Amnesiac wrote:Probably no use to argue with devs, but I just can't keep silent, when you say "it's milestone", "it's pantheon" without providing real points for the gameplay
Game play is not the *only* consideration, and no good arguments have been made for why game play would be improved by removing Temple (particularly from you). Bart's posts come the closest, but I think the possibility that the Temple has tough guys around it creates (possibly) interesting tension. The same can be said for when a strong unique or nasty band of enemies are hanging out around entrance to Lair. The existence of staircases in the game, in general, creates these possibilities and it is a good thing. So that counts as a point in favor of keeping Temple, in my view. (I'll address the aesthetic considerations in a moment, but let's continue with game play for a bit longer.)
The above is just one example, but I suspect that having a large number of altars condensed in one area (the ET), with overflow altars guaranteed by D9 (sometimes with neat little vaults), plus some flat chance of random altar (vault) spawning, gives better variation, game play choices, and replay value than just having random altars would. Some of the ET designs might leave something to be desired but that can easily be fixed by designing new Temples.
Religion is a big factor in Crawl and it is nice that you *know* that if you can survive to D7 you are extremely likely to get choice of any god you want. It gives a nice balance of having a strategic or longer-term goal in mind, while also presenting possible challenges to that plan. "So you want to worship Okawaru—but are you sure you wouldn't worship Zin if you get the altar from D2?" In that situation it is good to know that you can take Zin on D2, but also know that if you make it to Temple, which could be as early as D4, you have a very high chance of getting to worship Okawaru. The tension between planning and new opportunities is more interesting game play in that situation compared to just having it be random. If altar spawning was random, you would nearly always want to worship the first halfway decent god you come across. That's often the case now, but the guarantee of Temple early on means that it is sometimes non-suicidally stupid not to worship the first strong god you come across. You could shorten the range of levels over which those random altars spawned—but in that case I think you would be inviting pretty big changes to game balance, which shouldn't be made willy nilly. Finally, I also think having Temple is better for letting people experiment with new gods. It gives much more significant bundling of gods than random spawn would, and so when someone is good enough with a certain species and/or background that they can get to Temple fairly reliably, I think it makes one a bit more willing to try out a new or unorthodox choice amongst this wide range of options you are presented with all of a sudden.
In terms of aesthetic and flavor:
The early vaults are interesting in part because they are somewhat exotic. If you were running into vaults for the 18 or 19 gods (and that number will probably go up over time) constantly, then the altar vaults would get pretty dull. You can add new ones, but the period of excitement and novelty from any new ones added would be really short. Right now, you run into probably something like one altar a level, on average. That seems exciting and fun, and it makes sense to want to see them more, but I think part of what makes those dungeon features neat is precisely that they aren't
too common or widespread. I really doubt it would seem so exciting and fun if you were running into 4 altars or altar vaults per level, on average, throughout the early game. In
every game.
"Milestone" isn't the correct word, perhaps, but the ET does correctly give a sense of the importance of religion in Crawl. In terms of flavor it works really well, because it matches the game play. Which is what flavor tries to do in Crawl, to tie together its aesthetic with the game play. Not to offer rationales on the basis of concerns regarding realism. So the "why are the gods all hanging out?" question is entirely beside the point, to my mind.
Removing temple would ultimately
detract, not add, to the novelty of overflow altars and vaults, and since increasing one's enjoyment of those has really, as I see it, been the only reasonable justification offered for removing temple, I think it is best if it stays.