Vine Stalkers.


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 03:50

Re: Vine Stalkers.

After trying to play this species my verdict is that proportional guardian spirit needs to use current HP rather than max. Dying with full MP and guardian spirit is kind of sad.

edit: looks like it already does this, albeit in a weird way, so nevermind.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 368

Joined: Thursday, 11th April 2013, 21:07

Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 16:47

Re: Vine Stalkers.

I just finished a VSMo of Dith. This was my first time playing with either Dithmengos or Vine Stalker.

Morgue here: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Implojin/morgue-Implojin-20140201-150149.txt

My major critique of this species is that my game played a hell of a lot like a Vampire with lower max HP. It was fun due to that low max HP, but it felt as though it lacked differentiation and thus VS isn't really sticking out in my mind as an amazing addition to the game. Crawl already has Vampires, Mummies, and multiple low max HP races. Vine Stalker has mix of penalties that make -cTele floors more dangerous than usual, but for the most part it doesn't play in a unique way.

Beyond the differentiation concern, Vine Stalker seems like a fun race to play. Thanks to Basil/Sage and dck for the concept and execution.


Game specifics below:
Spoiler: show
I approached my game as I though I were playing an unarmed Vampire, and I didn't feel the need to change much.

The -3 HP aptitude of VS kept things pretty interesting, but the inability to quaff or zap heal had less of an impact on the game than expected. Regen 3 for sustainability and simple retreating in case of bad rolls meant that, outside of Zot:5, the inability to heal didn't give me much pause for concern. VS' low HP and lockout of emergency heals made Zot:5 pretty scary, even with 22 Fighting.

The aux brand on the bite was nice to have, but its effect felt minor and random -- I didn't feel encouraged to change my tactics based around it.


If Vine Stalker makes its way into a stable release, I would strongly encourage further differentiating it from existing Crawl species. DCSS already has many races that could be summed in the abstract as "low max HP plus a gimmick", and I think that this space within the game is lately becoming rather polluted. (Side note: If low max HP is apparently so interesting as a species trait, it might be worth renormalizing all species' HP aptitude slightly downward.)

For this message the author Implojin has received thanks: 3
duvessa, earLOBe, rabidweasel

goo

Halls Hopper

Posts: 61

Joined: Thursday, 30th December 2010, 19:36

Post Sunday, 2nd February 2014, 04:31

Re: Vine Stalkers.

Implojin wrote:I just finished a VSMo of Dith. This was my first time playing with either Dithmengos or Vine Stalker.

Morgue here: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Implojin/morgue-Implojin-20140201-150149.txt

My major critique of this species is that my game played a hell of a lot like a Vampire with lower max HP. It was fun due to that low max HP, but it felt as though it lacked differentiation and thus VS isn't really sticking out in my mind as an amazing addition to the game. Crawl already has Vampires, Mummies, and multiple low max HP races. Vine Stalker has mix of penalties that make -cTele floors more dangerous than usual, but for the most part it doesn't play in a unique way.


Here's an idea I had earlier in the thread to help make them stand out more. Not sure if it's a good idea, but it's unique at least.

A random idea I had, maybe when their MP is drained and their HP reaches a certain threshold (say 20-25% of their max, could be lower) their host body is destroyed. When this happens they lose their spirit shield and rot resistance, and start suffering rotting and stat loss at a rapid rate. The become an amorphous blob of vines/tentacles/whatever and can no longer maintain a solid form, leading to all of their armor and weapons melding into their body like a transfiguration spell. In this form they get some new mutations to compensate (say constriction for instance since it fits with the vine theme, not sure which mutations exactly to give them). The only way to stop/cure the stat loss/rotting and regain your form is to kill a foe and then inhabit it's body as your new host/power source. Since they feed off magic, killing a demon or undead would work for this too (and also not make this race worthless in extended.) This would fit pretty well with the "parasite" flavor (needs a host body to survive) and would add a lot of very tense moments when you bite off more than you can chew. Thoughts?


If this is too much of a downside in conjunction with their lack of wand/potion healing maybe their base HP could be buffed to compensate.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Sunday, 2nd February 2014, 04:42

Re: Vine Stalkers.

goo wrote:Here's an idea I had earlier in the thread to help make them stand out more.


That sounds pretty complicated, and unnecessarily so.

Dis Charger

Posts: 2064

Joined: Wednesday, 9th January 2013, 19:44

Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 02:08

Re: Vine Stalkers.

I'm sorry, but it's a pretty borind race in my experience. All their features are not interesting enough in comparison to other races.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1031

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 19:52

Location: AZ, USA

Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 02:35

Re: Vine Stalkers.

Overall I have really enjoyed my Vine Stalker experience so far. Their regen is very powerful, and almost completely takes care of two of the aspects of the game I dislike the most: resting and mild poison. They regen so quickly that even kiting with them is not so tedious, as it doesn't take that long to restore HP to attack again. A great race for speedrunning, and if you worship Mak the hp regen is absolutely insane.

I also thoroughly and completely love manavamp. My only comment here is that I still think it's a bit too strong. In my current game (VSGl^Zin) I had the misfortune of being unable to upgrade my starting falchion until Lair:6 (when I found a lajatang), but I was still absolutely wrecking things like spiny frogs and elephants almost solely thanks to the extra attack. The low hp (<60 through most of Lair) made me a bit anxious, but there was never really much of a threat.

The drawbacks (low HP and no access to consumable healing) are quite severe, but do change the game in meaningful ways. It certainly makes the question of fight or flight a more pronounced one. I had a very scary experience in Abyss grabbing the rune that really exemplified what I love about VS - down to 15hp, nearly surrounded by a variety of scary dudes (thrashing horrors, starcursed masses, yaktaurs, demons, etc.). Normally you can just hit tele and chug healing until you're safe, but instead I was forced to use Sanctuary and run around and try to recover hp faster than I was taking damage while waiting for tele to kick in.

In the end, I think I would prefer if their HP penalty wasn't so severe (-2 apt instead of -3), and manavamp was made a bit weaker. However, my char is entirely melee-based, so perhaps manavamp is at an appropriate level for spell-casting combos. But overall I really like VS, thumbs up from me.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 377

Joined: Friday, 1st February 2013, 21:08

Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 11:31

Re: Vine Stalkers.

It is only your fault if you find them boring and similar to other species ;) I tried several different approaches and I think they are great addition to the game and offer unique gameplay... as long as you are willing to think beyond borders.

Built-in regeneration forgives small mistakes. This is a nice feature for beginners.
Low HP and no access to healing punishes later on. You really want to be sure you can win a difficult fight, because you won't be able to regenerate your hp in three turns, hiding around a corner.

These features alone have quite some impact on the game whatever you do. Compared to kobolds or halflings... Sorry, why do we even keep these guys?

It is mana drain what makes VS really interesting, though. VS is a lot of fun when played as spellcaster dabbling with melee from time to time. Out of mana? Finish your opponent in melee! Not only will he suffer from antimagic, but you will gain precious mana without any items/gods you usually need.

If you want, make your VS a boring Sif Muna spellcaster or low-hp monk. You might win, you might lose, but do not complain that your game was boring - you chose it to be so.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 15:39

Re: Vine Stalkers.

I've been playing a few vine stalkers recently, exclusively choosing Dith as a god. I've tried wanderer and wizard backgrounds so far. Overall the gameplay feels like a Demonspawn that starts with a fairly good mutation package but low HP and full armour slots. The full package is quite forgiving until somewhere around lair branches/vaults/early depths, at which point I tend to be too careless with my tiny hp pool -- VS can't take on 4 hasted hell knights without rF+, even if nothing in the dungeon up to that point has scared you at all.

Early game skilling is very forgiving, since getting anything, no matter how weak, to min delay and then getting defenses is sufficient to handle most monsters you encounter before Lair branches.

I've found that using a fast weapon and having even a small slaying bonus is absolutely nuts, especially with Dith shadowing your moves. Using a +1/+1 dagger of venom with 10 SB without kiting seemed to be about as strong as a +1/+1 great sword of slicing with 18 LB once I got +0/+4 slaying. Training fighting also seems particularly good for this species since they both need the HP and also can use the extra damage and accuracy on their auxiliary attacks.

Right now I've got a VSWn in progress that is wearing both troll leather and a ring of regeneration and knows the regeneration spell. It's pretty funny.

Barkeep

Posts: 3890

Joined: Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 23:25

Location: USA

Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 15:42

Re: Vine Stalkers.

Lasty wrote:Right now I've got a VSWn in progress that is wearing both troll leather and a ring of regeneration and knows the regeneration spell. It's pretty funny.


Now you just need a vampiric weapon and the spell vampiric draining, and you will be living the dream of every Vine Stalker.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 18:10

Re: Vine Stalkers.

Okay, so I won 4 Vine Stalkers (and splatted some high-level ones) and I feel like I have to say something.

I enjoyed them. I admit I played the first because dck asked me to help with testing it (naturally I was not very helpful at that), but I played others because I liked how they play. It's nothing outlandish, but I like the combination of low HP (well, it actually isn't quite as low because you have guardian spirit and manavamp), no healing and high regen (the latter does reduce tedium of pressing 5). My winning characters were VSNe^Ash (experimental), VSBe^Trog, another VSNe^Ash (I really like the combo) and VSCj^Dith. Be used his mana purely as extra HP (and with vamp claymore/faith it was an insanely strong character), but the more casty dudes enjoyed being able to refill their mana in the middle of battle by just hitting enemies. I also appreciate how aptitudes are mostly flat, without pushing player in one direction or another. I know there were suggestions like making them good at Air and bad at Fire because... they're trees, I guess, but that would just limit player unnecessarily. They're fine as they are.

I hope they'll make it into stable version!

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 747

Joined: Friday, 6th January 2012, 12:30

Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 20:55

Re: Vine Stalkers.

Bart wrote:It is mana drain what makes VS really interesting, though. VS is a lot of fun when played as spellcaster dabbling with melee from time to time. Out of mana? Finish your opponent in melee! Not only will he suffer from antimagic, but you will gain precious mana without any items/gods you usually need.


If the situation where this race is really interesting is "a primarily spellcaster character fights multiple enemies, uses all of his mp, the enemies aren't dead yet after he used all his mp, then he hits them with melee attacks, they're still not dead, and then he casts more spells to kill them", I'd say this race isn't different enough because this situation is very rare if you're playing safely.

I played a VSAE as a spellcaster with melee char you're talking about, and I started him specifically to experience the situation you described. It never happened. For me VS play almost exactly like "a human with regen and less hp" and that's not very interesting. Implojin's comparison to Vp is probably even more accurate, because Vp have less hp than humans and regen... and a bite that heals them sometimes. So VS is not what I expect of a new race.

Edit: Sorry I thought Vp had -1 hp, got confused with the exp apt.
Last edited by Wahaha on Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 00:53, edited 1 time in total.

For this message the author Wahaha has received thanks: 2
duvessa, Implojin

Dungeon Master

Posts: 634

Joined: Sunday, 22nd September 2013, 14:46

Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 21:31

Re: Vine Stalkers.

(At Alive, don't vampires have average HP (HP apt 0) and above-average regen? And vampires are a new race after all.)
I only played a little VS on the experimental branch, back when they started with more regen, but having low HP and high regen alone seemed like enough to distinguish them from other races.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 23:59

Re: Vine Stalkers.

wheals wrote:(At Alive, don't vampires have average HP (HP apt 0)
  Code:
Vp (SK_EXPERIENCE)=-1
Hu (SK_EXPERIENCE)=1

Dungeon Master

Posts: 634

Joined: Sunday, 22nd September 2013, 14:46

Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 00:01

Re: Vine Stalkers.

Good point, it will be lower than humans since they have a far above-average experience apt.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 00:04

Re: Vine Stalkers.

Well Wahaha specifically said human and not average, but yeah I guess you didn't.

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 00:48

Re: Vine Stalkers.

@wheals: Their HP apt doesn't change but they gain more regen the closer to alive they are, having regen 2 at alive (which lasts a whole 17 turns if you're not a jellovp) and 1 at very full/full.

I'm obviously biased and I obviously like VS, but some of the expectations about how outlandish and weird they have to be seem a bit out there to me.
One thing I'd like to bring up is that I don't think low HP by itself is that interesting since avoiding trouble is very easy in crawl, it's when you pair the low HPs with fun things that encourage fighting that you blur the line between what's safe and what's not and you create situations where player input (and player mistakes) matters more.

Kobolds for example are a good race that trade valuable resources (HPs and weapon selection) for a set of advantages like having good body slots and great ease getting EV, which makes for an interesting race that doesn't take that much damage but doesn't have that much HP to spare either.
VS otoh pay a steeper HP price (and can't use some of the most common and effective ways of fixing mistakes) and in return get just okay defenses and a whole different set of tools- namely regen, gspirit and big boost to offense that also recharges MP.

I think these features differentiate them enough from the rest of the existing races: the aux bite improves melee choices that would normally be questionable greatly and allows you to be much more capable of dealing damage without huge investment, no HW means a couple of unexpectedly bad rolls in combat or unexpected trouble showing up might mean more danger than it normally would (which is why imo the race is still different enough even if you refuse to take up offensive magic) and rechargeable gs means spellcasters (who have had to spread themselves a bit thinner and may have worse defenses/HPs, but still have likely great melee offense) need to close into melee to have full access to their MP (which is then effectively infinite as long as something to bite exists).
Because of that I also disagree with Wahaha's take on spellcasting offensively as a VS, since even if the effect of gs isn't that hazardous in the early game given that few threats can hit you from a distance; many of these exist later on and one can even assume that with the most conservative positioning in every possible encounter, you will at some point get shot and if you sustain fire against ranged dudes you will in fact leak mana like a 90s motorboat diesel, meaning you lose a lot of potential damage because you now don't have any mana left after two ishots.
It just doesn't seem reasonable to me to remove gs from the equation like that and pretending that killing one dude in melee meaning full MP doesn't happen constantly and that it doesn't impact your decisions.

For this message the author dck has received thanks: 5
and into, Arrhythmia, Bart, Cheibrodos, WalkerBoh
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 21:01

Re: Vine Stalkers.

Vine Stalkers are currently prevented from consuming Potions of Heal Wounds after identification.

Do PoHW supply nutrition like PoCuring do? If so, then Vine Stalkers should not be prevented from drinking them.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 21:03

Re: Vine Stalkers.

No potions except blood or porridge give any nutrition anymore.

For this message the author dck has received thanks:
XuaXua
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 03:48

Re: Vine Stalkers.

dck wrote:No potions except blood or porridge give any nutrition anymore.


Cool, thanks. *stops quaffing poison during rpois*
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1217

Joined: Sunday, 14th April 2013, 04:01

Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 15:15

Re: Vine Stalkers.

I tried a few VS yesterday, and I quite like them. For me, they felt weirdly like Deep Dwarves, in the sense that you can ignore heal pots and feel more durable in melee than most, but the low HP really makes enemies capable of mass-chunking much scarier. I also liked the stealth reliance due to low dodging and armor apts simply because I rarely play stealth and it was interesting to give it a try.

Need to splat a few more before I can give more specifics or tweak suggestions.
Three wins: Gargoyle Earth Elementalist of Ash, Ogre Fighter of Ru, Deep Dwarf Fighter of Makhleb (0.16 bugbuild :( )
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 16:27

Re: Vine Stalkers.

How high does regeneration stack, plus Makhleb?
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!
User avatar

Wizlab Walloper

Posts: 222

Joined: Monday, 3rd June 2013, 23:40

Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 17:10

Re: Vine Stalkers.

Regeneration can stack infinitely, I suppose. There are only so many sources in the game. A Demonspawn wearing a troll leather armor and two rings of regeneration who has the Powered by Death 3 mutation and is surrounded by corpses after caster the Regeneration spell or using Trog's Hand gets, what, 12 HP per turn? Something around there.

Not sure how Mahkleb is related. Different healing mechanic.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 233

Joined: Saturday, 18th February 2012, 04:40

Post Wednesday, 28th May 2014, 22:19

Re: Vine Stalkers.

Lasty wrote:Right now I've got a VSWn in progress that is wearing both troll leather and a ring of regeneration and knows the regeneration spell. It's pretty funny.

So troll leather actually work on VS´s? I had two rings of Reg on my last VSFi of Qazlal but he died of hybris. On my current VSMo i found an early Troll leather but is it viable?
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1337

Joined: Saturday, 7th July 2012, 02:28

Location: Limbo

Post Wednesday, 28th May 2014, 23:08

Re: Vine Stalkers.

All sources of regeneration work just fine, and yes - it's viable for a while.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

For this message the author Bloax has received thanks:
graffen69

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Thursday, 29th May 2014, 12:38

Re: Vine Stalkers.

The only problems with troll leather on a Vine Stalker are the same as the problems for everyone else: it doesn't give any resistances and it generally requires a lot of EA scrolls to get a marginal AC boost over leather. If for some reason those aren't issues for you (e.g. already found an enchanted TLA, found an artifact TLA with rF+, already have a ring with rC++ rF++ MR+, etc), then TLA is a pretty solid choice.

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Thursday, 29th May 2014, 13:05

Re: Vine Stalkers.

Well the biggest problem I have with TLA on most characters is that I have to make one and that means it has to compete very seriously with at least leather, ring mails and robes that exist and a ton of leather, ring mails and robes exist.
On most characters without regen though I will consider making one, since regen is all 'round pleasant to have and keeps your downtime at a minimum. And there's not huge need for great body armour in crawl anyway, so one can just opt for convenience.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5382

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 29th May 2014, 19:32

Re: Vine Stalkers.

I rarely use troll leather armor, but I think that if you could skin deep/iron trolls and get an armor with around 8ac 11 encumbrance (fire dragon armor stats) and regen, I'd probably use that a fair amount of the time. Basically whenever I had enough resists to not need resists on body armor. Bonus points if it can get regen++ rather than just regen. Say around .6 a turn (regen rings are .3).
Previous

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.