What new race you would like to see?


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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 25th December 2010, 19:28

What new race you would like to see?

1) Ents, or any other sentient plant race. Many interesting possibilities here. Bonus for using wooden weapons, needs only water for food. Different sizes at different CL.

2) Insectoid\spider race. Seriously, so many insects as monsters and no player race?

3) Natural armoured casters... there no race with good Armour and Spellcasting .

4) Dedicated summoner\necromancer race with bad aptitudes in another magic schools

Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 25th December 2010, 19:55

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Strongpoint wrote:3) Natural armoured casters... there no race with good Armour and Spellcasting .


You should try Deep Dwarfs or High Elves.
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 25th December 2010, 21:29

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Shapeshifters.
Mostly fighter/stabber aptitudes.
Abilities:
Change form into creatures flesh of which you ate :twisted:
Ability to cure mutations loosing some amount of permanent hp ("You twist into a blob of flesh and revert back to your previous form leaving a puddle of mucus. Your genetic structure feels more pure.")

Daeva/angel
Replace demigods!
can worship only good (maybe neutral) gods.
good fighter/caster aptitudes. terrible stabber aptitudes.

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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 25th December 2010, 21:42

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Sealer wrote:You should try Deep Dwarfs or High Elves.


High Elves (-1, +2), Deep Dwarfs (+1 -1) Kenkus ( +1, 0 ) aren't much better than Mountain dwarfs (+3 -3) I want something like (+1 +2) or better. BTW it could be a good buff for High Elves

Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 25th December 2010, 21:53

Re: What new race you would like to see?

I'd love to see how an Ent-type race would interact with Fedhas :D

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Post Saturday, 25th December 2010, 22:38

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Curio wrote:Shapeshifters.
Mostly fighter/stabber aptitudes.
Abilities:
Change form into creatures flesh of which you ate :twisted:
Ability to cure mutations loosing some amount of permanent hp ("You twist into a blob of flesh and revert back to your previous form leaving a puddle of mucus. Your genetic structure feels more pure.")
How would you balance this, and how is it feasible interface- and code-wise? Note that often, monsters are far more powerful than players, but too stupid to take advantage of this, and many aspects of monster definitions would require tweaking, due to severe asymmetry (like lack of dependency on MP), and there are very few corpses in extended endgame (without going Kikubaaqudgha), so this might encourage silly behaviour like making zoos of monsters into which you want to switch for later areas.

Curio wrote:Daeva/angel
Replace demigods!
can worship only good (maybe neutral) gods.
good fighter/caster aptitudes. terrible stabber aptitudes.
Demigods don't need replacement, especially by a race that would remove much of their uniqueness (total lack of god, universal competence). The development wiki has a page on Demigods, in case you wanted to look at it.

Strongpoint wrote:High Elves (-1, +2), Deep Dwarfs (+1 -1) Kenkus ( +1, 0 ) aren't much better than Mountain dwarfs (+3 -3) I want something like (+1 +2) or better. BTW it could be a good buff for High Elves
Those are quite fine, and high elves don't need buffing. You may want to try demigods, as well; their aptitudes may not look like much, but their strength really helps with armour, and intelligence with spellcasting. I also hear hill orcs are good at heavy armour casting, so try them too. Generally, you also want to look at spell school apts, intelligence, and strength, in addition to armour/spellcasting apts.
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 25th December 2010, 23:15

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Shapeshifter needs to eat a flesh of a monster only once to "learn" transformation into that creature. So no need for keeping them alive somewhere ;)

For interface it may be only one screen with forms you can change into. Vampires do have their own blood states screen don't they?

Powerful monsters. The more HD have monster the less effect from transformation in it shapeshifter gets. For example a 20% of stats from a dragon and a weak fire breath at first. And % increase from every time SS eats the flesh of that monster (from different ones of course).

Balancing may be relied on a: satiation spent on a transformation, limited time spent in a specific form, limited number of forms memorized at a time, exhaustion after transformation and so on,

No doubt there's too much work for coding and tweaking every monster/monster group that leaves a body but hey, shapeshifters would be awesome. :D

As of Demigods...
Don't want to argue but, there's not much uniqueness in a total lack of god (you can choose willingly not to follow a god by any race) and universal competence (humans already there). Bad aptitudes and good stats balance each other out I suppose.
I saw development page already. Most everything there will change demigods almost entirely (which is good), but in present state demigods are pretty boring.
That's only my opinion.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Saturday, 25th December 2010, 23:54

Re: What new race you would like to see?

I'd like to see a two-headed species (ettin) that could worship two gods. This could be a new species or a mutation that Ogres get at high levels.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 26th December 2010, 00:46

Re: What new race you would like to see?

A slime. Terrible aptitudes, except stealth and maybe poison magic. Ability to spit poison like naga, except with no recovery (or at least significantly shorter recovery time). Innate poison resistance. Only a hat slot (maybe a cloak too - what a dashing slime!). I suppose rings and amulets could be "worn" by absorbing them and keeping them within the slime's body. Maybe a few extra jewelry slots to make up for lack of traditional gear slots. Gains maximum HP by absorbing monster corpses. Can split self to create minions, costing maximum HP. You'd have to frequently split yourself and overwhelm enemies with hordes of self-copies, so your max HP would never get too ridiculously high. You'd also have to be careful to save up max HP for areas that are low on corpses, since you'd have no way of regaining your HP in those areas.

I don't actually expect this to get implemented; I was just making it up as I went along. It actually does sound kind of neat, though.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 26th December 2010, 02:46

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Curio wrote:As of Demigods...
Don't want to argue but, there's not much uniqueness in a total lack of god (you can choose willingly not to follow a god by any race) and universal competence (humans already there). Bad aptitudes and good stats balance each other out I suppose.
I saw development page already. Most everything there will change demigods almost entirely (which is good), but in present state demigods are pretty boring.
That's only my opinion.
You may be interested to know that abstract worshipers idea is now implementable.

danr wrote:I'd like to see a two-headed species (ettin) that could worship two gods. This could be a new species or a mutation that Ogres get at high levels.
This would be ridiculously game-breaking; how would you balance it?

For Whelk, I haven't read it, but there's a wiki page on jelly race brainstorming, so you might want to look at or add to that.

Strongpoint wrote:4) Dedicated summoner\necromancer race with bad aptitudes in another magic schools
Forgot to address this one earlier, but sludge and deep elves are good at summoning and necromancy (and bad apts don't give them enough differentiation or appeal); there's no need for an overlap in that niche, without the new race having rather interesting aspects otherwise.

Strongpoint wrote:2) Insectoid\spider race. Seriously, so many insects as monsters and no player race?
wiki page for arachnid player race brainstorming


On this topic itself, doesn't it belong in Game Design Discussion (someone please move it)?

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Post Sunday, 26th December 2010, 05:27

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Re the two-headed ogre idea: this could be balanced in any number of ways. If felids with multiple lives can be balanced, anything can be balanced.

Several things:
- Ogres are currently a bit of a challenge race anyway.
- Piety gain could be slowed /halved
- Certain god combinations could be prohibited
- This misshapen freak could be unfitting of even robes or animal skins
- Occasional "crossfire" between the two gods.
- Dex penalty from two heads trying to control one body
- Make spellcasting worse.
- etc. etc.

If gods really are the shiznit, then Demigods should be broken because they get so little in exchange for not having access to gods. Most gods basically effectively give you access to a few spell-like powers.

I just think it could be a flavourful tweak on ogres. It might be a bit of a challenge to implement, and balancing would take some fine-tuning. I'm just brainstorming crazy ideas.

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 26th December 2010, 05:42

Re: What new race you would like to see?

For two-gods race, it could be made that Piety has to be shared between the two gods, so the grand total of Piety points is still 200. So for example, if you worship Makhleb and Trog at once, you can have 100 Piety points on each of the two gods.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 26th December 2010, 19:55

Re: What new race you would like to see?

I'd love to see two heads as a guaranteed high level ogre mutation not for the two gods thing but for the dual wielding component! Ogres are super difficult right now at all stages of the game, being able to rock two dire flails would once again make them awesome.
oh but who are they to judge us

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Post Sunday, 26th December 2010, 21:34

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 06:42

Re: What new race you would like to see?

4) Dedicated summoner\necromancer race with bad aptitudes in another magic schools


Kenku are +2 in summoning (best aptitude in game) and +1 in necromancy (2nd best aptitude). Mummies and Vampires also have strong summoning/necro builds.

Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 06:48

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Curio wrote:Shapeshifters.
Mostly fighter/stabber aptitudes.
Abilities:
Change form into creatures flesh of which you ate :twisted:
Ability to cure mutations loosing some amount of permanent hp ("You twist into a blob of flesh and revert back to your previous form leaving a puddle of mucus. Your genetic structure feels more pure.")

Daeva/angel
Replace demigods!
can worship only good (maybe neutral) gods.
good fighter/caster aptitudes. terrible stabber aptitudes.


Shapeshifters would be way too hard to code and balance with how Crawl handles monsters. If you want to play a shifter in a roguelike, play a doppleganger monk in SLASH'EM (Nethack variant) - it's actually pretty fun (for Nethack). I like the idea of curing mutations at a max HP cost though - sounds like a great ability for the proposed jelly race.

Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 15:50

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Someone actually made a shapeshifter patch for some ancient version of Crawl, but I can't find the page. It looked horribly unbalanced.

Also they coded a cooking patch. Enough said.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 16:31

Re: What new race you would like to see?

I, for one, would love to play a duel-wielding (Blessed katana and eudemon blade), Ashenzari/TSO worshiper! Maybe a species that can wear 10 rings. I see nothing unbalanced about that! ;)

Seriously, I find ogres fun the way they are. Ogres got easier to play in v0.6, so I don't see why people keep complaining about them. And felids (from what I've seen) aren't really balanced. They encourage sloppy/mindless playing, since they're essentially tiny trolls with better casting apts and extra lives.
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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 16:55

Re: What new race you would like to see?

It seems that some people find brainstorming crazy ideas to be a bit... offending. Or annoying. Or both.

I never thought about that, but now I've learned my lesson. :)

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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 17:00

Re: What new race you would like to see?

lucy_ferre wrote:I, for one, would love to play a duel-wielding (Blessed katana and eudemon blade), Ashenzari/TSO worshiper! Maybe a species that can wear 10 rings. I see nothing unbalanced about that! ;)

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=octopus

:(
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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 17:16

Re: What new race you would like to see?

MarvintheParanoidAndroid wrote:
lucy_ferre wrote:I, for one, would love to play a duel-wielding (Blessed katana and eudemon blade), Ashenzari/TSO worshiper! Maybe a species that can wear 10 rings. I see nothing unbalanced about that! ;)

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=octopus

:(

Wow, is that serious? :o
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Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 17:24

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Shapeshifters would be way too hard to code and balance with how Crawl handles monsters. If you want to play a shifter in a roguelike, play a doppleganger monk in SLASH'EM (Nethack variant) - it's actually pretty fun (for Nethack). I like the idea of curing mutations at a max HP cost though - sounds like a great ability for the proposed jelly race.

I suppose you re right. But a man can dream... :roll:

I think if jellies ever gonna be implemented (and with Felids already there it could be :shock: ) they gonna be immune to mutations. Because it's hard to imagine a jelly with horns or hoofs or sharp nails :)

Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 17:30

Re: What new race you would like to see?

I remember seeing a suggestion for golems that would have been sent into the dungeon by powerful wizards as a playable race. Which would also be coolly ironic, because all the characters are in a sense electronic golems anyway. At least, golems of specific flavors could be balanced. For example, a possible clay golem:

Regenerates, yet rots like a ghoul and requires eating stones to fix rotting and more rapid healing, much like a ghoul eats buchered flesh.
Poor aptitudes except maybe in earth magic.
Swimming in water causes rotting.
Can very slowly break down rocks into stones.
Can very slowly break down rock and stone walls and floors into rocks as a form of digging.
And/or make the digging and disintigration wands leave rocks or stones as a way to provide food for clay golems.
Can worship gods (presumably by having the controlling wizard worship gods) but invoking godly powers causes health rotting proportional to the magic cost of any invoked powers, due to the heavy cost of having the wizard "channel" the effects properly.

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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 17:37

Re: What new race you would like to see?

I've gotta say, I don't know if the game needs more races. There are already more possible combinations than I will ever be able to play. And I worry that it takes dev time away from other important stuff like balancing what's already there and improving the interface etc.

That said, the devs don't get paid and I'm mooching off their free work, so I'm in no position to suggest what they prioritize their time on.

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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 17:40

Re: What new race you would like to see?

RangerC wrote:
4) Dedicated summoner\necromancer race with bad aptitudes in another magic schools


Kenku are +2 in summoning (best aptitude in game) and +1 in necromancy (2nd best aptitude). Mummies and Vampires also have strong summoning/necro builds.


Yep... I agree this aren't bad combinations... But enchantments got +4 (twice) , conjurations got +3, Translocations got +4, transmutations got +3(twice) . Why necromancy and summonings have only +2 as max?
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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 21:06

Re: What new race you would like to see?

pratamawirya wrote:
MarvintheParanoidAndroid wrote:
lucy_ferre wrote:I, for one, would love to play a duel-wielding (Blessed katana and eudemon blade), Ashenzari/TSO worshiper! Maybe a species that can wear 10 rings. I see nothing unbalanced about that! ;)

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=octopus

:(

Wow, is that serious? :o


It's a serious proposal by Eronarn. He even coded it! But so far, it hasn't been really considered for inclusion by the devs.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 21:08

Re: What new race you would like to see?

danr wrote:I've gotta say, I don't know if the game needs more races. There are already more possible combinations than I will ever be able to play. And I worry that it takes dev time away from other important stuff like balancing what's already there and improving the interface etc.

That said, the devs don't get paid and I'm mooching off their free work, so I'm in no position to suggest what they prioritize their time on.


The long term goal is 27 races and 27 backgrounds! But I agree with you that there's already a lot of work with the current content and we shouldn't rush new one.
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Post Monday, 27th December 2010, 21:31

Re: What new race you would like to see?

galehar wrote:The long term goal is 27 races and 27 backgrounds! But I agree with you that there's already a lot of work with the current content and we shouldn't rush new one.

And 27 gods, of course.

However, that's a whimsical way of stating that we're open to adding content. As the history of DCSS shows, we have started by removing species rather than adding them. So we will not add species/backgrounds/gods just to achieve number 27. When we get good proposals, we're open for additions. With backgrounds, that happened when someone suggested the Arcane Marksman who met a lot of love.

Of the proposals on this page, I don't think there is one to make it into the game. We are happy to have folded Og and OM into a single, more interesting (still hard) species. (There won't be two-headed anythings... if need be, we will just remove two-headed monsters to get this point across.) I agree that the last species addition were gimmicky in the sense that they needed a lot of additional rules. (Vampires, Deep Dwarves, Felids) However, one motivation for the aptitude change (the coarser scale of -5...+5) was to spot aptitude holes better, i.e. combinations of good/bad aptitudes which are not yet used anywhere. (For that matter, new ogres try to fill one of those niches.)

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Post Tuesday, 28th December 2010, 18:09

Re: What new race you would like to see?

If races based on different aptitudes are desired more than races with unique gimmicks, why not create a race or two that uses the skill system uniquely?

For example, a cursed race whose aptitudes are randomly rolled at creation.

Or, a race whose aptitudes start a bit worse than human aptitudes but through training actually improve their base aptitudes as well as skill, and unused aptitudes become worse over time. Such a race would be an extreme example of one that become less flexible as they get more skilled.

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Post Tuesday, 28th December 2010, 22:20

Re: What new race you would like to see?

tromboneandrew wrote:If races based on different aptitudes are desired more than races with unique gimmicks, why not create a race or two that uses the skill system uniquely?

Sure, why not. Unfortunately, neither of the two ideas will work well.

tromboneandrew wrote:For example, a cursed race whose aptitudes are randomly rolled at creation.


To make players start-scum until they're blue in the face?

tromboneandrew wrote:Or, a race whose aptitudes start a bit worse than human aptitudes but through training actually improve their base aptitudes as well as skill, and unused aptitudes become worse over time. Such a race would be an extreme example of one that become less flexible as they get more skilled.


Fluctuating aptitudes are technically problematic (see a posting by galehar above), and I am not sure they gain much.

What I meant by aptitude holes is much simpler: find combinations of good aptitudes which makes some sense and are not yet used anywhere.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 28th December 2010, 23:20

Re: What new race you would like to see?

I was going to propose a few things but they've already been covered, more or less :)

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html#bad_ideas
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Post Tuesday, 28th December 2010, 23:51

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Bloody hell, that's a long list. I guess it really all has been done before.
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Post Wednesday, 29th December 2010, 04:13

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Okay, I'm going to try to come up with a brand new idea...

hmm....

You know what, I'd rather be playing right now! Once I've mastered the existing species I'll come looking for new ones.

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Post Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 19:23

Re: What new race you would like to see?

danr wrote:Okay, I'm going to try to come up with a brand new idea...

hmm....

You know what, I'd rather be playing right now! Once I've mastered the existing species I'll come looking for new ones.


My aim at the moment ;) 4 to go!

There's enough very different races already :)

In fact, I may put together some kind of diagram to show where races overlap. Mi and HO, while different, aren't *that* different :)
Go kiku!

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Post Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 19:53

Re: What new race you would like to see?

I'd like to see a completely new race with no special gimmicks, just attributes in an interesting combination that isn't already covered by an existing species.

Of course i dont have any specific proposals but if you guys came up with more ideas along that line i bet they would be much more likely to take the ideas seriously :)
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Post Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 22:33

Re: What new race you would like to see?

You mean, like a human, but just really good at something in particular like summoning or something?
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Post Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 23:06

Re: What new race you would like to see?

While watching an old Tick episode, what about a moleman? Can dig like boulder beetles and gets benefits of being in rock like rock worms (but not complete immunity, that's dumb - advantages like merfolk in water).

Probably somewhere on the 9,726 list of bad ideas, but hey...
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Post Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 23:30

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 20:01

Re: What new race you would like to see?

How about elemental people a la the genasi from D&D? Start out with a high magic attribute for their element and gain a single + in resistance at a high level? Or conversely, have a permanent + in their corresponding element, but a permanent - in the opposing one?

Of course there would have to be four new races for this, and draconians already kind of cover this sort of thing, so... Why did I post this? Perhaps to create a new entry for #badideas?

goo

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Post Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 20:10

Re: What new race you would like to see?

Lugh wrote:How about elemental people a la the genasi from D&D? Start out with a high magic attribute for their element and gain a single + in resistance at a high level? Or conversely, have a permanent + in their corresponding element, but a permanent - in the opposing one?

Of course there would have to be four new races for this, and draconians already kind of cover this sort of thing, so... Why did I post this? Perhaps to create a new entry for #badideas?


You could have an "elemental" race with very high fire/ice/earth/air aptitudes but only so-so spellcasting and spell school attributes. Not sure if that would be any good but it's an aptitude spread that hasn't been done yet. Maybe a zero in spellcasting, +1 in conjurations, very low aptitudes in the other schools.

EDIT: I take that back, maybe make Transmuting and Enchanting at zero, since many air and earth spells use these schools. Necro/summon/translocation should all be very low though. Then you could have a race that focuses primarily on elemental magic. I'm sure you can then add in some other gimmicks like intrinsic race mutations or something for flavour. Low armour and dodging apts but a small amount of innate rF, rC, and rElec?

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