Character overview and Resists

[Curio]

Firstly, I didn't found anything on the dev-wiki.
Secondly, I don't propose to crush old system to build new one. I just wonder about significance of some game design decisions concerning resists.
And if something is not fit right for me - I just want to hear your opinion, which maybe will justify it for me.
Anyway, let's begin


Res.Fire /Res.Cold - Perfect. You feel usefulness of every pip of this resists and adviced to have at least 1 * at all times with maxed out for a special encounters (Ice caves, Volcanoes, Dragons, Drakes etc.)

Life Prot - This one...well, not so much usable for me. And not only for me I suppose. Personally I think, three pips of such resist is too much. I rarely even use two at the same time. At most it's only one. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, I don't know. But I better will have some other resist than Life prot.
All in all, life prot feels inferior and doesn't deserve whole three levels of resist.

Res.Acid - This one is new. I don't even noticed it's appearance until late builds I've played. I didn't found a single item yet that have res.acid and wonder why it have yet another three levels of resist. Maybe, I'm missing something, but what for Res.Corr needed then? [speculation]It protects only items from degradation while Res.Acid protects health of a character from acidic attacks? Acidic attacs inflicted only by all kinds of jelly and some drakes/draconians?[/speculation]
I would be glad if someone explained purpose of this Res for me.

Res.Poison. - Hoo boy. Poison res. deserves a whole topic, because as stated many times by other people - right now it's more like "poison immunity". Poison source is very common in the dungeon, and ability to nullify so many sources by 1 pip is wasted tactical/decision potential.
In my opinion, it deserves three levels and stands in a line with Fire and Cold resistance by importance.

Res.Elec. - Someone mentioned that r.elec needs more pips, because you either nearly-immune to it or die horribly in explosion of sparks. Personally for me - this one fits perfectly for electricity/lightning theme. But only if there will be no more such bi-polar powerful effects.

Sust.Abil. - too rare on randarts and rings better used for something else, so having two pips is overkill. Also very situational.

Res.Mut. / Res.Rott - Fine by me. The only thing I wonder about - does anyone found something that provides resist to rot? Because I yet to find randart with Res.Rott., 'cos there is no rings or amulets that protects from this effect.

Saprovore - I don't even know why it displayed in this screen. It cannot be changed by items in any way - only by mutation (and I'm might be wrong about this) and belongs better in Abilities and Mutations screen along with all kinds of innate features as fur, metabolism or running speed.

Gourmand/See.Invis./Res.Corr/Clarity/Spirit.Shd/Stasis/Ctrl.Tel./Lev./Flight. is fine with one pip.

Warding - same as with sust.abil - It's good to have but very situational. Also, most of the time you will get only one pip with amulet anyway.

I repeat, this is only my overview of resists. I would gladly hear out what you think about this, where you agree or disagree with me and maybe there's gonna be some use of this topic.

[MrMisterMonkey]

Just adding some substance here:

According to learndb, "Negative energy deals 66%, 33%, 0% with positive resistance."
and there aren't many monsters with scary negative energy attacks
for when these monsters are present, though, it indeed matters for characters without decent EV, if they don't mind going down a few experience levels

Yes, acid resistance helps with HP loss from acid damage.
You get it from yellow scales and rCorr stuff and stuff.

Having two pips of Sust.Abil can matter in necro miscast territory (mostly Tomb) and for heavy crystal ball of energy usage, since they both do a good deal of stat drain.

Rotting resistance comes from being undead (necromutation provides)
vampires get it at Thirsty

Warding isn't very good, since it only protects from melee attacks, and most dangerous stuff from summoned monsters isn't melee.

[Kate]

Zin provides rot resistance too.

Saprovore changes to show if you have gourmand.

Levitation seems like a weird one to show on the % screen, since that's almost purely a temporary effect and is displayed as a status light anyway.

[MrMisterMonkey]

Zin is kind of funky since it's a you.piety/MAX_PIETY chance and there's only one pip to show it.

[Zicher]

Firstly, I didn't found anything on the dev-wiki.
Secondly, I don't propose to crush old system to build new one. I just wonder about significance of some game design decisions concerning resists.
And if something is not fit right for me - I just want to hear your opinion, which maybe will justify it for me.
Anyway, let's begin


Life Prot - This one...well, not so much usable for me. And not only for me I suppose. Personally I think, three pips of such resist is too much. I rarely even use two at the same time. At most it's only one. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, I don't know. But I better will have some other resist than Life prot.
All in all, life prot feels inferior and doesn't deserve whole three levels of resist.

Res.Acid - This one is new. I don't even noticed it's appearance until late builds I've played. I didn't found a single item yet that have res.acid and wonder why it have yet another three levels of resist. Maybe, I'm missing something, but what for Res.Corr needed then? [speculation]It protects only items from degradation while Res.Acid protects health of a character from acidic attacks? Acidic attacs inflicted only by all kinds of jelly and some drakes/draconians?[/speculation]
I would be glad if someone explained purpose of this Res for me.

Res.Poison. - Hoo boy. Poison res. deserves a whole topic, because as stated many times by other people - right now it's more like "poison immunity". Poison source is very common in the dungeon, and ability to nullify so many sources by 1 pip is wasted tactical/decision potential.
In my opinion, it deserves three levels and stands in a line with Fire and Cold resistance by importance.

Res.Elec. - Someone mentioned that r.elec needs more pips, because you either nearly-immune to it or die horribly in explosion of sparks. Personally for me - this one fits perfectly for electricity/lightning theme. But only if there will be no more such bi-polar powerful effects.

Sust.Abil. - too rare on randarts and rings better used for something else, so having two pips is overkill. Also very situational.

Res.Mut. / Res.Rott - Fine by me. The only thing I wonder about - does anyone found something that provides resist to rot? Because I yet to find randart with Res.Rott., 'cos there is no rings or amulets that protects from this effect.

Saprovore - I don't even know why it displayed in this screen. It cannot be changed by items in any way - only by mutation (and I'm might be wrong about this) and belongs better in Abilities and Mutations screen along with all kinds of innate features as fur, metabolism or running speed.

Gourmand/See.Invis./Res.Corr/Clarity/Spirit.Shd/Stasis/Ctrl.Tel./Lev./Flight. is fine with one pip.

Warding - same as with sust.abil - It's good to have but very situational. Also, most of the time you will get only one pip with amulet anyway.

I repeat, this is only my overview of resists. I would gladly hear out what you think about this, where you agree or disagree with me and maybe there's gonna be some use of this topic.

Life prot. is of little use against most enemies and of heavy use against certain enemies. First, at three pips it nullifies draining attacks. Second, more important in the post-endgame, it slightly lowers torment damage (which is 50% of your current HP, lowered by 5% for each pip) and I personally think that this is well-balanced. I'd want to keep the state as is.

rA+ is granted either by being a yellow draconian or, much more notably, by wearing a cloak of preservation. IIRC, amulet of rCorr does grant rA+ as well (correct me if I'm wrong).

rPois means poison immunity against everything except Poison Arrow. Thus, I agree - putting rPois to a level similar with draining attacks (and making it a bit more common on randarts) would make sense.It would also mean that monsters with rPois would need a bit of rebalancing, and Poison Arrow would need it as well.

rElec is about the same. Levelling this with rF and rC would be fine, the rarity of rE+ then should be similar to how it's now.

All of this is IMHO, of course .

[galehar]

Generally, you seem to think more important resistances should have more pips. I don't think it's good design. Now, on to specifics.

rN, rElec and sust.Abil have been greatly commented by others.

rA was added because yellow scales provide it but don't provide rCorr (would be silly to have your scales protect your gear). You don't need to have 3 pips to do slime, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't see the cumulative effects of the amulet of rCorr and the cloak of preservation (both provide rA and stack) or the progressive resistance awarded as yellow scales grow. It also helps to show that the amulet protects against damage which isn't obvious given its name.

For rP, I don't like the idea of moving it to 3 pips. Poisonous threats are early in the game, you need the resistance soon, and sometimes you don't find it. Of course, I agree that it shouldn't provide immunity. It's been discussed on the wiki to make rP give only 90% resistance, and I think it's a great idea (a bit like rElec). Only undeads (and lich form) should be immune to poison. We can make it 2 pips then (90% and immunity), but no stacking. 2 sources of rP doesn't make you immune, only being undead can. It's a bit inconsistent with the other resists so that might confuse players.

rMut is problematic. It's been discussed a bit on the wiki. The resist mutation resistance can provide 66%, 90% or immunity. Zin gives between 75% and 100% resistance. The amulet gives 90%. They work separately, so each has a separate chance to protect. I'm tempted to move it to a 3 pips system, but we have the same problem as rP, no stacking, so different behaviour than the other resists.

Resist Rotting and Saprovore are the only 2 on this screen that can't be gained from gear, so I think they should be removed. Both can live happily in the A screen.

If we do change rP and rMut to several, non-stackable pips, we can make the interface use * instead of +, and explain it in the manual. That way, players will immediately see the difference and understand more easily that those resistances don't stack like the others.

[Curio]

Yes, acid resistance helps with HP loss from acid damage.You get it from yellow scales and rCorr stuff and stuff.

rA+ is granted either by being a yellow draconian or, much more notably, by wearing a cloak of preservation. IIRC, amulet of rCorr does grant rA+ as well (correct me if I'm wrong).

So, basically, you can get rA+ by being a specific race with a chance 1/9 and wearing a specific cloak (which gives you three bonuses at the same time: Resist corrosion, preservation and acid resistance). And still you will have 2 pips out of three. With amulet of RCorrosion it's gonna be 3 pips but then again it's not very clear that it will provide such a resistance and it will have two uses which is quite overpowered.
With three levels of this resistance I see same future of uselesness as Life prot.

Having two pips of Sust.Abil can matter in necro miscast territory (mostly Tomb) and for heavy crystal ball of energy usage, since they both do a good deal of stat drain.

Having two levels of resist for this very special cases is quite needless I think. I mean - it could be merged into one level with same characteristics as two right now - nothing of value will be lost.

Rotting resistance comes from being undead (necromutation provides)vampires get it at Thirsty

Even though rotting resistance can only be changed during the game by casting Necromutation, it's necessary to have it somewhere because nothing else in the game tells you that you have rotting resistance. Moving it to the mutation screen sounds reasonable, it's consistent with torment immunity that way (only available to undead, only displayed on the mutation screen).

Oh, so it's very much like a saprovore - you either have it from the start or don't. Zin being a lone exception.

Warding isn't very good, since it only protects from melee attacks, and most dangerous stuff from summoned monsters isn't melee.

Another reason to wonder why there is two levels of it.

Saprovore changes to show if you have gourmand.

Maybe displaying Gourmand all the time would be sufficient.

Levitation seems like a weird one to show on the % screen, since that's almost purely a temporary effect and is displayed as a status light anyway.

Now that you mention it, I very much agree - wasted space on a useless information.

rPois means poison immunity against everything except Poison Arrow. Thus, I agree - putting rPois to a level similar with draining attacks (and making it a bit more common on randarts) would make sense.It would also mean that monsters with rPois would need a bit of rebalancing, and Poison Arrow would need it as well.

I think monsters already have their own multileveled poison resistance system.

rElec is about the same. Levelling this with rF and rC would be fine, the rarity of rE+ then should be similar to how it's now.

Meh, then it's gonna be no different from basic two Fire/Cold. Fire is notable for also burning scrolls, Cold - for shattering potions, Electricity - for freaking shocking you to death. If there's gonna be 3 levels for El.res it will lose whole it's charm, and gonna be more similar to "vanilla-resists" from classic RPG's - all the same, only depends which of all and how many you have at the same time.

[Curio]

ninja-ed and timed out at the same time, so sorry for double post.

rN, rElec and sust.Abil have been greatly commented by others.

Yes, but what are your opinions? You see point in reducing multiple levels of this stats?

rA was added because yellow scales provide it but don't provide rCorr (would be silly to have your scales protect your gear). You don't need to have 3 pips to do slime, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't see the cumulative effects of the amulet of rCorr and the cloak of preservation (both provide rA and stack) or the progressive resistance awarded as yellow scales grow. It also helps to show that the amulet protects against damage which isn't obvious given its name.

Well, it's just as with Lev. - almost always it will be 0-1 pips. I mean, having 3 pips displayed with only one mean of gaining * for each is quite redundant. Also, item description should be changed (if they not already) because I didn't know the sources of rA until explanation. There's a very slim chance players will notice correlation between cloak of preservation and rA in-game.
Lastly, cloak becomes very powerful with cumulative 3 effects becoming more like a randart than ego-item.

Only undeads (and lich form) should be immune to poison. We can make it 2 pips then (90% and immunity), but no stacking. 2 sources of rP doesn't make you immune, only being undead can. It's a bit inconsistent with the other resists so that might confuse players.

It's very refreshing move from classic 3-pip-immunity case. I think it actually could work.
Is it gonna be **-90% and * -45%?

rMut is problematic. It's been discussed a bit on the wiki. The resist mutation resistance can provide 66%, 90% or immunity. Zin gives between 75% and 100% resistance. The amulet gives 90%. They work separately, so each has a separate chance to protect. I'm tempted to move it to a 3 pips system, but we have the same problem as rP, no stacking, so different behaviour than the other resists.

Maybe I'm missing a poit completely, but if there's gonna be 2 or, gods forbid, three levels of rMut, chance of generation of rMut on randarts should be increased significantly.

Resist Rotting and Saprovore are the only 2 on this screen that can't be gained from gear, so I think they should be removed. Both can live happily in the A screen.

Aaaaand Lev, as was mentioned by Marvin

If we do change rP and rMut to several, non-stackable pips, we can make the interface use * instead of +, and explain it in the manual. That way, players will immediately see the difference and understand more easily that those resistances don't stack like the others.

Or just mention in subtle way in item description that complete immunity cannot be achieved through item use

[galehar]

ninja-ed and timed out at the same time, so sorry for double post.

rN, rElec and sust.Abil have been greatly commented by others.

Yes, but what are your opinions? You see point in reducing multiple levels of this stats?

No. I didn't bother commenting, because I agree with what other said. It's not because getting 3 pips of rN is rarely useful that we should reduce it to 1. Same with sust.Abil.

Well, it's just as with Lev. - almost always it will be 0-1 pips. I mean, having 3 pips displayed with only one mean of gaining * for each is quite redundant. Also, item description should be changed (if they not already) because I didn't know the sources of rA until explanation. There's a very slim chance players will notice correlation between cloak of preservation and rA in-game.
Lastly, cloak becomes very powerful with cumulative 3 effects becoming more like a randart than ego-item.

Yes, it's rare to have rA higher than 1. And then? Is it a reason to reduce it and hide game mechanism? The scales don't give just one pip. You get rA at mutation level 2 and rA++ at level 3. Anyway, I don't understand what is problem. It's not like we don't have room on the screen for +++. However, it's true that the cloak should tell about rA.

Only undeads (and lich form) should be immune to poison. We can make it 2 pips then (90% and immunity), but no stacking. 2 sources of rP doesn't make you immune, only being undead can. It's a bit inconsistent with the other resists so that might confuse players.

It's very refreshing move from classic 3-pip-immunity case. I think it actually could work.
Is it gonna be **-90% and * -45%?

err... I'm not sure what you mean by classic 3-pip-immunity case, but rF+++ and rC+++ don't provide immunity. About rP, you misunderstood. I suggest *=90%, **=immune. Wearing 2 rP rings is the same as wearing one. Only way to get ** is to be undead.

rMut is problematic. It's been discussed a bit on the wiki. The resist mutation resistance can provide 66%, 90% or immunity. Zin gives between 75% and 100% resistance. The amulet gives 90%. They work separately, so each has a separate chance to protect. I'm tempted to move it to a 3 pips system, but we have the same problem as rP, no stacking, so different behaviour than the other resists.

Maybe I'm missing a poit completely, but if there's gonna be 2 or, gods forbid, three levels of rMut, chance of generation of rMut on randarts should be increased significantly.

You are missing the point. I'm suggesting to just change the interface, not how the resistance work. *=66% (provided by the rMut mutation), **=90% provided by the amulet, ***= immunity (provided by mutation at level 3). Zin would move from * to *** depending on piety. And sources aren't stackable. If you have the mutation at level 1 and the amulet, you're still at **.

[casmith789]

rPois isn't too strong because it isn't too useful. Many characters go through zot and most other areas of the game without rPois because it can be nullified by the huge stack of healing you've built up and it just makes sense using an extra rF+. Adding extra levels would make it almost never worth using.

rElec could be boosted to more than one level - it wouldn't matter in most cases - electric attacks are so rare it would only really matter vs nikola.

[ryak]

You are missing the point. I'm suggesting to just change the interface, not how the resistance work. *=66% (provided by the rMut mutation), **=90% provided by the amulet, ***= immunity (provided by mutation at level 3). Zin would move from * to *** depending on piety. And sources aren't stackable. If you have the mutation at level 1 and the amulet, you're still at **.

Wouldn't that be confusing? I thought these effects actually do stack. Not linearly, of course, but don't you get the check against the mutation and then the check against the amulet?

I don't know if its possible but it might make sense to go to a more precise scale. something like:
*<=74%
**=75%-82%
***=83%-91%
****=92%-99%
*****=immunity

This would be based on your total effective chance to get mutated. So if you had 2 sources stacked, you would multiply them out [1-(1-P1)*(1-P2)]. Get whatever percent resulted and use the corresponding * value.

[dpeg]

I second everything that galehar has said. (In particular, I support moving rRot and Sapprovore to A, and Lev elsewhere, too.)
My main gripe with % is that different * symbols mean different things. This occurs already between rF and rN. Now, I don't propose to change how rF or rN work (I think both are fine, with the rF/rC nerfs and the rN boost of recent DCSS versions) but it'd be nice if the % screen could indicate the differences. One way would be to write "immune" whenever imunity is achieved (e.g. for Poison if undead, and for rN if at ***).
I don't think we want scales of length more than three in the % screen. If rMut is changed as indicated by galehar, then the *** will be sufficiently close to how the other resistances work, in my opinion.

[galehar]

I second everything that galehar has said.

Thanks

One way would be to write "immune" whenever imunity is achieved (e.g. for Poison if undead, and for rN if at ***).

How about just changing the colour? We already have red for vulnerability and green for resistance. Let's use white for immunity.
In this proposal, stuff that can reach immunity level are rN, rP and rMut.
Also, about rRott, I forgot about Zin. If we remove it from the % screen, we can't move it on A. Would it be enough to put a line on the ^ screen and print a message when piety threshold is reached?

[dpeg]

galehar: We're free to always do the following with the more esoteric intrinsics:
(a) If religious, move to ^ screen and announce when piety threshold is reached (intrinsic gained/lost). Since we will want to list such intrinsics in the % screen, we could add a ^ line below @ for passive god powers
(b) Save space in %'s resistance tableau and add a string to the @ line (or add another line for that purpose)

[dolphin]

For rP, I don't like the idea of moving it to 3 pips. Poisonous threats are early in the game, you need the resistance soon, and sometimes you don't find it. Of course, I agree that it shouldn't provide immunity. It's been discussed on the wiki to make rP give only 90% resistance, and I think it's a great idea (a bit like rElec). Only undeads (and lich form) should be immune to poison. We can make it 2 pips then (90% and immunity), but no stacking. 2 sources of rP doesn't make you immune, only being undead can. It's a bit inconsistent with the other resists so that might confuse players.

What do you mean by 90% rP? 9 times out of 10 you don't get poisoned? Or something kobold-like, where you recover from poison more quickly?

[galehar]

For rP, I don't like the idea of moving it to 3 pips. Poisonous threats are early in the game, you need the resistance soon, and sometimes you don't find it. Of course, I agree that it shouldn't provide immunity. It's been discussed on the wiki to make rP give only 90% resistance, and I think it's a great idea (a bit like rElec). Only undeads (and lich form) should be immune to poison. We can make it 2 pips then (90% and immunity), but no stacking. 2 sources of rP doesn't make you immune, only being undead can. It's a bit inconsistent with the other resists so that might confuse players.

What do you mean by 90% rP? 9 times out of 10 you don't get poisoned? Or something kobold-like, where you recover from poison more quickly?

This.

[ryak]

What's the objection to allowing it to stack like any other resist, exactly? I don't really see the problem with stacking. If you're really concerned, why not make it a full 3 ticks. Pretty much noone is going to go to the trouble to find and wear 3 pieces of rP just to get immunity and if they do then what's wrong with letting them?