Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances


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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 14:18

Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

It's always bothered me that wearing heavy armor doesn't just prevent you from casting spells, it also prevents you from memorizing them. It seems both silly and tedious to have to retreat to a safe place, take off your plate armor, read a book, and then put your armor back on. Additionally, it's a bit spoilery, since it seems to be something that new players don't find obvious (there's a thread asking about it in the advice forum right now, and I was surprised when I first learned that it was true in the distant past). It also does not appear to have any meaningful effect on game play except to prevent your plate armor {Int+5} from contributing to your memorization success rate.

I assume it's the case that it works like this because it's easier to have a single function to determine spell success rates than to have one for success rates and one for memorization rates and/or to put in a bunch of conditionals based on whether the function is being called for success or memorization.

What I would propose is that in the spell success function, a new flag "for_memorization" is passed in, and when present, the spell success rate function skips the logic that calculates the impact of armor and shields. Ideally, the function would also ignore the effect of forms, but that's a smaller gain and might be harder to implement, so that's part of the proposal.

If enough people express interest, I can take a shot at coding it up.

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 14:25

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

One problem I can see with that is that people will memorize spells, try to cast them, get red miscasts and be unpleasantly surprised.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 14:34

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

why not just let players memorize spells at 100% fail rate instead? that seems a simpler and better solution to me

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 14:42

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

I'd be fine with that as well. I thought this would be less controversial.
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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 14:49

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

100% memorizing <3

It takes away the 'climb the ladder' effect of learning low spells first and training your way up, but yeah. Still have to climb that fail rate to a reasonable level. ;)

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 15:44

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Sar wrote:One problem I can see with that is that people will memorize spells, try to cast them, get red miscasts and be unpleasantly surprised.

Sounds like there should be a prompt when trying to cast red spells, especially with stat and skill drain.
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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 15:59

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Why not post the spell cast success rate instead of the memorization chance?
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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 17:07

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

XuaXua wrote:Why not post the spell cast success rate instead of the memorization chance?

It does post your spell success rate (Well your spell failure rate, really), there is no separate 'memorization chance' The game simply prevents you from memorizing a spell with a 100% spell casting failure rate.
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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 17:14

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Alternative suggestion. The only reason people memorize spells they can't cast is to train relevant spell schools right? So why not allow training spell schools as long as an appropriate book is in inventory, i.e. similar to what's done with weapons now.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 17:23

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

DracheReborn wrote:So why not allow training spell schools as long as an appropriate book is in inventory, i.e. similar to what's done with weapons now.

Because there's no reason to carry books in inventory.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 17:34

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

This is more than an inconvenience for Ashenzari worshippers, sometimes, unless you have spare !brilliance.
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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 17:41

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Hell just let you learn a spell once you've found it in a book once, does anyone ever carefully consider which books to carry until they get spell slots? Having to run to your stash to get a book is annoying and yet no one is ever gonna carry around a bunch of books to avoid it. The M screen will get quite busy but I don't think that's a big deal.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 17:42

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Igxfl wrote:This is more than an inconvenience for Ashenzari worshippers, sometimes, unless you have spare !brilliance.


Yes, that's true, and a good point. But is "cannot memorize at 100% failure" an *interesting* limiting factor, ever? Even for Ash? I don't think so.

You need to find the spell, then put in the investment to be able to use it. Those are the important and strategically interesting limitations. Having to memorize a spell you never plan to use in order to train this or that spell school is a holdover from the grim days of victory dancing (yeah I know "victory dancing" sounds nice and fun but in truth it was a very grim dance, not fun at all). Being able to memorize at 100% failure as per crate's suggestion seems like the best option. Keep the warning about the spell being extremely dangerous to cast, as well as the big red 100% failure rate on the memorization / spell screen.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 18:14

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

This can easily be handled with nothing but flavor text:

"Casting (Spell) requires somatic motions that are difficult in your armor, and likely to fail without practice. Continue memorizing? (Y/n)"

when attempting to memorize anything that will have 30% or more fail chance in whatever armor you are wearing.
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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 19:11

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Well, even if you're naked, a ghbe (to pick the start with lowest int) could probably have over 30% fail with a lvl 2 spell.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 20:49

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

I'm fairly confident that a check to see if you're wearing armor would be trivial.
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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 21:27

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Something I'd really like to see is an indication of how close you are to getting a 99% failure rate, if the spell is at 100%. At the moment there's no way to know if 100% means "I am dozens of levels away" or "I'm about to start getting a chance to succeed". That's sortof annoying because it means I don't have any idea of how much XP I'll need to get that spell working.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 21:48

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

You have a 1297% chance of failure :)
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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 22:00

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Actually, if it said something like 100% on the usual "I" screen but, when the spell is examined (by typing the appropriate letter), it said something like

Failure Guaranteed (147%)

for any spell with more than 100% failure rate, I think that would be a good, unobtrusive way of giving useful information for someone working on getting the spell usable.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 22:01

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

and into: I reckon that a patch would be pushed.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 22:03

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

I would like failure rates shown in the ?/s screen.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 22:03

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Siegurt wrote:You have a 1297% chance of failure :)


dpeg wrote:and into: I reckon that a patch would be pushed.


Not to put you on the spot, Siegurt, but....... (and as for the idea, all credit goes to Leafsnail, really)

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 22:11

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Yeah I think that's probably the simplest implementation. The only drawback is that you'd occasionally get pedants complaining about it.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 22:47

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

"Patch":
  Code:
int failure_rate_to_int(int fail)
{
    if (fail == 0)
        return 0;
-   else if (fail == 100)
-       return 100;
    else
        return max(1, (int) (100 * _get_true_fail_rate(fail)));
}

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 23:08

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Ask and ye shall recieve:
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8069

Patchitty patch patch
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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 23:19

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

duvessa wrote:"Patch":
  Code:
int failure_rate_to_int(int fail)
{
    if (fail == 0)
        return 0;
-   else if (fail == 100)
-       return 100;
    else
        return max(1, (int) (100 * _get_true_fail_rate(fail)));
}

Note that "failure_rate_to_int" isn't where the 100% gets capped (In fact this function is REALLY weird, it's only real effective function is to not round failure rates which are between 0.000001 and 0.49999999 down to 0, but round it up to 1 instead)

The actual apparent failure rate is capped in spell_fail proper, simply removing the "if failure rate is 100, return 100" clause doesn't really do much (except clip the rounding for 100% failure, which was never really relevant in the first place)
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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 23:27

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Siegurt wrote:Ask and ye shall recieve


Well, if it isn't too much trouble, I'd like a patch for a bottle of 25-year aged Bunnahabhain, a PS4, and a new printer.

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 23:50

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

and into wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Ask and ye shall recieve


Well, if it isn't too much trouble, I'd like a patch for a bottle of 25-year aged Bunnahabhain, a PS4, and a new printer.


I don't know where in the world Bunnahabhain is, but I would also like an attractive 25 year old from there.
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Post Wednesday, 29th January 2014, 00:09

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

and into wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Ask and ye shall recieve


Well, if it isn't too much trouble, I'd like a patch for a bottle of 25-year aged Bunnahabhain, a PS4, and a new printer.

I wish our local markets stocked more varieties of scotch, Judging from this: http://imgur.com/r/Infographics/1fh6eyc Bunnahabhain would be one I'd enjoy immensely.
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Post Wednesday, 29th January 2014, 13:43

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

It sounds like people are pretty supportive of the idea to allow memorization of spells regardless of failure rate. Devs: would you accept a patch for this as well?

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Post Wednesday, 29th January 2014, 14:03

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Lasty: I wouldn't mind, but I am only one guy, and more asleep than not.

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Post Wednesday, 29th January 2014, 14:25

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

"Patch":
  Code:
    if (player_spell_levels() < spell_levels_required(specspell))
    {
        mpr("You can't memorise that many levels of magic yet!");
        return false;
    }

-   if (spell_fail(specspell) >= 100 && !vehumet_is_offering(specspell))
-   {
-       mpr("This spell is too difficult to memorise!");
-       return false;
-   }
-
    return true;
}

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Post Sunday, 2nd February 2014, 18:05

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Siegurt wrote:Ask and ye shall recieve:
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8069

Patchitty patch patch


This has now been added to trunk.
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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 19:23

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

I'm sad this got reverted, I really liked it. I suppose this is the wrong place to ask, but is there any chance a patch for an rcfile option to keep it would accepted?

(I'd try and make it work on the M screen as well.)

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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 21:08

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

The reason given for reverting it was "This information was much more likely to just be confusing than to ever be helpful, with spells above 100% fail rate being so far away from being usable." I suppose the rationale for it's addition was not well understood. Makes me sad though.
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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 22:54

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Allowing you to see if a spell is far away from being usable is the entire point.
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 06:59

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

johlstei wrote:Hell just let you learn a spell once you've found it in a book once, does anyone ever carefully consider which books to carry until they get spell slots? Having to run to your stash to get a book is annoying and yet no one is ever gonna carry around a bunch of books to avoid it. The M screen will get quite busy but I don't think that's a big deal.


Your points are valid but your solution isn't. if that is implemented, books will become worthless as objects. Players will merely pick up the book and then immediately throw it back on the floor, which is something I think everyone can agree is bad game design. Yes, you'll get rid of a fairly small amount of tedium, but you'll undermine the entire point of spellbooks. The only players who would actually be inclined to pick up spell books are followers of Trog, for use as ammunition for burn spellbooks. That's pathetically ironic and strictly counter-intuitive. Why would spellbooks be more valuable to magicless brutes who worship a zealous magic-hating god than an accomplished mage who worships Sif Muna, the spellbook god? And that's not to mention how illogical it is; why would you have to "memorize" a new spell if you can recall every page from the book without looking at it?

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 07:08

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Laraso wrote:Players will merely pick up the book and then immediately throw it back on the floor, which is something I think everyone can agree is bad game design.
...That's exactly what you do now.
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 07:25

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

duvessa wrote:
Laraso wrote:Players will merely pick up the book and then immediately throw it back on the floor, which is something I think everyone can agree is bad game design.
...That's exactly what you do now.


People don't just toss it back where they found it, they keep it and put it in their stash. Currently, you need physical access to the book in order to memorize the spells it contains. If you want to memorize a spell but you don't have enough spell levels yet, you need to preserve the book until you are capable of learning it. Similarly, if you decide to forget a spell in order to memorize a new spell, you need to hang onto the book if you want to re-learn the spell at a later time. If you worship Trog, you are presented with the decision of sacrificing the books to damage enemies and raise piety, or hang onto them if you decide to switch gods later.

Your proposal would remove all of that completely. Once you pick up a book, you could then immediately throw it into lava or feed it to a jelly, and there wouldn't be any consequence (unless you worhip Sif). If all you had to do is pick up a book once to be able to learn all the spells in it, they would become functionally useless. Books would become more worthless than a scroll of random uselessness, because at least the scroll of random uselessness has a chance of summoning butterflies, while books would do absolutely nothing. They wouldn't have any purpose besides acting as firewood for Trog worshipers, who could burn every single last book in the dungeon to ashes and still be able to swap gods later on and learn any spell they want.

That, in my opinion, is considerably more boring than how books currently function.
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 07:40

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

There's really only two real states for an item, "in your inventory" and "outside your inventory". The only reason you listed that makes someone want to have a book in their inventory is Trog worshipper book burning; "preserving" the book is incredibly easy as effectively nothing will ever touch it on the ground. Furthermore, through johlstei's proposal, they'd still serve their main purpose, i.e., "you can't learn a spell until you find a book with it"; they wouldn't be rendered useless.
take it easy

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 10:06

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

People don't just toss it back where they found it

yes they do

also the book would still be exactly what it is now: a limited scroll of amnesia
that's considerably more useful than ?uselessness

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 16:17

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

duvessa wrote:
Laraso wrote:Players will merely pick up the book and then immediately throw it back on the floor, which is something I think everyone can agree is bad game design.
...That's exactly what you do now.

Yeah, this is exactly what I and many other players do. Maybe if I think I'm close to able to memorizing something but can't I'll hold onto it for a floor or two for convenience sake, but there's no reason to carry around books ever. Memorizing and forgetting spells is not an action that one does tactically (trog burning is the only such use of books) so managing it as an inventory item is completely uninteresting. I think if you introspect about what you do with spellbooks, you'll find that you don't benefit from carrying books at all beyond the minimal interfloor travel hunger cost.

Frankly, I'd be fine with killing trog burning/book amnesia as well, and stopping having books be inventory items at all - you pick one up, it gives you spells in your M screen, it's gone. Can turn up ?amnesia slightly for that. That would be a bigger change with an actual strategic impact though. I would miss the trog flavor(could still do it for books on the ground, just no more book grenades), but I think it'd be worth it. My initial proposal simply acknowledges how spellbooks are already used.

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 17:17

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

Using books for selective selective amnesia (as it were) sometimes presents interesting choices, and even functionally wouldn't be approximated by turning up ?amnesia spawn. You can always have funky RNG luck, but outside of Vehumet if you memorized the spell, you have (or had) access to the book. Forgetting via spell book destruction is an important feature for spell casters because being stuck with *no* means to remove spells can make things more difficult, but not (in my experience) in a way that is particularly fun or interesting, just frustrating. (Imagine a type of cursed item that once picked up, takes up 5 inventory slots, and cannot be removed from your inventory. It kind of feels like that.) Destroying spell books to forget makes an unfun situation into a difficult choice that potentially has real ramifications, so it is good. And Trog's book burning is cool.

Anyway, I like your proposal to let people just memorize any spells they have read, then leave the book on the floor in case you need to forget something through its consumption. I'd like to see that, memorization of spells regardless of success (with prompt and big red warning for extremely high failure spells), and the spell failure over 100% thing re-added. None of that would make magic more powerful in terms of game balance, really, but it would make it a lot less fiddly and obnoxious to play, which would be a godsend.

EDIT: Actually, dpeg made a good point about not having access to books while you are in portal vaults and Abyss and Pan, etc. So I'm going to make a new proposal that would give the best of both worlds, I hope. However it seems appropriate to do that in another thread.

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 17:29

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

As I just said in the other thread: the idea that it doesn't make a difference if you can memorise spells seen somewhere at any time is preposterous. You could be in a portal vault, or Vault:5, or the Abyss etc.

Players like to say "tedious" a lot (same with "spoilery") but I don't agree that walking to a book is too much. (As so often, I believe that really frequent players have higher demands here, but I don't think it is too bad for them either.)

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 17:53

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

dpeg wrote:As I just said in the other thread: the idea that it doesn't make a difference if you can memorise spells seen somewhere at any time is preposterous. You could be in a portal vault, or Vault:5, or the Abyss etc.

Players like to say "tedious" a lot (same with "spoilery") but I don't agree that walking to a book is too much. (As so often, I believe that really frequent players have higher demands here, but I don't think it is too bad for them either.)


Yes dpeg, I saw that post and edited mine above, I overlooked that. You are correct, however I think interface can be vastly improved. That's what can actually be tedious with memorization—I think that word is warranted. I have a proposal that I just posted in a new thread to GDD, I hope you'll support it.

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 18:02

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances

I'm a bit tired of silly things like removing all the armour, wearing wizardry and drinking a potion of intelligence to just start training for haste or such.

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Post Thursday, 13th March 2014, 19:30

Re: Proposal: make armor not affect memorization chances


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