Vine Stalkers.

[Igxfl]

I just took a VSMo^Ash through most of Lair and Orc. Regeneration seems to make pumping defenses a very powerful strategy despite the poor apts, though Ash obviously helped with that a lot. It was probably a good move to choose poor defensive apts for this reason; it makes deciding how much to train those skills a more interesting choice.

The manavamp bite seems geared towards casters at first glance, but combined with spirit shield it might be just as suited to providing even more regen for melee brutes. I haven't tried a more thoroughly hybridized character like Sk/Tm/Ne, but this species might do very well casting a bunch of buffs pre-combat and trying to grab all the mana back in melee. Heavy casters will probably want to avoid difficult melee regardless, and heavy warriors might not blow through much MP anyway.

[goo]

Love the way this race plays. They feel very strong (Maybe even OP) but being unable to heal with pots/wands is a pretty big downside which I think might be enough to balance them out.

My only nitpick is with the flavor. Vines/plants don't exactly conjure up thoughts of magic draining bites and mana shields. Not sure what those two things have in common really. The name is also kind of bland and generic. Of course I don't have any better suggestions though. This is also a really minor nitpick, I think this is a great race.

[nilsbloodaxe]

So, Triffids?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffid

[duvessa]

Just call them stalkers.

[goo]

The whole symbiote thing and the emphasis on biting and vines/tendrils makes me think of Venom from Spiderman.

A random idea I had, maybe when their MP is drained and their HP reaches a certain threshold (say 20-25% of their max, could be lower) their host body is destroyed. When this happens they lose their spirit shield and rot resistance, and start suffering rotting and stat loss at a rapid rate. The become an amorphous blob of vines/tentacles/whatever and can no longer maintain a solid form, leading to all of their armor and weapons melding into their body like a transfiguration spell. In this form they get some new mutations to compensate (say constriction for instance since it fits with the vine theme, not sure which mutations exactly to give them). The only way to stop/cure the stat loss/rotting and regain your form is to kill a foe and then inhabit it's body as your new host/power source. Since they feed off magic, killing a demon or undead would work for this too (and also not make this race worthless in extended.) This would fit pretty well with the "parasite" flavor (needs a host body to survive) and would add a lot of very tense moments when you bite off more than you can chew. Thoughts?

edit: This might seem like a downside, especially stacked with their lack of normal healing, but I think the race as is is currently very strong and could use something like this to not only balance them out but help differentiate their play style more from ghouls and trolls.

[Quazifuji]

My only nitpick is with the flavor. Vines/plants don't exactly conjure up thoughts of magic draining bites and mana shields. Not sure what those two things have in common really. The name is also kind of bland and generic. Of course I don't have any better suggestions though. This is also a really minor nitpick, I think this is a great race.

Agreed. I don't play too frequently, but I check out trunk every once in a while to see what's new. When I logged on and saw Gargoyles, it was obvious they'd be guys with good natural armor, probably some sort of flight, etc. Did a quick lookup on the wiki, and all traits were intuitive and I got an idea of what the race was all about. A similar thing happened with Djinni - the permaflying spellcaster specializing in air and fire magic who uses a combined HP and mana pool fit very intuitively with the flavor. Formicids also worked well - ant people who are small and perma-stasissed due to their attunement with the earth, but can weild things disproportionate to their size and dig - fits with what I'd expect from an ant person.

So I logged on and saw Vine Stalkers, and thought "Plant people, cool - not sure what they'll do, but I'll check it out". I figured, you know, probably good at earth magic, probably weak to fire, maybe slow, "Stalker" implied stealth... still not really sure what the main draw or novelty would be, though. So I looked them up on the wiki, and find out they get Guardian Spirit, fast regeneration, and a mana draining bite. Huh? Why the hell are plan people biting things, draining mana, and shielding themselves with it? At no point in my life have I ever associate "plants" and "fangs" together, and I've never felt a particularly strong connection between plants and mana in fantasy settings either. The regeneration and "no potions or wands" effects fit with the plan concept, at least.

That's not to say the flavor isn't there, and the detailed description helps, but do most people read that? While I think it's okay for a race to have subtle mechanics, and not every race needs to fit perfectly into a standard fantasy trope, I still think the name and brief description should give most people (at least people familiar with fantasy settings) some idea of what to expect from a race. And Vine Stalkers don't at all. I'm just not sure where the connection between "mana draining bite and a mana shield" and "plant-humanoid symbiote" comes from.

I'll admit that I don't have a better idea, and the gameplay and flavor concepts are both really cool on their own. But I'm feeling a strong lack of any intuitive connection between them.

[dck]

The wiki is wrong, they're not unbreathing.

[Bloax]

At no point in my life have I ever associate "plants" and "fangs" together, and I've never felt a particularly strong connection between plants and mana in fantasy settings either.

I take it you've never played Spelunky?

[coolio]

Agreed that "vine stalker" is a crummy name / flavour. How about theming them after illithids / mind flayers?
They're well known from and are associated with strong unarmed attacks that drain mana (brain sucking tentacle mouths) and with mana as life force (they're psionic).

The downside is that they are a cliché D&D monster and Crawl tends to generally shy away from that stuff.

EDIT: If we take a suggestion from the development wiki, the race could be provided with an interesting nerf in that instead of eating it needs to feed on brains i.e. kill intelligent enemies. Animal intelligence would be less satiating.

[Sar]

So you get to Lair and then just starve? Or you just need to "eat" everything? Or you "eat" automatically in melee? I'm sorry, but that sounds more like an annoyance to me.

[coolio]

Well, most stuff does have brains so a complete lack of food wouldn't be a problem.

However, I admit fiddling around with how food works is more trouble than its worth. Seeing as this is only a small flavourful add, too much stuff would require balancing for very little gain.
Besides, the food metagame tends to be an insignificant part of the game except for certain player characters.

Nevertheless, I stand by my suggestion. Unlike "vine stalkers", mind flayers are an established thing from fiction, one which people would recognize and, more importantly, intuitively connect with the race's abilities.

[Galefury]

Wooo, bikeshedding. Awesome.

Edit: Oh right, content and not derailing the thread and all that. I think the flavor is fine. It's okay to be original. One might even say it's good to have some original content!

[coolio]

You don't see a problem here?

So I logged on and saw Vine Stalkers, and thought "Plant people, cool - not sure what they'll do, but I'll check it out". I figured, you know, probably good at earth magic, probably weak to fire, maybe slow, "Stalker" implied stealth... still not really sure what the main draw or novelty would be, though. So I looked them up on the wiki, and find out they get Guardian Spirit, fast regeneration, and a mana draining bite. Huh? Why the hell are plan people biting things, draining mana, and shielding themselves with it? At no point in my life have I ever associate "plants" and "fangs" together, and I've never felt a particularly strong connection between plants and mana in fantasy settings either. The regeneration and "no potions or wands" effects fit with the plan concept, at least.

That's not to say the flavor isn't there, and the detailed description helps, but do most people read that? While I think it's okay for a race to have subtle mechanics, and not every race needs to fit perfectly into a standard fantasy trope, I still think the name and brief description should give most people (at least people familiar with fantasy settings) some idea of what to expect from a race. And Vine Stalkers don't at all. I'm just not sure where the connection between "mana draining bite and a mana shield" and "plant-humanoid symbiote" comes from.

The other trunk characters just 'connect' better with the gameplay mechanics: Djinni are magical spirits and have a single pool for hp & mp. Formicids do ant stuff - they're strong and they dig holes. Even lava orcs make more sense.
The implications from "vine stalker" are "stealthy plant". What you do not get are the important mechanics "this dude regenerates fast, sucks mana and has mana for health". Admittedly, the mind flayer suggestion does not cover
all the bases either, but it comes closer. Plus it has the benefit of familiarity.

Even though flavour stuff like this is just the "label" you put on it and doesn't make any difference from a gameplay perspective, it's still often important to the person playing the game. Remember the outcry when they removed mountain dwarves?

[Sar]

Formicids do ant stuff

ants are quite famous for being unable to teleport

[coolio]

ants are quite famous for being unable to teleport

Ever try teleporting an ant?

[WalkerBoh]

If the only criticism is flavor, that means this is a pretty damn good species. Flavor is literally the last and least important consideration here.

[Tiktacy]

Formicids do ant stuff

ants are quite famous for being unable to teleport

My teacher just told us her kid got leukemia and I'm sitting here trying not to laugh at this. I feel like a terrible person.

Anyway, I think this species is pretty cool, I only played it for a few minutes, but it seemed pretty neato.

[dck]

@Tiktacy: What the fuck, well you are.

Anyway, I've actually conducted a moderate amount of research in real life over the last week on a pretty decent number of people, some haven't played a videogame in their life, others are avid rl players. Literally none of them had any problem understanding the concept on their own and if anything the only thing that was notable about their conclusions from the race was that a number of them decided this is some sort of sentient vine that needs to take over the body of others to turn into its full on magical predator form.
None of the rl players also had any problem understanding that it doesn't have plant resistances or stuff because it's a symbiont and there are none of those in dcss so hey felt there's no standard to meet.

That research aside, there have obviously been many more players (perhaps not belonging to such a varied spectrum) exposed to VS online, and obviously there have been a number of complaints about it or I wouldn't be addressing this. I frankly don't see any reason to change the theme further and I don't think this issue deserves more time than I've already dedicated to it.

PS: For some background on the research, to be respectful with everyone's time I basically just gave them a card with of a bunch of races (namely Hu, Ko, Ha, Fo, Dr, VS, LO, Op and Dj) with the blurbs from the character selection screen and then another one with the actual mutations and resistances that they were to check afterwards.
People I asked had a lot more trouble understanding why Ha are rMut, Fo can't teleport, Dr can be slowed by cold but Op can't, LO/Dj can be poisoned or that Op aren't slow on land than anything regarding VS, although it's true a number of them expected some sort of fire weakness.

[and into]

I think the vine men are cool. I like it when Crawl takes archetypes from other games or media and gives it a makeover, rather than sticking so closely to the usual tropes. That should be applauded. I don't think flavor is unimportant, and in fact I generally like Crawl's style here, where a lot of the significance behind species' characteristics is left to the imagination, rather than putting in some heavy-handed rationale.

[Roderic]

The name is also kind of bland and generic. Of course I don't have any better suggestions though. This is also a really minor nitpick, I think this is a great race.

How about mandrakes?

[Viashino_wizard]

If they were to get a new name, it could be one that plays up the parasite/symbiote aspect. Something along the lines of vampire vines, leech vines, possibly involving a pun on the word 'sap.' Though personally I think Vine Stalkers works well enough as is.

[XuaXua]

Broccolini ?

[pubby]

@dck
I'm going to trust your research on this one, and it seems you're adamant about keeping the current flavour. My only comment is that the name could be easily changed without changing the concept. I think that coming up with a new and unique name that is not composed of preexisting words would be beneficial. Let the flavour text and abilities define them, rather then letting the words "vine stalker" define them.

[goo]

If the only criticism is flavor, that means this is a pretty damn good species. Flavor is literally the last and least important consideration here.

I agree, and I'm the one who started this convo. I don't want the flavor talk to sound like whining, I really like playing this species. It's a fun race. VsMo of mahkleb is my favorite at the moment.

[XuaXua]

These guys are great for unarmed!

[psyshvl]

Regarding the name, calling them Maneaters would help to convey the idea of them being plant monsters with a bite attack, though that wouldn't cover the whole anti-magic bite / guardian spirit aspect of the species. Calling them Mana/Magic/Spirit/Sapper Maneaters would cover all of those aspects, although the first two sound a little silly due to alliteration.

[XuaXua]

If they are plant creatures, I would expect two things:

1) bonus piety from Fedhas
2) extra power from using the tree-form potion: potion of lignification(?).

Otherwise, these guys are sort of the opposite of Deep Dwarves (which, apparently represent all Dwarves in the crawl-universe now). Therefore, we can just make them the ACTUAL opposite of the Dwarves and call them Elves! (Delves?)

[Viashino_wizard]

If they are plant creatures, I would expect two things:

1) bonus piety from Fedhas
2) extra power from using the tree-form potion: potion of lignification(?).

Otherwise, these guys are sort of the opposite of Deep Dwarves (which, apparently represent all Dwarves in the crawl-universe now). Therefore, we can just make them the ACTUAL opposite of the Dwarves and call them Elves! (Delves?)

Vine Stalkers renamed to Broccoli Elves

There's not really a precedent for gaining bonus piety because your species is thematically appropriate. Undead races don't get bonus piety with Yred/Kiku, for example.

[and into]

I think "Vine Stalkers" is fine, for the record. But if people really want a different name, then (kind of in line with Formicids, etc.), I'd suggest:

Viraflors

Vir — Old French meaning "man"
Flors — Latin for plant / flower

Plus nice pun with "virus," which implies something like the symbiote aspect.

Also: Please, no bonus to Fedhas worship, no extra effects from lignification.

Please keep in mind this thread is (thus far) still in GDD...

[coolio]

Can we at least come up with a less generic name than 'vine stalker'?

For example:

How about mandrakes?

This would be a pretty good name for a mana-hungry plant-man. There's a rationale here: Besides kinda looking like people, mandrakes have been traditionally associated with magic and mysticism.
Besides, it fits with the motif Crawl has where it adopts relatively obscure real-world things for monsters (bog bodies, quokkas, agate snails etc.)

I guess you could even go with the latin 'mandragora' if you want to a fancier name.

Joke suggestion: Call them grovemen (mangrove -> groveman)

[Sar]

But I want to be the Plane Stalker.

[DracheReborn]

As long as we're bikeshedding, +1 to mandrake/mandragora derived name. They can be the new MD

[dck]

but they're actually good

[Bloax]

What's wrong with Vine Stalker?
It's not a "generic name", that would be things like "Mandragora", "Halfling", "Elf", "Centaur", "Ogre", "Troll" and "Dwarf".

I think "Vine Stalkers" is fine, for the record. But if people really want a different name, then (kind of in line with Formicids, etc.), I'd suggest:

Viraflors

Vir — Old French meaning "man"
Flors — Latin for plant / flower

Plus nice pun with "virus," which implies something like the symbiote aspect.

Arcaflorals would be another go, but that's more hinting towards "arcane".
If anything, they could be Arcane Devourers - but honestly this is all trying hard to fix something that isn't broken.

[Quazifuji]

What's wrong with Vine Stalker?
It's not a "generic name", that would be things like "Mandragora", "Halfling", "Elf", "Centaur", "Ogre", "Troll" and "Dwarf".

Except those are all races in Crawl already. The general pattern for crawl races is to either be an established fantasy race, possibly with an adjective (usually in the case of multiple variations of that race being available), or to be derived from a word for whatever the race is based on (e.g. formicid, octopode, felid). In all honestly, I think part of my confused reaction to seeing "Vine Stalkers" on the race selection screen wasn't just that I wasn't sure what the race would do, but that the name felt extremely out of place because it doesn't match the way crawl's other races are named.

The other suggestions for names would fit much better. A "Mandrake" or "Mandragora" variant would fit the pattern of putting Crawl's own spin on an established fantasy concept and make anyone familiar with the fantasy trope immediately think of a hostile magic plant creature. A made up word could fit the same formula as "formicid" or "felid" and would make things clear to anyone familiar with the root the word comes from, or at least to make sense upon reading the description - some would guess that "viraflor" or "arcaflor" or whatever referred to a plant race, and it would probably make sense to people who didn't guess once they read the description.

Also, while I'm at it, I would like to point out that we do already have another magic plan person race in the game in the form of spriggans. This one's very different in flavor - almost the opposite, in a way - but I thought I'd throw it out there. On that note, what about making them carnivorous? I like the idea of a plan creature that refuses to eat other plants and will only eat animals, and it would fit with the fangs and help differentiate them from spriggans.

Another idea for a flavor concept, just sort of spitballing: what if we gave them reptilian qualities too? A reptile flavor fits with most of their qualities (regeneration and fangs, at the very least). Or would that just be overloading too many concepts on the same race? I saw someone else in another thread use the term "Mana Viper" (not actually sure if they were referring to Vine Stalkers or not, but it's the first thing I thought of), and I felt it fit this race very well.

[Siegurt]

Just going to express a personal preference here. Vine stalkers are fine with me, but if we are to rename them I would be in favor of a made-up-latin-derivative, and if we are to riff on that theme, I like 'Virflora' or 'Virafloris' over 'Viraflor', and 'Arcaniflor' or 'Arcfloris' over 'Arcaflor' just because I like the way they sound better (I realize that the conjugation may make native latin-speaking people want to stab me, but fortunately they're all dead so I can say what I like .

(Of those 'Arcaniflor' sounds most like a race name to me)


Some other possibilities I like:

Virphage
Phagiflor
Carniflor
Arcaniphage

[I want to believe]

Maybe something like "Manavore" or "Arcanavore", to show that they "eat" mana/magic?

[Sar]

no vore please

[nicolae]

The other suggestions for names would fit much better. A "Mandrake" or "Mandragora" variant would fit the pattern of putting Crawl's own spin on an established fantasy concept and make anyone familiar with the fantasy trope immediately think of a hostile magic plant creature. A made up word could fit the same formula as "formicid" or "felid" and would make things clear to anyone familiar with the root the word comes from, or at least to make sense upon reading the description - some would guess that "viraflor" or "arcaflor" or whatever referred to a plant race, and it would probably make sense to people who didn't guess once they read the description.

I like Mandrake or Mandragora a lot as a replacement name for Vine Stalkers.

Existing Crawl species names are either based on real-world fantasy creatures, with an adjective here and there, or are based on a simple derivation of a familiar word (Felid, Octopode). "Viraflor" or "Arcaflor" aren't the names of any real-world fantasy creatures, as far as I know, and they don't convey the basic concept of the species nearly as well as "Octopode" or "Felid" does for theirs, even if you do know the Latinate roots. A good species name should help the new player associate that species with existing concepts they may have in their minds, rather than making them wonder what the hell a Viraflor is, or what it does, or what it's supposed to resemble.

[archaeo]

The problem with "Mandrake" and its derivatives is that it comes laden with a lot of flavor that doesn't apply to the current species. The neologisms, your "Viraflors" and your "Arcaniphage," only increase the opacity of "Vine Stalker" by hiding it behind a layer of foreign languages. The only perceived problem with "Vine Stalker" is that it's not immediately clear what that might be, but I fail to see an alternate name that really sums up all of the species' features. The species' creator made something new and original, and I don't see why we can't let them have the honor of naming it what they like. Let's put down our paint cans and back away from this bikeshed.

[Sar]

Planty-bitey-magic-guardies.

[jejorda2]

I think of Venus Fly Traps and lean towards Venutian or Cytherean.

[Siegurt]

Arcani = magic,
Vira = power,
phage = eater
vore = devourer (pretty much a synonym for phage)
Floris/Flora =flower
Carni = flesh

I thought the latin for one of:

power-eater
magic-eater
Flesh-Flower (Actually "Fleshflower" does sound like a thing in english, possibly a tad to gross for my taste though)
Power-flower
Magic-Flower

Might convey the intended theme better than "Vine stalker" for those that don't find it descriptive enough. (It seems to me that 'vine stalker' really conveys more of "how this came to be" (i.e. a flower stalked, and killed a thing of some sort and is now using it as a host) than it conveys a sense of "What it is and what it does now" perhaps it is, in fact, no less opaque.

Maybe we should just call them 'Audreytwos'

[NOPE]

NOPE

How about vine stalkers? This name seems name-like enough to me. Has a namey ring to it.

Let me know if I'm off base.

[and into]

Ugh I regret that last post, I shouldn't have thrown fuel onto this fire.

There is nothing wrong with Vine Stalkers. The current name gives some sense of what the species does, and the description does the rest. Other things have been either needlessly more obscure (including my own suggestion!), or else would potentially imply things that aren't really part of what this species does.

So just stick with Vine Stalkers.

(.... Or name them Mountain Dwarves, just to troll a huge part of Crawl's player base.)

[Sar]

"They finally gave up and brought dorfs back, time to finally upgrade my 0.9! AXES HIGH!"

"...wait, what is this shit?!"

[coolio]

Welp, vine stalker is obviously the best choice here.

I only hope we can continue this imaginative streak and the other new trunk monsters and "essence havers" and "hot becomers"

[XuaXua]

Audrey III's
Creepers
Grasslings

[johlstei]

Just name every new species mountain dwarves when they get into trunk. They can get their real name when another race is added after.

[Speleothing]

Moon Trolls :getin:

But seriously, I like Vine Stalkers. Or Stalker Vines.