Ambushing

[Syneil]

Hi there,

Just bandying about an idea, where my main concern re: DCSS philosophy is the "no-brainer" issue.

I envision an "ambush" concept whereby if you have waited at least one turn, you can attack an enemy appearing in range with a bonus of some kind. This could be used to run from an enemy (non-adjacent), hide around a U-bend, wait for it to appear and then clobber it. Alternatively, "prepare" attacks (melee, ranged or magic to avoid imbalance) on a particular tile and execute the attack with increased accuracy as soon as an enemy appears there. I like this as a tactic one might genuinely employ should one be unfortunate enough to be cast into a dangerous dungeon with magical denizens... ahem.

Syneil

[crate]

You already want to do exactly what you describe extremely often "despite" it not having any bonus (other than being really good positionally). Why does it need to be better?

So I mean, yeah, you'd use this ambush ability, but that's not actually a good thing design-wise.

[Syneil]

We do the first type of thing I described to avoid ranged/smite attacks and force enemies into mêlée range; what I'm suggesting is to simulate enemy surprise - them expecting you to have continued to flee. This could reduce with creature intelligence, and allow enemies to do the same (making corner skipping less desirable).

The second idea is different; I propose activating an ability (through 'a' or otherwise) selecting an action and a target square and then resting (like with searing ray) until an enemy steps onto that square which will trigger the action - with appropriate bonus(es).

[Sar]

For simulating unaware monsters there is stealth and unaware-stabs.
I don't like second proposal because it's an active melee ability and those are usually not good.

[TeshiAlair]

What about at increased Fighting, you got a slight malus for fighting enemies the second you see them, but the longer you fight (say, 5-10 turns or so), you accrue a slight bonus that decays over time. This would slightly deter just running from every fight, encourage training fighting beyond getting health, and have a similar effect to what you describe, perhaps even giving a slight stab effect to enemies that briefly duck out of visibility.

[Sar]

encourage training fighting beyond getting health

Getting health is not enough of a reason?

[nago]

Furthermore, usually fighting is trained to give tab more dam and acc - I don't think it need to copy song of slaying

[and into]

What about at increased Fighting, you got a slight malus for fighting enemies the second you see them, but the longer you fight (say, 5-10 turns or so), you accrue a slight bonus that decays over time. This would slightly deter just running from every fight, encourage training fighting beyond getting health, and have a similar effect to what you describe, perhaps even giving a slight stab effect to enemies that briefly duck out of visibility.

I like that you often make bold and original suggestions for things that could be added, but I don't think this idea would work well as a component of fighting. For one thing, getting more, rather than less, of a malus or penalty of any kind (even situationally) as the game progresses and you get more experience, is not good. You don't ever want to disincentivize getting experience, per se—you just want the relative cost/benefit ratios to change. It actually leads to more interesting choices that way. Training more of a skill should always be a positive, that way the question always is, "how much good am I getting from training more of this, compared to training more of that?" Putting in multiple overlapping effects, some negative and some positive, tends to create breakpoints and encourage min-maxing strategies. (At least, from what I've seen in other games, this seems to be the case.)

(To some, Chei gets worse as you gain piety. That's arguable; however gods are special, and in general are allowed to bend the rules a bit.)

Anyway, losing the malus, I think that encouraging "chaining" could be a fun mechanic. But it is already there with song of slaying, and it seems the kind of thing that works better as a spell or as part of a divine effect, rather than something that is always in play.

[TeshiAlair]

I should clarify, increased fighting would decrease the base malus and increase the base bonus.

As for increasing HP, I personally think the HP increase from fighting should be shifted more to race choice and level up. It is one of the more blatant spoilery things still in the game- I played for ages before I realized that fighting increased HP, plus it is very unintuitive that an apparently offensive skill is most important as a defensive one. Even "fighter" playstyles will focus on weapon aptitude over Fighting.

(I also find song of slaying rather janky/gimmicky for what it's worth)