The Tavern

A Vehumet zealot designed to crush and blast it's way through the dungeon. It does not come with a book, but it does have Vehumet with the standard zealot amount of piety, to give you knowledge of a spell from the start, and more gradually as you continue gaining piety with Vehumet. I know adding zealots(or backgrounds in general) isn't a major desire currently, but this is a core starting set that'd be fun. Not really a Reaver 2.0.

Starting Equipment

Code:: +0 +0 weapon of choice +0 ring mail bread ration

Starting Skills

Code:: Fighting: 2 Weapon: 2 Armour: 2 Spellcasting: 2 Conjurations: 2

Obviously the other zealots don't give you conjurations magic. So when the niche talk pops up, the closest thing is a Conjurer. Yes, it is possible to grab a conjurer, put on some mail, grab a club and start swinging away, and even get those skills up to 2 like this proposed zealot. But you can also take a fighter and turn it into an assassin artificer wizard guy. Doesn't make those backgrounds useless. The skills are low enough to the point where it wont make a fighter/conjurer obsolete; yet just good enough to make both decent from the start. It is the ultimate middle ground.

The player is challenged with balancing the above skills(and any other skills they want) along with adapting to what spells Vehumet offers them. The starting experience is unique compared to any other character you could have on D:1. With Vehumet's unhasty piety gain, players can alternate smoothly between getting their Great Mace of Doom into a quicker, stronger swing; and getting another spell online as they are gifted by Vehumet over time. These reasons make Vehumet the perfect God for a zealot class like this.

I like this idea, a lot actually, but giving them a different ring might prove to be a little more realistic since wizardry is kind of powerful to give to a starting background. Maybe a +1, +1 ring of slaying might be more appropriate? Also, you may want to trash vehumet from the mix, he is a little too powerful to have from the start, you could feasibly get poison arrow online before you even enter the lair.

As for the name, Battle-mage sounds a bit too much like Warrior-mage(the name of one of the categories of backgrounds). How about "Scry"?

This is the "reaver" class that was removed quite some time ago.

Wasn't Reaver just cj in leather armour?

Anyway we don't need more zealot backgrounds. Gods, in general, are supposed to be found.

This background seems to start out as the worst of both worlds, except for that ring. By D:5, it turns into a conjurer with a little more Vehumet piety. I dislike the idea of zealots existing at all, with the possible exception of ones which radically change d:1-3 (healers, maybe) or which give gods hard to get normally (AK, CK for the immediate challenge), and this seems worse than the ones that are still around in being interesting.

One-Eyed Jack wrote:Wasn't Reaver just cj in leather armour?

ok then this is reaver with like 2 inventory changes that make it worse and a god for no reason

Bring back Jester

crate wrote:
One-Eyed Jack wrote:Wasn't Reaver just cj in leather armour?

ok then this is reaver with like 2 inventory changes that make it worse and a god for no reason

So not really that much like reaver, actually. I think Klown was correct to say that the background proposed was not like reaver 2.0.

Anyway, about the actual proposal:

Ring of Wizardry is a bad idea, Vehumet provides a wizardry boost to conjurations anyway. Switching it to slaying doesn't make it any better.

Jewelry doesn't make for a very good piece of starting equipment for a background, for a variety of reasons. Mainly though, it just doesn't present you with any interesting options—unlike books it doesn't make you think harder about how you will be training your skills and which spells you will prioritize, and unlike other starting equipment it isn't linked to dodging/armor/weapon skills at all and it will probably be a while before you find two other useful rings that would introduce some competition for the finger slots. It is just a boost to power that involves zero decision for a long time. Starting with a good piece of jewelry is almost as bad as having this background start the game at level 2 or something.

Okay, sorry bit of a rant... But anyway, if you take away the ring, I almost like this. Being gifted spells is a neat mechanic and I like the idea of a conjurations-based background that doesn't know exactly what spells it will have available to it, even early on. In my book that makes Vehumet an OK starting god in ways that 100% were not the case a few versions ago when he just threw three predetermined books at you, then another three predetermined books at you. My reservation is that I'm just not sure that Vehumet's spell gifting is actually both sufficiently limited and also random enough to provide a unique experience and make the background really distinct in practice. I don't really think so, ultimately. So I'm not sure it would work—unfortunately.

@crate,wheals,one-eyed jack: Not everything that is discussed is going to make it into the game, so throwing an idea out the window before even exploring the options is unwise.

While I do agree zealots a bad design decision, I think this is an interesting idea that is worth exploring, if for nothing else than for fun.

If you were to remove vehumet from the picture and give them something else, then that might work. Something like this:

Wizard hat
Ring mail
Buckler
One-handed weapon
Book of minor annoyances: sting, flame tongue, freeze, sublimation of blood, swiftness

Keep in mind, this is just an example, it is entirely possible to make a whole new book of spells if need be.

I guess you're right, if there's some good that can come from a proposal we should look at it.

Part of the problem is that it still seems to be rather weak in the beginning (ring mail and buckler are a fairly serious penalty on d:1) while not making a very large difference later.

The main problem is still, as the devwiki says, that reavers were "hated for being ineffective at two barely-complementary things." Yes, it makes sense to train melee on all conjurers at some point. But the fact that most meleers do not train conjurations, even though they do train other spells, says that there are some problems with the playstyle. Hybrids already often suffer from early game XP deficiencies (even sometimes ones with crazy apts like MfTm and SpEn), and this seems worse than most.

Tiktacy wrote:@crate,wheals,one-eyed jack: Not everything that is discussed is going to make it into the game, so throwing an idea out the window before even exploring the options is unwise.

While I do agree zealots a bad design decision, I think this is an interesting idea that is worth exploring, if for nothing else than for fun.

Well most proposals that don't make it into the game have that in common - their authors have the idea that GDD is purely for fun, like some kind of chat room where you can say "wouldn't it be cool if..." But in reality, unseen programmers aren't going to look through the forum and be like, "omg I just HAVE to code smellglor, the god of odors. That really would be cool!" Proposals that make it into the game actually consider the design process and are typically responses to observed deficiencies in the game. That's why this subtopic's rules are so carefully outlined in its first thread.

I don't think that "zealots are bad design" and I'm the one who helped started the purge of religious backgrounds. In other words, I think that the current starting gods are mostly alright, and I'm very reluctant to add new ones. There is absolutely no reason to allow Vehumet at game start: the whole proposal is completely overpowered, what with ring *and* god.

I think I understand what the OP wanted to achieve, and I got a playing experience like that by playing Monks who went Vehumet.

Removed the ring. Figured it'd be a nice touch for a mage wearing ring mail. If it is seen as pushing it too OP, then that is fine.

dpeg wrote:I don't think that "zealots are bad design" and I'm the one who helped started the purge of religious backgrounds. In other words, I think that the current starting gods are mostly alright, and I'm very reluctant to add new ones. There is absolutely no reason to allow Vehumet at game start: the whole proposal is completely overpowered, what with ring *and* god.

I think I understand what the OP wanted to achieve, and I got a playing experience like that by playing Monks who went Vehumet.

Hi~
Trog gets his own background where you start out with Berserk. I don't think Vehumet is really an OP problem in that regard. He'll start you off with shock at 20%+ fail rate.

A Conjurer gets better skills(4 conj), a good book, and you'll grab Vehumet at an early D:2 altar or the temple pretty early on anyways.
Vehumet's design is really good, he'll slowly give you spells so the player can truly be a blast and smash character from the start. His pace of spell-gifting is enough that the player can focus on making melee good in between getting each new spell online; if they choose to take it. It'd be the only starting background with melee and destructive magic skills. Shock, Shock, smash. The Battle Mage.

Yes, berserkers are something like easy mode. But: (1) Trog matters from turn one. (2) There are many more magical backgrounds than melee-oriented ones. (3) Backgrounds are for early survival: Trog excels at this, Vehumet -- as you explain -- not so much. But if you want the challenge of "I'm casting the random spells my god gives me", temple Vehumet suffices. As I said, I had lots of fun with OpMo of Vehumet.

mikee wrote:
Tiktacy wrote:@crate,wheals,one-eyed jack: Not everything that is discussed is going to make it into the game, so throwing an idea out the window before even exploring the options is unwise.

While I do agree zealots a bad design decision, I think this is an interesting idea that is worth exploring, if for nothing else than for fun.

Well most proposals that don't make it into the game have that in common - their authors have the idea that GDD is purely for fun, like some kind of chat room where you can say "wouldn't it be cool if..." But in reality, unseen programmers aren't going to look through the forum and be like, "omg I just HAVE to code smellglor, the god of odors. That really would be cool!" Proposals that make it into the game actually consider the design process and are typically responses to observed deficiencies in the game. That's why this subtopic's rules are so carefully outlined in its first thread.

The op followed the guidelines perfectly though?

As far as zealots being bad design decisions, my opinion hasn't changed. It leads to less variation in games, which is something I sort of think crawl is trying to move away from. That is why I like the idea of a battle age class that starts without any spells, the possibilities are endless.

Why would a Zealot of Vehumet, the god of destructive magic, start with anything but magic skills and a robe?
I see no connection with the god and the items/skills you suggested.

KittenInMyCerealz wrote:Why would a Zealot of Vehumet, the god of destructive magic, start with anything but magic skills and a robe?
I see no connection with the god and the items/skills you suggested.

I think other people have made the connection, casters don't HAVE to always wear robes, I usually find myself using FDA depending on my character by late-end game.

Tiktacy wrote:by late-end game.

My point exactly.
By mid/end-game you have your magic skills trained and even mages can dedicate their skills on armor and such.
But for a low level character that is supposedly a worshipper of a god of magic, it makes no sense to have him trained more on fighting than on spells, and have equipment dedicated to meleeing monsters rather than blasting them with spells.

Currently, there simply is no god that would fit battle-mage very well.

KittenInMyCerealz wrote:
Tiktacy wrote:by late-end game.

My point exactly.
By mid/end-game you have your magic skills trained and even mages can dedicate their skills on armor and such.
But for a low level character that is supposedly a worshipper of a god of magic, it makes no sense to have him trained more on fighting than on spells, and have equipment dedicated to meleeing monsters rather than blasting them with spells.

Currently, there simply is no god that would fit battle-mage very well.

I put ringmail on my elves the moment I find elvish ringmail, I wear ringmail with dwarves necromancers if I'm not worshipping Kiku, granted these are some specific examples, but if I had a starting kit dedicated to it, I probably would give it a go.

The Tavern

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