 64198 | Depths:2 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
 64436 | Depths:2 | Gained mutation: You have a pair of large antennae on your head (SInv). [demonic ancestry]
 64436 | Depths:2 | Reached XP level 21. HP: 122/153 MP: 32/35
 64444 | Depths:2 | Gained mutation: Your mind is acute. (Int +2) [potion of beneficial mutation]
 64559 | Depths:2 | Found Moyluoty's Distillery.
 64617 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 21 in Unarmed Combat
 65147 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 8 in Armour
 65480 | Depths:2 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 65481 | Depths:2 | Got a fine leather armour {god gift}
 66501 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 22 in Unarmed Combat
 67251 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 11 in Fighting
 67364 | Depths:3 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 67466 | Depths:3 | Gained mutation: Your skin changes colour to match your surroundings (Stlth). [evolution]
 67768 | Depths:3 | Found Kooc's Jewellery Boutique.
 68042 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 12 in Fighting
 68591 | Depths:4 | Found a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss.
 68790 | Depths:4 | Gained mutation: Your magical and physical power is slightly enhanced at high health. [demonic ancestry]
 68790 | Depths:4 | Reached XP level 22. HP: 167/167 MP: 31/36
 68890 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 13 in Fighting
 69412 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 14 in Fighting
 69788 | Depths:4 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 70571 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 71726 | Depths:6 | Entered Level 6 of the Depths
 71739 | Depths:6 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 72201 | Depths:6 | Reached skill level 9 in Armour
 72474 | Depths:6 | Reached skill level 16 in Fighting
 73286 | Depths:6 | Gained mutation: Your magical and physical power is enhanced at high health. [demonic ancestry]
 73286 | Depths:6 | Reached XP level 23. HP: 183/186 MP: 26/36
 73415 | Depths:6 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 73442 | Depths:6 | Gained mutation: You can spit poison. [evolution]
 73539 | Depths:6 | Found a gate to the Realm of Zot.
 73560 | Depths:6 | Identified the +4 leather armour of Masochism {rC+ Int+2 Stlth++} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 2 of the Depths)
 73645 | Depths:6 | Reached skill level 17 in Fighting
 73645 | Depths:6 | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
 74320 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 3 spell: Flight
 74423 | Shoals:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Shoals
 74472 | Shoals:1 | Found Owual's Gadget Shop.
 74491 | Shoals:1 | Found Psikuazu's Book Emporium.
 75418 | Shoals:1 | Found Ettow's Magic Scroll Emporium.
 75527 | Shoals:1 | Found Dagecy's Magic Scroll Shoppe.
 75579 | Shoals:1 | Bought a scroll of blinking for 82 gold pieces
 75579 | Shoals:1 | Bought a scroll of blinking for 82 gold pieces
 75687 | Shoals:2 | Noticed Polyphemus
 75704 | Shoals:2 | Killed Polyphemus
 75765 | Shoals:3 | Noticed Jorgrun
 75783 | Shoals:3 | Killed Jorgrun
 75783 | Shoals:3 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 75831 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
 75894 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 2 in Translocations
 75996 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 3 in Translocations
 76151 | Shoals:3 | Noticed Mara
 76176 | Shoals:3 | Killed Mara
 76217 | Shoals:3 | Noticed Aizul
 76235 | Shoals:3 | Killed Aizul
 76235 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 4 in Translocations
 76387 | Shoals:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Shoals
 76390 | Shoals:5 | Noticed SaTaAndGee's ghost (mighty GrEE)
 76414 | Shoals:5 | Killed SaTaAndGee's ghost
 76691 | Shoals:5 | Noticed Ilsuiw
 76724 | Shoals:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
 77078 | Shoals:1 | Bought a scroll of recharging for 77 gold pieces
 77181 | Shoals:5 | Reached skill level 11 in Armour
 77279 | Shoals:4 | Noticed Donald
 77370 | Shoals:4 | Killed Donald
 77863 | Shoals:5 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 77883 | Shoals:5 | Got a fine cloak {god gift}
 77887 | Shoals:5 | Identified the -4 cloak "Khed" {Str+3 Dex+3 Int+1} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 5 of the Shoals)
 78120 | Shoals:5 | Killed Ilsuiw
 78279 | Shoals:5 | Reached skill level 12 in Armour
 78747 | Shoals:5 | Got a barnacled rune of Zot
 78894 | Shoals:1 | Bought a scroll of recharging for 82 gold pieces
 78937 | Shoals:1 | Bought a scroll of vulnerability for 105 gold pieces
 79433 | Depths:2 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 54 gold pieces
 79433 | Depths:2 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 54 gold pieces
 79433 | Depths:2 | Bought a potion of agility for 45 gold pieces
 80040 | Slime:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Pits of Slime
 80760 | Slime:2  | Reached skill level 18 in Fighting
 80858 | Slime:1  | Reached XP level 24. HP: 132/197 MP: 19/37
 81050 | Slime:4  | Reached skill level 13 in Armour
 81156 | Slime:5  | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
 81163 | Slime:5  | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
 81259 | Slime:6  | Entered Level 6 of the Pits of Slime
 81870 | Slime:6  | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
 82003 | Slime:6  | Noticed the royal jelly
 82072 | Slime:6  | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 82088 | Slime:6  | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
 82110 | Slime:6  | Killed the royal jelly
 82357 | Slime:6  | Reached skill level 14 in Armour
 82747 | Slime:6  | Identified the Reference Book on Earthen Aid
 82770 | Slime:6  | Identified the Guide on Igneous Enhancements
 82775 | Slime:6  | Learned a level 3 spell: Regeneration
 82782 | Slime:6  | Got a slimy rune of Zot
 82815 | Slime:6  | Identified Gramaiq's Catalogue of Hurtful Dark Rites
 83987 | Bazaar   | Entered a bazaar
 83987 | Bazaar   | Found Amoefo Chae's Distillery.
 83992 | Bazaar   | Found Ryibbot's Book Emporium.
 84003 | Bazaar   | Found Jeefav's Food Shoppe.
 84012 | Bazaar   | Found Naalet's Distillery.
 84048 | Bazaar   | Found Prara's Food Emporium.
 84072 | Bazaar   | Bought a book of Dreams for 750 gold pieces
 84079 | Bazaar   | Learned a level 5 spell: Phase Shift
 84087 | Bazaar   | Bought a potion of resistance for 63 gold pieces
 84087 | Bazaar   | Bought a potion of curing for 18 gold pieces
 84087 | Bazaar   | Bought a potion of curing for 18 gold pieces
 84087 | Bazaar   | Bought 2 potions of curing for 36 gold pieces
 84088 | Bazaar   | Bought a potion of agility for 22 gold pieces
 84099 | Bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 24 gold pieces
 84099 | Bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 24 gold pieces
 84099 | Bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 24 gold pieces
 84099 | Bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 24 gold pieces
 84099 | Bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 24 gold pieces
 84099 | Bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 24 gold pieces
 84099 | Bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 24 gold pieces
 84123 | Bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 36 gold pieces
 84123 | Bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 36 gold pieces
 84123 | Bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 36 gold pieces
 84123 | Bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 36 gold pieces
 84123 | Bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 36 gold pieces
 84123 | Bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 36 gold pieces
 84129 | Bazaar   | Bought a potion of curing for 30 gold pieces
 84129 | Bazaar   | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 45 gold pieces
 84129 | Bazaar   | Bought a potion of resistance for 105 gold pieces
 84129 | Bazaar   | Bought a potion of resistance for 105 gold pieces
 84985 | Zot:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Realm of Zot
 85026 | Zot:1    | Reached skill level 6 in Translocations
 85253 | Zot:1    | Reached skill level 1 in Necromancy
 85253 | Zot:1    | Reached skill level 7 in Translocations
 85288 | Zot:1    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 85292 | Zot:1    | Got a faintly humming crystal plate armour {god gift}
 85293 | Zot:1    | Identified the +3 crystal plate armour of Tenacity {MR++ Dam+3} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 1 of the Realm of Zot)
 85522 | Zot:1    | Reached skill level 2 in Necromancy
 85707 | Zot:1    | Reached skill level 8 in Translocations
 86078 | Zot:2    | Reached skill level 9 in Translocations
 86401 | Zot:2    | Reached skill level 10 in Translocations
 86913 | Zot:3    | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting
 87014 | Zot:3    | Reached skill level 19 in Fighting
 87136 | Zot:2    | Gained mutation: You digest meat inefficiently. [mutagenic glow]
 87502 | Zot:3    | Reached XP level 25. HP: 160/208 MP: 34/38
 88126 | Zot:4    | Reached skill level 20 in Fighting
 88614 | Zot:4    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 89081 | Zot:4    | Reached skill level 21 in Fighting
 89206 | Zot:4    | Reached skill level 15 in Armour
 89315 | Zot:4    | Identified the Guide on Toxins
 89434 | Zot:4    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 91303 | Vaults:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Vaults
 91596 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 22 in Fighting
 92510 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 16 in Armour
 93379 | Vaults:4 | Upgraded the game from 0.14-a0-2604-g6f603d6 to 0.14-a0-2618-g5301534
 93541 | Vaults:5 | Got a smoking copper amulet
 93762 | Vaults:5 | Gained mutation: Your magical and physical power is greatly enhanced at high health. [demonic ancestry]
 93762 | Vaults:5 | Reached XP level 26. HP: 220/224 MP: 26/39
 93857 | Vaults:5 | Identified the cursed amulet "Schuago" {Gourm Dex-2 Int+3 Acc+4} (You took it off a vault warden on level 5 of the Vaults)
 93903 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 17 in Armour
 94367 | Vaults:5 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 94854 | Vaults:5 | Identified Plideab's Volume of Attacks and Bewitchment
 94935 | Vaults:5 | Got a silver rune of Zot
 94971 | Vaults:5 | Identified Sif Muna's Catalogue of Flying Aid
 94975 | Vaults:5 | Learned a level 2 spell: Swiftness

[Galefury]

Btw, I kinda prefer crate's solution - it still put the player in an uneasy situation but leave him with more options to approach the level.

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8827e6af11f4

[Magipi]

When practically all the best players are heavily opposing this change, then why don't the developers just remove it in a flash?

[XuaXua]

What are the third rune options?

Hells (no)
Pan (no)
Abyss (has had difficulty and depth heavily increased since the days of accidentally tripping over a rune, so no)
Slime (very tough)
Vaults.

That third rune is a tough rune, much tougher by far than the first two.

[reaver]

When practically all the best players are heavily opposing this change, then why don't the developers just remove it in a flash?

That just happened. (This design is what crate rubber stamped in his second test, and nago just mentioned he thought it was worth trying)

[dpeg]

When practically all the best players are heavily opposing this change, then why don't the developers just remove it in a flash?

Because designer concerns and player concern are different. There is some overlap, but goals are not identical. [*]

On the other hand, and the V:5 issue is a good example, the two sides are not unrelated. A number of players understood the purpose of the original change and discussed it (as opposed to: trashing it because it bullshit anyway). This is great because it allows for an evolution towards a better solution!

The "in a flash" of your question is particularly telling: if a cabal of the ten best best players says no, we revert and stop thinking about it? Where would it end?
Instead, and much better actually, there is communication. And given enough time, good things can come from it.

[*] If there's interest, I can explain: in my experience, a crucial difference between how developers and (many, certainly not all) players see a proposal/commit is this: players tend to think in tems of surviveability of their characters ("is it a buff or a nerf"), and they tend to see the change in isolation and as fixed. For a designer, it might be a test balloon, a first change in a series, and it might be clear that if it's going to stay, further tweaks have to come. This is why longer explanations with lots of context are much, much better to achieve improvements than short, snotty dismissals. Crate did a really good job in this thread, for example.

[ackack]

This is why longer explanations with lots of context are much, much better to achieve improvements than short, snotty dismissals.

I agree with this, but I think part of the reason this type of feedback doesn't occur more often is that "short, snotty dismissals" feels like a good description of how criticism is generally responded to.