The Tavern

I was a bit surpised to see statues coming to life in one of the Lair:8 end vaults (dire elephants, no less). Are there other places or situations in Crawl where statues can come to life? Are 'regular' statues no more mere dungeon decorations? Will there be statue traps à la Nethack in Crawl? Should statues come to life more often in Crawl? I find it strange if this is the only place where it happens, possibly there are other similar vaults?

I guess I don't like how this particular vault advocates reading spoilers. There is no reason for the player to expect that killing the anaconda will turn dire elephant statues to life.

That particular vault is bad yes. Did you know it also hides an item behind trees? This is the only place in the game where an item is hidden behind trees, and you cannot see it, and there's not really any indication that it's there--except if you've read the .des file.

I did wonder why there are spaces completely blocked by trees. Thanks for the tip, now I have to find some means to change the scenery. (Also have to find a way for my DgAM to kill those dire elephants, Hexes get resisted and blink-shooting with a +3, +4 bow of flaming just didn't seem to cut it. I guess I'll go and buy that wand of cold (12).)

crate wrote:That particular vault is bad yes. Did you know it also hides an item behind trees? This is the only place in the game where an item is hidden behind trees, and you cannot see it, and there's not really any indication that it's there--except if you've read the .des file.

Nah, there's a Crypt:$ map with a building hidden behind trees, though I seem to remember you saying you didn't ever go in Crypt. Not to mention the dozens of vaults with things hidden behind walls. Not that I'm disagreeing with your main point -- Crawl isn't Metroid -- but it's not entirely uncommon, though most of the "secret" stuff is in extended (see: Pan Lord vaults, Tar endings, etc.).

That said, the elephant Lair ending really does feel especially cheesy; I'd almost like it better if it was more like the iron golem Dis map, where you entered a large space with several statues and they all awoke as soon as you opened the door. There's just too much going on in that vault, between the doors and the anaconda and the forest loot. I like it, it has good flavour and I've enjoyed playing through it, but I can see where it'd be criticized.

I quite like the idea of having a vault where enemies spawn behind you, would there be some way to communicate the fact that the elephant statues are going to animate?

Hidden stuff is great and rewards the observant. There are at least 2 sewer portals with secret areas you can reach, one of which is hinted at by a different wall tile.

Dungeon Crawl really isn't meant to be an exploration game though, so I'm not on the lookout for strangely coloured wall tiles. This applies particularly when I have instant-autoexplore on.

Hidden stuff in vaults mostly just rewards people who read spoilers.

Leafsnail wrote:Dungeon Crawl really isn't meant to be an exploration game though, so I'm not on the lookout for strangely coloured wall tiles. This applies particularly when I have instant-autoexplore on.

Hidden stuff in vaults mostly just rewards people who read spoilers.

They got rid of secret doors, so that's your solution right there.

I've not read one spoiler yet.
- The crypt forest is kind of obvious because there is a stone wall out of place in the forest.
- I noticed that most Sewer portals have a semi-secret area and you either need to levitate or blink, or be observant or all three.
- I found the item in the Dire Elephant forest by accident, digging to avoid the elephants. Any item I've discovered there has never broken a game.

XuaXua wrote:They got rid of secret doors, so that's your solution right there.

Hidden compartments you have to dig/burn into have secret doors in all but name.

XuaXua wrote:I've not read one spoiler yet.
- The crypt forest is kind of obvious because there is a stone wall out of place in the forest.
- I noticed that most Sewer portals have a semi-secret area and you either need to levitate or blink, or be observant or all three.
- I found the item in the Dire Elephant forest by accident, digging to avoid the elephants. Any item I've discovered there has never broken a game.

You wouldn't see any of these things if you were using instant-autoexplore, as a lot of people do. And you won't think anything of the clues if you're not constantly looking for metroidvania style hints everywhere (even though there are almost none). I don't think exploration games are bad, but Dungeon Crawl really isn't one.

I would also point out that in spite of doing this anaconda vault probably over a dozen times I've never known about the item hidden behind the tree (because trees never hide items anywhere else). Thanks to the spoiler I've just read I will be better equipped in future games. That clearly goes against one of the minor design goals.

I like the added depth that these sort of vaults bring, but don't like it if there is no sign or clue for it (eg the item hidden in the forest).

It could be made much better (and give room for more creativity with vaults) if some sealed doors could have a custom warning. Something along the lines of "The door depicts a thief crushed by elephants, Enter?".

Leafsnail wrote:
XuaXua wrote:You wouldn't see any of these things if you were using instant-autoexplore, as a lot of people do. And you won't think anything of the clues if you're not constantly looking for metroidvania style hints everywhere (even though there are almost none).

Counterpoint:
I found all of these, I use instant explore, I have no idea what metroidvania is.

All I use is auto-explore. I use it so much, I had to turn off auto-eat because I even use auto-explore to run from monsters!

1010011010 wrote:I like the added depth that these sort of vaults bring, but don't like it if there is no sign or clue for it (eg the item hidden in the forest).

I think the added complexity and spoilers isn't worth it. Yes it adds some minor depth, but we could add far more by adding a new scroll or potion or monster. (Or making a poor one of those better).

1010011010 wrote:It could be made much better (and give room for more creativity with vaults) if some sealed doors could have a custom warning. Something along the lines of "The door depicts a thief crushed by elephants, Enter?".

It's still a spoiler because it's hard to tell what that means. Does the door summon one or two elephants? Are you locked in the room until you defeat the elephants? Do you have time to ninja away the items before the elephants arrive? Is the message just flavor? etc. In order to completely remove the spoilers, the door would have to say "If you enter here the elephant statues will immediately come to life."

I found a -1-3 eveningstar of draining in a vault that ressembles an abandoned Crazy Yiuf hut, on d:4 or 5 :lol:

I almost did not go in there, because of some toadstools blocking the door. was glad I did ^^
things like that make crawl a better game, IMO.

I love that vault, abandoned forge IIRC. The thing is, there is a difference to read "Partially explored" message, notice a toadstool, move into it a couple of times and get you reward and realize that you need to burn some trees (something you do not usually do) it a very specific spot to get a (typically good) item.

Sar wrote:I love that vault, abandoned forge IIRC. The thing is, there is a difference to read "Partially explored" message, notice a toadstool, move into it a couple of times and get you reward and realize that you need to burn some trees (something you do not usually do) it a very specific spot to get a (typically good) item.

It'd be one thing if you could see the item through the trees, but if it's completely invisible without knowing it's there, that's not great.

one does not get the "partially explored" message if the item is behind a tree? then is not good. you should have some hint about the presence of secret spots.

Hirsch I wrote:one does not get the "partially explored" message if the item is behind a tree? then is not good. you should have some hint about the presence of secret spots.

If you can see the item through the trees, then you get a message about not everything being reachable. But the secret item in the elephant statues vault isn't visible at all, because it's behind several layers of trees, so as far as 95% of players will know, it's just a big clump of trees off in a corner.

https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/3974a1938aaa1a0c95641173239d97ba0cd3241d

Code:: Unhide a hidden item in due_jungle_book The item surrounded by trees is now at least visible without reading the vault desc.

Yay.

Sar wrote:https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/3974a1938aaa1a0c95641173239d97ba0cd3241d

Code:
Unhide a hidden item in due_jungle_book The item surrounded by trees is now at least visible without reading the vault desc.

Yay.

it's a christmas miracle!

Neat.
The first time I burnt those trees =Robustness was waiting behind them.

The Tavern

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