Pandemonium Purger
Posts: 1341
Joined: Monday, 24th October 2011, 06:13
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Pandemonium Purger
Posts: 1341
Joined: Monday, 24th October 2011, 06:13
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1891
Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41
Location: Toronto, Canada
Dungeon Master
Posts: 762
Joined: Thursday, 25th April 2013, 02:43
20:02:01 <reaver_> Can we just make wands spawn identified? (Maybe with one less charge if that's a balance feature). After MarvinPA's identification change there's zero reason not to zap them at thin air if there aren't any monster around.
20:02:02 <Sequell> reaver_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
20:02:33 <tenofswords> identified on pick-up like books
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20:04:12 <elliptic> identified on pick-up like books with -random2(2) charges on generation was my suggestion
20:05:01 <SamB> elliptic: that sounds kind of odd
20:05:08 <elliptic> SamB: why?
20:05:15 <SamB> why 2?
20:05:19 <|amethyst> SamB: 0 or 1
20:05:22 <reaver_> Now that it's been suggested, I definitely agree identified on pick-up is the best way to go. I don't know how many much to change the charges.
20:05:24 <SamB> oh
20:05:37 <|amethyst> randomup2
20:05:42 <|amethyst> randomup2butnotincluding
20:05:47 <elliptic> random2(2) is the right amount to equalize things if you get two wands of each type
20:05:54 <SamB> I guess I've been thinking about dice too much
20:06:43 <SamB> or we could simplify things and use random2(1)
20:06:45 <kilobyte> you tend to find more than two wands of each type (other than HW/hasting in a 3-runer) in a game
20:06:51 <kilobyte> SamB: yeah :p
20:07:08 <elliptic> kilobyte: right, so it would be a slight nerf in the long run but a slight buff earlier on
20:07:30 <elliptic> I'm also fine with not compensating at all
20:08:17 <reaver_> elliptic: Is your charge suggestion just for random generation or also for recharging?
20:08:20 <elliptic> the ID on pickup is the important part... reaver_ is right that you always want to zap them at air now
20:08:25 <elliptic> reaver_: just random generation
20:08:42 <elliptic> recharging adds to the current charges, so it isn't really relevant here
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20:15:04 <kilobyte> there's just one wand that makes your situation noticeably worse
20:15:18 <SamB> hasting?
20:15:21 <SamB> invis?
20:15:32 <SamB> or did you mean to zap at nothing
20:15:48 <kilobyte> sometimes also HW when the monster is already damaged, invis if you can't retreat or polymorph
20:16:09 <kilobyte> but in most cases, just hasting
20:16:16 <|amethyst> enslavement if you worship ely
20:16:25 <SamB> well you can NOTICE the monster being invisible well enough
20:16:34 <|amethyst> though it's fine against a sole monster
20:16:38 <|amethyst> or a tough one
20:17:10 <reaver_> kilobyte: |amethyst: You guys realize wand ID when you zap them at the air now.
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20:17:57 <reaver_> %git c7ef5b85fb05ef13598df80dda79916cf4ec28bc
20:17:57 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.14-a0-330-gc7ef5b8: Always identify wands on zap 10(6 weeks ago, 1 file, 3+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c7ef5b85fb05
20:18:03 <|amethyst> reaver_: right, I think kilobyte's arguing that it can make sense to zap at a monster anyway currently, so you get some effect
20:18:14 <|amethyst> rather than completely wasting the charge
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20:18:47 <reaver_> |amethyst: I guess that makes a bit of sense.
20:18:59 <|amethyst> then again, if it can't kill you when hasted, it's probably not something worth wasting a wand charge on anyway
20:20:40 <kilobyte> hasting is pretty rare, so I'd say the chances you'd need to teleport are negligible enough to make not wasting a charge of a good beam wand outweight it IMO
20:21:06 <reaver_> MarvinPA did say in the commit: "Identifying after one zap keeps the slight tradeoff of using up a charge if you choose not to scroll-ID.", although elliptic just said "you always want to zap them at the air now."
20:21:44 <kilobyte> I zap it at the air, that just happens to have a tough monster on the other side :p
20:22:31 <kilobyte> because you're on the average better off doing so
20:23:05 <tenofswords> ??optimal
20:23:05 <Sequell> optimal[1/2]: what do you even mean, turn optimal? time optimal? resource optimal? safety optimal? opportunity costs easily make this term mean nothing.
20:24:32 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-1216-g79ee531: Make the clua console available outside wizmode. 10(6 minutes ago, 3 files, 9+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=79ee531a0e06
20:25:02 <tenofswords> the entry could probably use "thought optimal"
20:25:09 <kilobyte> <3
20:25:14 <bh> MarvinPA: thank you for removing the wand minigame
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20:25:38 <elliptic> kilobyte: I'd far far rather know what wands I have at my disposal for the next actual dangerous monster, rather than use a charge on a monster that is harmless enough that I don't mind invis/hasting/wasting a turn
20:25:38 <|amethyst> identification falls one category at a time
20:25:59 <bh> next up: item destruction
20:26:06 <kilobyte> there's but one element of the minigame left: when you have id-ed all but one wand
20:26:26 <tenofswords> isn't "id'd all but one" something for every category anyway
20:26:39 <elliptic> that's a problem with other consumable types also though, yeah (would be good to fix it sometime)
20:26:50 <bh> With the monster summoner nerf, should we adjust their experience modifiers downward?
20:27:08 <bh> kilobyte: once while playing a TSO follower I realized that my only un-ID'd scroll was torment :D
20:27:24 <kilobyte> I have a WIP commit that puts items into categories: for example, "scroll", "scroll that said nothing happens", "scroll that takes an item", identifying the last one
20:27:38 <kilobyte> but, it breaks autopickup of jewels identified this way
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20:28:01 <|amethyst> kilobyte: jewellery autopickup tricks are already broken because of monsters
20:28:04 <elliptic> yeah, that autopickup hack is annoying
20:28:10 <elliptic> they are also broken with ash ID
20:28:29 <kilobyte> ash ID hacks that away by _first_ checking autopickup, then identifying it
20:29:06 <elliptic> really? I guess that was fixed sometime when I wasn't paying attention then
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20:35:53 <SamB> or the hack is broken too
Crypt Cleanser
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Joined: Monday, 14th February 2011, 05:35
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