Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option


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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 16:27

Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Maybe this idea is a bit taboo, but what if players were allowed to wield blowguns as an offhand option like shields? IMO, blowguns tend to be frustrating to use because you have to keep switching back and fourth between them and your main weapon, so giving the option to wield a blowgun in offhand would make them much more user friendly.

Not only would this make them more interesting and more thematic, it would also remove the tedium of having to switch back and fourth every time you want to use it.

Other ranged weapons do just fine because they actually deal damage and can be used all the time when you have enough ammo, but blowguns are 95% supplementary, so wearing them like a shield would make more sense.

Edit: This would not make blowguns mutually exclusive with shields.
Last edited by Tiktacy on Monday, 30th December 2013, 16:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 16:31

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Not only would this make them more interesting and more thematic,


I wish people would stop saying this, it doesn't help your argument at all to say "this would be great!"

So shields and blowguns become mutually exclusive?
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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 16:34

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

twelwe wrote:
Not only would this make them more interesting and more thematic,


I wish people would stop saying this, it doesn't help your argument at all to say "this would be great!"

So shields and blowguns become mutually exclusive?


Not necessarily.
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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 16:34

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

That's actually awful because say I'm a Ko or Ha and want to shoot curare at some guy but I'm wearing a buckler because I shank people for a living.
whoops! As if small races didn't have weird enough weapon selections.

also how is wielding a blowgun with your left hand any more thematic than wielding it with your right hand?
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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 16:38

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

I think it'd be considered dual wielding.

Even though in real life you can obviously hold a sword and blowgun at the same time.

Guess the game assumes your other hand is reloading it. :D
Last edited by Klown on Monday, 30th December 2013, 16:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 16:38

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

dck wrote:That's actually awful because say I'm a Ko or Ha and want to shoot curare at some guy but I'm wearing a buckler because I shank people for a living.
whoops! As if small races didn't have weird enough weapon selections.

also how is wielding a blowgun with your left hand any more thematic than wielding it with your right hand?


I never said anything about making them mutually exclusive, I just said making them on offhand OPTION. Sorry if that wasn't clear, I edited the op. :oops:

It is more thematic because it seems strange that you can't wield something as tiny and simple as a blowgun as an offhand weapon. But I think that is probably the weakest point in my argument(no, you do not have to bring up the bees again).
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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 17:56

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

I don't think this makes blowguns more interesting. The risk of using a blowgun is that when using it you cannot attack and need a turn to re-equip your weapon. If you don't have to wield it, it becomes a no-brainer and you use it whenever you have any opportunity.

Also there really isn't that much tedium for switching back and forth. Set your main weapon to 'a' and your blowgun to 'b' and use ' to switch with one key press.

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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 18:10

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

I've thought about this and I think there's no way to make blowguns easier to use without either being awful or OP. I assume your proposal would only be for one-handed weapons, do you think anyone is going to use a one handed weapon simply so they can use a blowgun? Is it mutually exclusive with a shield? If so, wouldn't it always be better to wear a shield and switch to the blowgun on demand? If not, or if two-handers can do it too then randart blowguns become free bags of stats to every character.

I think my favorite fix would be to automatically use the lowest letter blowgun when [f]iring quivered needles, but then that begs the question of why you'd ever equip one and what the point of randart ones is.

(Side note: Why do randart blowguns exist? Does anyone equip their blowgun for the resists? Wouldn't blowguns of speed with high enchantment fill the same role?)
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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 19:25

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

johlstei wrote:I've thought about this and I think there's no way to make blowguns easier to use without either being awful or OP. I assume your proposal would only be for one-handed weapons, do you think anyone is going to use a one handed weapon simply so they can use a blowgun? Is it mutually exclusive with a shield? If so, wouldn't it always be better to wear a shield and switch to the blowgun on demand? If not, or if two-handers can do it too then randart blowguns become free bags of stats to every character.

I think my favorite fix would be to automatically use the lowest letter blowgun when [f]iring quivered needles, but then that begs the question of why you'd ever equip one and what the point of randart ones is.

(Side note: Why do randart blowguns exist? Does anyone equip their blowgun for the resists? Wouldn't blowguns of speed with high enchantment fill the same role?)


You could potentially make it functionally identical to the way it is now if you played around with it a little bit, except make it much less tedious. Taking less turns to use your blowgun is definitely going to be a buff though, but I think a buff to blowguns just for the sake of making them more appealing and less tedious sounds fine to me, but then again it was my idea so my opinion is kind of irrelevant.

As for the part about using a one handed, my answer would be yes, there are several situations I can think of where I would choose to use a one hander and a blowgun rather than a shield or a two handed weapon. It adds the option of supplementing your battle tactics without having to use magic. Currently you just have the option of "defense approach or offense approach."

Making it mutually exclusive might be a better idea actually, it would actually make it even less of a no brainer because you would have to make a relatively tough choice. Keep in mind, this is all speculation, I'm not really positive if what I am saying will be the case if it ever got to a testing phase.
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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 20:13

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

I'm fine with the reduction of turns to use by one, that seems like a small buff for a big gain in usability. I'm not fine with giving a free extra slot for randarts.

If they were mutually exclusive, I have a hard time believing there is ever a situation where you'd rather have your blowgun in your offhand than have a shield there, and spend the turn to equip the blowgun in your mainhand and put it back instead. To me this makes the whole endeavor pointless. Your tactics are almost the same in that case, and you are taking a big penalty by not having a shield/2-hander in order to be stronger in the very rare case where you absolutely need to fire a blowgun now and not half a turn from now. (And also for ease-of-use UI, but that's not a particularly great way to make design decisions - bad ui should be fixed by better ui, tactical issues should be fixed by tactical changes, this thread's suggestion kind of conflates the two.)

If you want to make them mutually exclusive, I guess your proposal could be fixed by making blowguns offhand-only. That would be a big nerf to them though, since shields take more than one turn to unequip and thus shield-users basically can't use them.

Randart blowguns kind of hurt any potential ui fixes because they make equipped vs not-equipped significant. I'm having trouble thinking of any way to improve the ui alone while those still exist.

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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 20:19

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

I wouldn't want an offhand blowgun because I'd vastly prefer a 2H weapon or a 1H weapon and a shield.

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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 21:29

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

So the problem is that using blowguns is needlessly fiddly. As far as I can tell the OP proposal does not actually address this issue at all - it just means that, if you use a one handed weapon, you could switch the blowgun with your shield instead of your weapon. If you use a two-handed weapon there's no change from the status quo.

johlstei wrote:automatically use the lowest letter blowgun when [f]iring quivered needles, but then that begs the question of why you'd ever equip one and what the point of randart ones is.

This proposal makes sense to me - I don't think the loss of blowguns with resists would be a huge loss, and it wouldn't be too hard to adjust the firing time to make it functionally identical to the status quo. Another possibility would be some kind of "autojuggle" feature whereby you automatically switch to your blowgun when you try to fire a needle.
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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 21:33

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

johlstei wrote:I'm fine with the reduction of turns to use by one, that seems like a small buff for a big gain in usability. I'm not fine with giving a free extra slot for randarts.

If they were mutually exclusive, I have a hard time believing there is ever a situation where you'd rather have your blowgun in your offhand than have a shield there, and spend the turn to equip the blowgun in your mainhand and put it back instead. To me this makes the whole endeavor pointless. Your tactics are almost the same in that case, and you are taking a big penalty by not having a shield/2-hander in order to be stronger in the very rare case where you absolutely need to fire a blowgun now and not half a turn from now. (And also for ease-of-use UI, but that's not a particularly great way to make design decisions - bad ui should be fixed by better ui, tactical issues should be fixed by tactical changes, this thread's suggestion kind of conflates the two.)

If you want to make them mutually exclusive, I guess your proposal could be fixed by making blowguns offhand-only. That would be a big nerf to them though, since shields take more than one turn to unequip and thus shield-users basically can't use them.

Randart blowguns kind of hurt any potential ui fixes because they make equipped vs not-equipped significant. I'm having trouble thinking of any way to improve the ui alone while those still exist.


One thing I would like to point out is that 2 handed weapon users are 100% unaffected by this change. They wouldn't be using a shield in the first place and would simply have to unequal and equip like normal.

Those are all really good points though. I can think of a few situations where I would prefer a blowgun to a shield, but that's only a few and most of them involve early game or needle stabbers.

How about this:

-blowguns become usable as an offhand option like shields
-they can still be used while a shield is equipped, but it's delay is increased like it would be with bows and xbows.
-blowguns delay is increased slightly.

This would reduce the tedium of having to equip and re-equip all the time. To compensate for having to take less turns to equip, the delay would be increased slightly, and they would be less useful(but still usable) for shield wearers. This allows people who do not want to train shields(due to bad aptitudes for example) to have a usable offhand item that does not require heavy investment to use effectively, and will not hinder them in any way.

How does that sound?
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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 21:40

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Leafsnail wrote:So the problem is that using blowguns is needlessly fiddly. As far as I can tell the OP proposal does not actually address this issue at all - it just means that, if you use a one handed weapon, you could switch the blowgun with your shield instead of your weapon. If you use a two-handed weapon there's no change from the status quo.

johlstei wrote:automatically use the lowest letter blowgun when [f]iring quivered needles, but then that begs the question of why you'd ever equip one and what the point of randart ones is.

This proposal makes sense to me - I don't think the loss of blowguns with resists would be a huge loss, and it wouldn't be too hard to adjust the firing time to make it functionally identical to the status quo. Another possibility would be some kind of "autojuggle" feature whereby you automatically switch to your blowgun when you try to fire a needle.


Hmm, I guess you might be right, my proposal doesn't quite fix the whole problem, it just sort of pushes it to the side. The thing I liked about it was the fact that it offered a different offhand choice besides shields, which sounded kinda cool to me, but I guess other people begged to differ. *shrug*

I am not a fan of this other proposal, it sounds odd to me that an item in your bag would still be usable when it's not equipped, but I guess it might solve the problem.
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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 21:52

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

I'm a bit confused, when you say still usable while a shield is equipped, do you mean still usable in the mainhand or having both in the offhand?

If you mean the mainhand then I have the same complaint as before, why would you use a 1-hander + blowgun when you could use a 2-hander and switch to a blowgun in half a turn? Maybe a spriggan with a demon whip might? It seems pretty niche, and doesn't fix the ui issue unless you make that strange(imo) tradeoff. I still think you are trying to balance a suboptimal option with the carrot of a better ui, and it doesn't sit right to me. If we're going to fix the ui, lets really fix the ui. I guess it would mean I'd equip a blowgun in the phase of the game where I haven't found an acceptable 2-hander yet, but that's pretty much it.

If you mean you can use both at the same time in the offhand, it still makes a randart blowgun with good resistances a ridiculously lucky find and free bag of useful mods - a (very) stealthy buff to shield users. Everyone with a shield would be hoping for a sweet blowgun even if they never planned on firing it. Granted, I think 2-handers are better right now and it wouldn't be the worst thing to buff 1-handers, but that seems pretty far from the intent of the proposal.

If it's any credit I like the idea of alternate offhands. I'd prefer if they weren't weapons but like, spell enhancer offhands or unrand offhands with cool evocations might be fun.

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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 21:58

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

So here's a serious question: if blowguns are this annoying, how do you deal with conjurations?

To use a blowgun you press either one (') or two (ww) keys to wield it. You then press tab or shift-tab to shoot it in most cases, or rarely target with f (or F if you just want to shoot one curare needle or something without changing your quiver). Then you press ' to go back to your main weapon. So it's 2 + number of shots keypresses, maybe plus one more.

For conjurations, most of them are targeted and ranged, so you press z, then the spell letter, then f or . or space to fire. So it's 3*number of uses keypresses. You might notice this number is always larger than the number for blowguns, unless you shoot exactly once and additionally can't use ' to switch to your blowgun.

"But you could make a macro for spells!" Well you can also make a macro for your blowgun, if it bothers you that much.

Or are conjurations also problematic? Is switching to a bow/xbow/sling also too problematic? I fail to see why blowguns in particular deserve this special treatment and also fail to see why it's really an improvement.

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Post Monday, 30th December 2013, 23:57

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

I suspect the creator of this proposal (like many people) doesn't assign blowguns to useful inventory slots (I actually started to try to write a macro to assign useful weapon letters to things when wielded, but I was gave up in the face of the lack of lua documentation that I could find)

What I'd like to do is add a hook to "wield" such that it checks the thing that was just wielded, and if it's a melee weapon assigns it to 'a' and if it's a launcher assigns it to 'b', which covers about 95% of the tedium in making ' useful for me, personally.
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 00:07

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

You can also do something like autoinscribe blowguns with @w2 and then you can press w2 to wield it, regardless of inventory letter.

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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 01:31

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

crate wrote:So here's a serious question: if blowguns are this annoying, how do you deal with conjurations?

To use a blowgun you press either one (') or two (ww) keys to wield it. You then press tab or shift-tab to shoot it in most cases, or rarely target with f (or F if you just want to shoot one curare needle or something without changing your quiver). Then you press ' to go back to your main weapon. So it's 2 + number of shots keypresses, maybe plus one more.

For conjurations, most of them are targeted and ranged, so you press z, then the spell letter, then f or . or space to fire. So it's 3*number of uses keypresses. You might notice this number is always larger than the number for blowguns, unless you shoot exactly once and additionally can't use ' to switch to your blowgun.

"But you could make a macro for spells!" Well you can also make a macro for your blowgun, if it bothers you that much.

Or are conjurations also problematic? Is switching to a bow/xbow/sling also too problematic? I fail to see why blowguns in particular deserve this special treatment and also fail to see why it's really an improvement.


What seigort said is correct, but I do actually use adjusted hot keys with conjurations.

With blowguns, I usually find myself having to move back a space, equip my blowgun, select the fire I want, then move back into place(or back away further if the monster woke up). My goal is to make it so you would just select which needle you want and shoot it, kind of like I would choose a spell that I don't normally use every fight(like deaths door for example).

In my mind, an offhand blowgun is in your side pocket ready to be whipped out at a moments notice, so maybe allowing it to be wielded even with a two handed weapon might work. Of course, it would still act the same as it does now with shields. It still remains inconvenient for players wearing shields, but in my experience, shield wearers past lair 8 don't have quite as much use for blowguns anyway, so I guess you could say it solves "most" of the problems?

To answer your original question though, the difference is that conjurations is often something I you are using the entire game, so it slows at a consistent pace. Blowguns on the other hand, interrupt normal gameplay speed. Also, the interface feels kind of awkward in my experience.
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 01:58

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Why would having a shield or not influence wanting to slow jorgrun or nikola or an orb guardian?

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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 02:26

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Does this change allow you to fire a blowgun while wielding a disto weapon? If it does, wouldn't disto sbl become sort of a nobrainer for needlestabbers?
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 02:34

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

dck wrote:Why would having a shield or not influence wanting to slow jorgrun or nikola or an orb guardian?


It wouldn't, at all really. Also, let's avoid strawman arguments like this one.

Scalding Steam wrote:Does this change allow you to fire a blowgun while wielding a disto weapon? If it does, wouldn't disto sbl become sort of a nobrainer for needlestabbers?


I wouldn't call that a no brainer, distortion is good, but you would probably be making the switch to a stronger weapon pretty quickly since most needle stabbers follow a god that gifts needles(and weapons).
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 03:04

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Tiktacy wrote:Edit: This would not make blowguns mutually exclusive with shields.


What's the point then? How would a single turn's worth of convenience make up for losing the defenses of a shield? Why not just suggest to get rid of blowguns and reskin needles?
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 03:29

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Tiktacy wrote:It wouldn't, at all really. Also, let's avoid strawman arguments like this one.

I was asking a question about how "shield wearers past lair 8 don't have quite as much use for blowguns anyway" because it doesn't make the first bit of sense to me.
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 03:55

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Arrhythmia wrote:
Tiktacy wrote:Edit: This would not make blowguns mutually exclusive with shields.


What's the point then? How would a single turn's worth of convenience make up for losing the defenses of a shield? Why not just suggest to get rid of blowguns and reskin needles?


Uhm, doesn't being NOT mutually exclusive suggest you can use blowguns with shields but still have to wield them in main hand like you do now?
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 04:10

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

dck wrote:
Tiktacy wrote:It wouldn't, at all really. Also, let's avoid strawman arguments like this one.

I was asking a question about how "shield wearers past lair 8 don't have quite as much use for blowguns anyway" because it doesn't make the first bit of sense to me.



Oh, so you were trying to say "why don't shield users have as much use for blowguns?" Well, I would have been much more obligated to answer that if you, well, asked that question in the first place? :|

To put it simply, species with good throwing aptitudes tend to have a bit more trouble with shields than other species, so generally speaking, not as many people will be using both. Halflings are currently the only species with positive aptitudes in both shields and throwing. Also, a lot more enemies after lair 8 and Orc 4 have poison resistance and/or high HD, which both make needles less useful.
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 04:14

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Slowing most uniques in the game for zero skill investment is quite good.
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 04:14

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Tiktacy wrote:Uhm, doesn't being NOT mutually exclusive suggest you can use blowguns with shields but still have to wield them in main hand like you do now?


Yes, I'm saying that using a blowgun as your offhand would be useless, while a blowgun as your main is just the status quo. I literally don't see the point to this proposal.
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 04:25

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

dck wrote:Slowing most uniques in the game for zero skill investment is quite good.


That's impossible to do with the 3 creatures you listed, even with a +9 blowgun. If you would like to continue this discussion, we should move it to PM's, how useful blowguns are doesn't have anything to do with what I'm suggesting. Stop taking my sentences out of context, please, it's not only frustrating, it makes getting anywhere much more difficult.

Edit: I completely forgot curare slowed enemies, my mistake. It's still completely irrelevant. :?
Last edited by Tiktacy on Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 04:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 04:26

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

That's impossible to do with the 3 creatures you listed, even with a +9 blowgun.

Curare....
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 04:26

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

e: beaten by a bluename
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 04:28

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Arrhythmia wrote:
Tiktacy wrote:Uhm, doesn't being NOT mutually exclusive suggest you can use blowguns with shields but still have to wield them in main hand like you do now?


Yes, I'm saying that using a blowgun as your offhand would be useless, while a blowgun as your main is just the status quo. I literally don't see the point to this proposal.


Well, it looks like a lot of people are having the same problem, so I'll just try again in a couple days and make it a little more detailed. This thread can be yuifed at any time now, I'm out. :?
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Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 04:32

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

crate wrote:
That's impossible to do with the 3 creatures you listed, even with a +9 blowgun.

Curare....


Whoops! Edited.
To all new players: Ignore all strategy guides posted on the wiki, ask questions in the Advice forum, players with lots of posts normally have the best advice.

crawl.akrasiac.org:8080 <- take this link to play online or spectate.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 05:48

Re: Proposal: Make blowguns an offhand option

Thread abandoned by OP.

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