Nemelex reform


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Post Thursday, 30th January 2014, 19:03

Re: Nemelex reform

and into wrote:Probably making decks weigh less would be sufficient, but you could give Nemelex worshipers an ability to sacrifice decks that they really don't want or aren't going to use (like plain decks of escape when you already have several ornate or legendary ones). "Reabsorbing" these decks would give some piety and decrease deck gift timeout, but at a rate such that, say, sacrificing 4 or 5 unwanted decks gets you 1 new one, on average. (That is, assuming the sacrificed decks have all, or nearly all, cards. The actual decrease to deck timeout should depend on total number of cards sacrificed.)


I'm pretty sure this already exists: it's called "drawing all the cards in them" and probably gives a better rate than that.

Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 30th January 2014, 19:11

Re: Nemelex reform

wheals wrote:
and into wrote:Probably making decks weigh less would be sufficient, but you could give Nemelex worshipers an ability to sacrifice decks that they really don't want or aren't going to use (like plain decks of escape when you already have several ornate or legendary ones). "Reabsorbing" these decks would give some piety and decrease deck gift timeout, but at a rate such that, say, sacrificing 4 or 5 unwanted decks gets you 1 new one, on average. (That is, assuming the sacrificed decks have all, or nearly all, cards. The actual decrease to deck timeout should depend on total number of cards sacrificed.)


I'm pretty sure this already exists: it's called "drawing all the cards in them" and probably gives a better rate than that.


Then make it give the same rate so that the best way to deal with decks you no longer want doesn't involve tediously spam-drawing them. Just give an ability "Reshuffle" that sacrifices a deck and gives you the same average piety and deck gift timeout as if you had used each card.
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 30th January 2014, 19:58

Re: Nemelex reform

I think, with the removal of decks of dungeon, a lot of the spamming-for-the-sake-of-spamming practices will go away as well. It was the only deck really worth standing around and emptying; you want to use summoning and destruction, and wonders requires some drawing and stacking.

Of course, this still leaves the mysterious and poorly documented mechanic behind how Nemelex piety is gained through card usage, which makes people spam plain and ornate decks in the late game to stay at 6* or whatever. I really enjoyed my Nemelex game, but I could see a freshly designed version being an interesting opportunity.

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Post Thursday, 30th January 2014, 22:19

Re: Nemelex reform

Actually once I've got decks-a-plenty I tend to spam all non-legendary decks (Why would I use an ornate or plain deck in combat when I have 4-5 legendary decks of the same category?)
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Post Thursday, 30th January 2014, 23:02

Re: Nemelex reform

Sar wrote:So is there any reason not to walk around and throw junk cards at every enemy, apart from it being terribly boring?
Sure. You may find the reason to be very much non-compelling, but here we go: when Haran and I redid Nemelex, we wanted to get away from the previous cycle of "sacrifice items for a long while, then use decks under carefully controlled conditions". We wanted that you should use decks and the risks that come with it early on. In other words, some piety gain should come from card use, not from items. This is hard to get right (i.e. easy to scum); we were aware of that and never happy with the outcome. But going back to sacrifice-only was out of the question.

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Post Thursday, 30th January 2014, 23:08

Re: Nemelex reform

I was asking the poster who suggested a mechanic of throwing cards at enemies to make them turn into decks:
TeshiAlair wrote:CYC idea: You can either evoke a deck, or you can use an ability to gambit style throw a card at an enemy, marking it and doing some damage. Marked enemies have a high chance of turning into a deck on death, with a 100% chance if it is the last card in a deck. The deck gotten is based on the enemies items (so counts as a corpse sacrifice if it is a non-weaponed enemy, even chance if it is an corpse dropping enemy with a weapon, etc)

Sorry if that was not clear.

I know that you can get piety for just drawing cards, but I never did that. I use cards on enemies, and if I get a plain deck I won't go and start drawing it in a safe spot, I'll throw it away because I have better things to do. In theory, getting piety for just drawing cards is problematic and making them require a target can in theory lead to using them in trivial fights being optimal, but eh, I don't have a strong opinion on that. I enjoyed my Nemelex runs.

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 19:32

Re: Nemelex reform

Well, I dunno about piety gain or anything, but this idea I have would gear for towards Nemelex's "gambling" flavor. Right now, you're not really gambling at all... sure the decks feature a random set of cards within a specific parameter but there's no real gamble there.

I had this idea where, instead of saccing items for decks and the type of item affecting the deck type, we put nemelex on a gift timer starting at *... when it's time for a gift nemelex offers you a gamble? Lets say for example he asks you to pick one of 4 cards (which are unknown to the player or "face down") the type of card you randomly chose would then dictate the type of deck you'll be gifted at that moment. No more item saccing/scumming. Type of deck relies solely on chance, each deck type will be weighted towards different probabilities of appearing when it's time to gamble... With growing piety deck will start to lean towards ornate and then legendary.

Or another idea I had was starting at * piety you gain the ability to draw a card from Nemelex's deck (could be every card in the game or almost every card, perhaps remove wrath cards), this would come at a magic and hunger cost. The chances of drawing any given card are totally random (hence the gamble). With growing piety you'lll be offered ways to alter the chances...

Those are my basic ideas that remove item saccing. What do yall think?

Sar

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 19:41

Re: Nemelex reform

It's a bit of a gamble because you can get "this card doesn't seem to belong here" occasionally (I was drawing some combat deck once and got Genie (acquirement), that was unexpected and nice). Also, if you use Draw Four on a deck and it has less than 4 cards Nem will mix in one card, which can be really bad. Of course, I usually don't draw blindly in really dangerous situations, so yeah.

King_jelly wrote:Lets say for example he asks you to pick one of 4 cards (which are unknown to the player or "face down") the type of card you randomly chose would then dictate the type of deck you'll be gifted at that moment.

That's something that should be automated if it relies on chance.
King_jelly wrote:starting at * piety you gain the ability to draw a card from Nemelex's deck (could be every card in the game or almost every card, perhaps remove wrath cards)

If you remove really horrible cards from that deck, I can see trying that ability. Then again, weird that you have both physical decks Nem gifted to you and also some god-deck.

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 19:45

Re: Nemelex reform

Sar wrote:It's a bit of a gamble because you can get "this card doesn't seem to belong here" occasionally (I was drawing some combat deck once and got Genie (acquirement), that was unexpected and nice). Also, if you use Draw Four on a deck and it has less than 4 cards Nem will mix in one card, which can be really bad. Of course, I usually don't draw blindly in really dangerous situations, so yeah.

King_jelly wrote:Lets say for example he asks you to pick one of 4 cards (which are unknown to the player or "face down") the type of card you randomly chose would then dictate the type of deck you'll be gifted at that moment.

That's something that should be automated if it relies on chance.
King_jelly wrote:starting at * piety you gain the ability to draw a card from Nemelex's deck (could be every card in the game or almost every card, perhaps remove wrath cards)

If you remove really horrible cards from that deck, I can see trying that ability. Then again, weird that you have both physical decks Nem gifted to you and also some god-deck.


Yeah I thought it would be interesting to literally have every card at your disposal that nemelex would gift normally but no real way of accessing them reliably until higher piety.

With the ability that I mentioned I think Nemelx would still have to keep the conduct of not liking wasteful card usage, to avoid silly spamming. I mean other than this I can't really think of a way to avoid item saccing for decks.

Perhaps some sort of black jack mini game or something?

Or what if we completely overhaul Nemelex and base his abilites around Tarot decks? Those have tons of flavor.

But yeah, removing one of the most unique and interesting god in this game would be a pity, I'd probably stop downloading new versions or somehow keep him coded in the game.

Sar

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 19:52

Re: Nemelex reform

He does have a conduct to prevent wasteful spamming (as in, drawing plain destruction at your stash for piety)? Wasn't it removed at some point because if you really wanted to draw that destruction you could find a rat and draw it next to it or something? Not that I see any real point in doing that, it's boring.
Item sacrifices are bad but then again, so are body sacrifices. Auto_sacrifice might be a band-aid applied to a flawed system, but it works for me.

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 19:59

Re: Nemelex reform

Sar wrote:He does have a conduct to prevent wasteful spamming (as in, drawing plain destruction at your stash for piety)? Wasn't it removed at some point because if you really wanted to draw that destruction you could find a rat and draw it next to it or something? Not that I see any real point in doing that, it's boring.
Item sacrifices are bad but then again, so are body sacrifices. Auto_sacrifice might be a band-aid applied to a flawed system, but it works for me.


auto sacrifice sounds more annoying than anything... it'd be like Jiyva but worse.

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 20:03

Re: Nemelex reform

Hm well, I do use the modified rc, but I remember even default one stopping when a new item comes into view. Besides, the only things you may want that are not on auto-pickup are weapons and armours, right? There is an annoying glitch which will auto-sacrifice stuff that is on auto-pickup if your inventory is full (without stopping autoexplore, even!), but other than that it really is not that bad. Can't remember sacrificing something I wanted across my 3 Nem dudes, apart from one randart ring due to glitch I mentioned.

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 20:32

Re: Nemelex reform

You can set auto_sacrifice = before_explore to make there not be a prompt, but pressing 'o' will automatically sacrifice things on your square. It's possible you need some form of greedy_explore set.

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 21:15

Re: Nemelex reform

To be honest, I haven't read through all the responses. This is because I think the initial proposal is fantastic.
I find Nem tedious for exactly the reasons outlined, and this would help significantly without changing the flavour of the god too much.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 11:30

Re: Nemelex reform

Nemelex is my favorite god.. And I somehow like manual sacrifices and never found them tedious..
Though if many players find the idea tedious, the propositions from first post are neat (especialy the 2* ability rework).
Just don't remove him!
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Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 22:55

Re: Nemelex reform

We're talking about abstracting the sacrificing process, but has there ever been any thought given to abstracting the deck process as well?

Drawing a card as an ability could draw randomly from a list of all card effects without relying on inventory management. Abilities like looking at the next "card" to be drawn, drawing three and picking one, and so on would still have a desired effect.

This would be taking Nemelex in a far more unreliable direction than the current system of "reward micromanagement with powerful effects," but if the consensus is that the god is overpowered, making him more of a legitimately "unpredictable trickster god" might be appropriate.
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Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 23:01

Re: Nemelex reform

wizzargh: So decks of cards would be completely virtual things that only exist on the ^ screen? This doesn't solve my issues with Nemelex but it's a good idea!
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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 02:25

Re: Nemelex reform

Exactly.

As for the piety issue that arises if sacrifices are not relevant and cards are unlimited, I also had two ideas to solve that.

1. Using card-draw to gain piety has a chance of drawing from the Deck of Punishment that is inversely proportional to the amount of tension. So trying to scum piety in meaningless situations yields hostile summons, banishment, famine, and similar punishment. I'm sure people could still exploit this and get to max piety though, which led me to my second idea.

2. Nemelex has no piety, and card power is entirely skill-dependent, with some randomization. I would worry that this approach might make Nemelex too much like an Active Ability Xom, but I think card effects+Nemelex's ability to somewhat influence the outcome and Xom effects are distinct enough to make them remain unique. Also, limiting card draws to be based on available MP would limit the overpowered Nemelex ability to drown most lategame challenges with wielded decks. Currently, Nemelex piety is practically unlimited anyway, so I don't think this change is as radical as it may initially appear.
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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 02:43

Re: Nemelex reform

wizzzargh wrote:Exactly.

As for the piety issue that arises if sacrifices are not relevant and cards are unlimited, I also had two ideas to solve that.

1. Using card-draw to gain piety has a chance of drawing from the Deck of Punishment that is inversely proportional to the amount of tension. So trying to scum piety in meaningless situations yields hostile summons, banishment, famine, and similar punishment. I'm sure people could still exploit this and get to max piety though, which led me to my second idea.

2. Nemelex has no piety, and card power is entirely skill-dependent, with some randomization. I would worry that this approach might make Nemelex too much like an Active Ability Xom, but I think card effects+Nemelex's ability to somewhat influence the outcome and Xom effects are distinct enough to make them remain unique. Also, limiting card draws to be based on available MP would limit the overpowered Nemelex ability to drown most lategame challenges with wielded decks. Currently, Nemelex piety is practically unlimited anyway, so I don't think this change is as radical as it may initially appear.


When a god idea is proposed with lackluster piety gain rules, my usual suggestion is to invent a new piety rule and tweak the god's flavor to fit. Nemelex is a trickster god who gifts followers with magical cards inspired by tarot decks. What might such a god want? Surely there's got to be some piety idea in there that's more thematically fitting than cosplaying a Roomba; I don't think we need to scrap the entire idea of piety for Nemelex quite yet.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 02:51

Re: Nemelex reform

Instead of removing decks entirely, what if Nemelex gave you a single deck you could add cards to? Maybe the piety mechanic could be changed to one that involves the amount of cards you've got in that deck. You gain piety by using cards in the deck, but the only way to replenish the deck is to spend piety at 6*. This would require a rethinking of the god's abilities, but it seems like it might work.

Though I'll add, again, that I thought Nemelex was perfectly playable and not grossly overpowered. Maybe that just shows what I know about game design.

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 02:57

Re: Nemelex reform

archaeo wrote:Instead of removing decks entirely, what if Nemelex gave you a single deck you could add cards to? Maybe the piety mechanic could be changed to one that involves the amount of cards you've got in that deck. You gain piety by using cards in the deck, but the only way to replenish the deck is to spend piety at 6*. This would require a rethinking of the god's abilities, but it seems like it might work.


How many cards would be necessary in the starter deck, or how much piety would each card use have to provide, to make it all the way to 6* without running out?

Though I'll add, again, that I thought Nemelex was perfectly playable and not grossly overpowered. Maybe that just shows what I know about game design.


I think the thing is that Nemelex can become overpowered but only if you're willing to put in the tedious effort.

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 22:54

Re: Nemelex reform

On the subject of making Nem go away, Ash is the god of Divination and all things related right? Why not have Ash inherit one or two of the "View X of a deck" abilities or even the "Draw" mechanics if it so happens that Nem gets scooped? Seems like it'd be a natural thing. Of course the idea of "cursing a deck" doesn't really make much mechanical sense, but at least thematically I think it could fit.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 22:57

Re: Nemelex reform

Because Ash is already a great god geared towards more passive playstyle.

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 23:02

Re: Nemelex reform

A big part of the motivation for removing Nemelex, for me, is that it allows you to follow up by removing decks.

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 23:05

Re: Nemelex reform

duvessa: Absolutely, but it seems that the general appeal of this move is limited. :) I tried to explain, but failed.

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 23:39

Re: Nemelex reform

Here is something I dreamed up on the bus:

Nemelex is reflavoured as the "Divine Referee". The celestial gallery that watches Crawlers bores easily; Nemelex's job is to keep them entertained by making Crawlers' lives difficult. He assigns random restrictions on your behavior as conducts; if you hew to the restriction for the prescribed period, he gifts deck and piety.

Restrictions might include: no consumable use; no wand use; random Mesm; no up-stair use; no magic school use. The duration of the restriction might be based on time, exp gain, exploration, or something more granular and possibly dynamically generated. Restrictions could be weighted according to severity and deck rewards would scale equally.

Nemelex worshippers can still use piety to make decks more deterministic. Maybe they could also spend piety to influence deck selection, or maybe deck selection is determined by the kind/severity of restrictions you successfully fulfill.
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2014, 01:37

Re: Nemelex reform

nicolae wrote:How many cards would be necessary in the starter deck, or how much piety would each card use have to provide, to make it all the way to 6* without running out?

I've removed my comment here in favor of a new thread entirely to discuss a full Nemelex reform proposal; mods can feel free to pop that back in here, if desired.
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