Axe buffing

[Mankeli]

Right now, I don't feel like axes are weapons worth using on most characters. Hand axes are still bad, broad axes are rare and I'd rather have "the old battleaxe" with 17 damage over the new one with 15 base damage and cleave. So, three suggestions, if I may:

1) Make war axes appear more frequently.
Why? Because hand axes are a bad starting weapon and I feel the weapon progression for axe users is pretty bad at the moment. Getting stuck with that hand axe you started with, like until d:8, is pretty horrid. I'm not sure about the exact numbers but they should be a bit more commonly found than morningstars which are superior to them in every way.

2) Make broad axes appear more frequently
Why? Because war axes too are bad one-handers even in the mid-term and there aren't a lot option for one-hand axe wielders. They should be a bit more common than scimitars. Once again not sure about the exact numbers.

3) Buff battleaxes base damage from 15 to 16, reduce accuracy from -4 to -5.
Why? Because currently great sword, great mace, GSC/GC, lajatang, triple sword and even glaive and later on bardiche (and also demon whip, demon blade, demon trident, double sword, eveningstar in one-handed weapons, early game definitely scimitars and morningstars as well) are all weapons that I would usually prefer over battleaxes. With the base damage increase battleaxes still have longer delay than greatswords and two (with the recent great mace nerf just one) less base damage than great maces. The accuracy penalty won't matter after early mid-game but I felt like adding just a tiny nerf to compensate. Make them a bit rarer as well to balance, if you please.

And before you go yelling "power creep": I think adding cleave and reducing base damage was an overall nerf to axes (well, hand axes, didn't get their base damage lowered but they were awful) in the part of the game where it matters. Executioner's axe + Makhleb (or TSO against evil monsters) is superior to any other form of melee attack in endless zig-grind but I'm talking about the part of the game that is important for winning. Overall, I feel that cleave becomes useful when your character is strong enough to tab monsters anyways. Cleave is very good with Makhleb even in early midgame if you are fighting a pack of popcorn but overall, if I want to win I don't usually choose axes anymore (barring good finds, of course). That's why I feel that a little buff is in order.

[1010011010]

Cleaving on axes by itself was a small buff since It's actually something that you don't want to have to use, but you'll be glad to have it when you need it. Unfortunately Axe stats seem more of a nerf than cleaving was a buff and I too now avoid axes on most species for probably maces or polearms.

I would probably play more axes if they were 1 point worse on Acc/Dam or a bit slower to their M&F or long blades counterparts.

[Mankeli]

I would probably play more axes if they were 1 point worse on Acc/Dam or a bit slower to their M&F or long blades counterparts.

Yes, although M&F is not necessarily the weapon type you would want to aim with this axe buff because they are so very good. But, like you said, long blades are superior as well compared to axes and with polearms' reaching you get fun combos like spectral weapon in a corridor behind you. Comparison to staves is a bit trickier because of staff of foos exist (lajatangs, of course, are freaking amazing but very rare).

Broad axe + 1 damage buff could also be within the realm of possibilities but the problem with them is that you just can't find them in the first place so I would rather address that since they are pretty ok weapons.

EDIT. Also, the niche for axes was, at least one point in time, that while the one-handers were not great compared to the rare demon whips, eveningstars and double swords they were "THE two-handed weapon" group. My buff to battleaxes would help to reclaim their throne.

[sanka]

The best and biggest buff for axes would be to create more situations where avoiding fighting multiple monsters at once is not possible/hard.

Also, if starting with a hand axe is so bad, than I think it would be better to buff hand axes a little bit, rather than making spawn rates more similar to maces.

[Mankeli]

The best and biggest buff for axes would be to create more situations where avoiding fighting multiple monsters at once is not possible/hard.

Could be true but these kind of buffs are the most difficult to come up with as well. I was looking for a quick fix which wouldn't rock the boat too much .

I think cleave is fine as a mechanic -it's just that I don't find it very strong especially in part of the game that is still tricky for survival (later on in the game, as I pointed out earlier, cleave + big axe + Makhleb in Zig equals murder).

Also, if starting with a hand axe is so bad, than I think it would be better to buff hand axes a little bit, rather than making spawn rates more similar to maces.

The hand axe being not good is just a part of the problem, as I see it (not saying it couldn't be changed too if found necessary ). You want to progress from your starting weapon really soon on melee bashers anyways (on most cases) and I just don't find axes as a very attractive option even when taking the hand axe out of the equation.

[dck]

Cleaving could also not be awful in the real game (so not speedruns trying to minimize turns and zigs) and actually encourage you in some way to be surrounded by enemies by increasing the damage you do to everyone the more enemies you have around you instead of dealing 75% at whoever you are not attacking, which is terrible and in no way worth not fighting in a corridor 1v1 and thus using a better weapon type.

[damiac]

That'd be rather silly if you did bonus damage for cleaving... Although maybe it would make some sense while berserking.

I feel like cleave is one of those things where you don't go out of your way to take advantage of it, but it really comes in handy when you're facing fast enemies on an open layout. Sometimes you don't get the opportunity to fight in a corridor, and that's when cleave really shines.

In my experience, that happens quite a bit in abyss, killing the 6 or 7 enemies around you in 3 turns instead of 10 makes a big difference.

My biggest complaint about axes is the same as you guys. It generally seems to go hand axe - war axe - battle axe... Now where can I find an exec axe?

It's odd to me that you are talking about one handed axes though. I thought the general consensus was that it's not worth it to go 1h with a shield, it's almost always better to just go 2h.

[njvack]

Now where can I find an exec axe?

Acquirement?

[Sar]

I had games without a single acq scroll, and then you are stuck with a dingy battleaxe, which is enough to win, of course, but not a great weapon on its own. Also, while I love acquiring weapons, every weapon acquirement is a wasted potential of getting a goodwand.
I think that cleave should deal at least 100% damage to other dudes. Possibly cleave all the dudes around you, too, as it does in Brogue. I honestly don't think that will be OP outside of maybe stuff like Zigs, but I recall Zigs not being taken into equation when it comes to balance, right?

[asdu]

Honestly, just nerf maces. -1 damage for both morningstars and great maces. Ta-da! Balance restored.

[Sar]

The funny part is that they still would be better than axes.

[Mankeli]

Cleaving could also not be awful in the real game (so not speedruns trying to minimize turns and zigs) and actually encourage you in some way to be surrounded by enemies by increasing the damage you do to everyone the more enemies you have around you instead of dealing 75% at whoever you are not attacking, which is terrible and in no way worth not fighting in a corridor 1v1 and thus using a better weapon type.

Yes, buffing cleave effect instead is definitely a valid option as well.

Honestly, just nerf maces. -1 damage for both morningstars and great maces. Ta-da! Balance restored.

Have you heard about other weapon classes, such as long blades, which are also better than axes? The point I was trying to make on several occasion was that 1) axes don't only compare badly with maces & flails but with other weapon classes as well (most certainly long blades whether you prefer one-handed or two-handed weapons, I'd prefer glaive over battleaxe as well, and let's not even talk about lajatangs) and 2) axes are bad compared to their former, pre-cleave, version (well, I guess hand axes are marginally better but they are still not good).

Also what Sar just said above.

[Sandman25]

Well, I used axes with Mi of Trog, HO of Beogh, LO of Xom, DD of Makhleb and they were fine. So I think Axes are good enough for some species with high aptitude like Staves are good for conjuration-based casters.

[Arrhythmia]

Tangential, but can we make the Axe of Woe spawn in the dungeon and have it disappear forever after you kill a dude?

[dck]

That would make first happy and then very sad and you wouldn't want that right arrhy.

[crate]

I think axes are fine.

[asdu]

Have you heard about other weapon classes, such as long blades, which are also better than axes? The point I was trying to make on several occasion was that 1) axes don't only compare badly with maces & flails but with other weapon classes as well (most certainly long blades whether you prefer one-handed or two-handed weapons, I'd prefer glaive over battleaxe as well, and let's not even talk about lajatangs) and 2) axes are bad compared to their former, pre-cleave, version (well, I guess hand axes are marginally better but they are still not good).
Also what Sar just said above.

I think axes on their own are fine and viable and everything. I don't think they need a buff. It's just other weapon types that make them look bad, and actually, a lot of this is due to availability of top-tier weapons for other types (namely, great maces and bardiches) rather than those top-tier weapons being superior (except maybe for the bardiche, which could take a -1 damage nerf and still be fine), as well as lack of a lategame-worthy one handed axe (i.e. no demon axe).
In fact, I'd say only maces and polearms are clearly better weapon types than axes: maces because they're all over the place and polearms because reaching is generally better than cleaving and bardiches are carried by orc knights/warlords and vault guards unlike exec axes which are only found either on the ground or in the hands of Rupert (maybe Wiglaf too? Not sure).
I don't see the long blades' superiority except for a slightly better selection of early-midgame weapons (falchion > hand axe, scimitar far more common than broad axe). But, assuming you're going for a twohander, then greatswords and battleaxes are about on par (same deal with triple swords vs exec axes). Staves bring the axes' and long blades' issue with finding worthy upgrades to the next level since lajatangs (the only staff you care about unless you're a caster) are rare.

[Mankeli]

I think axes are fine.

Care to elaborate?

Fine as in "not every weapon type needs to as strong as others" or fine as in "axes are not weaker than other weapons" (which I don't think is true) or fine as in "axes are not that much weaker than others"? Or some other type of "fine"?

[crate]

Axes aren't really weaker than other weapons (well, polearms at least). I used to think cleaving was not good but my opinion on that has changed.

[duvessa]

I still think reaching is significantly better than cleaving on most characters (and if you're going with two-handed weapons bardiches are way easier to get than executioner's axes, however, broad axes are more common than demon tridents and better than tridents). Maces are probably still the biggest issue though; I'd much rather have a great mace than a battleaxe, glaive, or great sword, and the larger weapons are not only not necessarily better (24/26 skill is actually a LOT compared to 20, skill cost goes up really sharply) but so rare you aren't very likely to get a usable one at all without Trog (if someone says acquirement is "reliable" for this you should probably never take any of their advice again).

fighting in a corridor 1v1

can we PLEASE stop pretending "fighting in a corridor" and "fighting 1vs1" are the same thing, this line of thinking leads to "corridor nerfs" that do absolutely nothing to prevent fighting 1vs1 (slime creatures...)

[dpeg]

duvessa: (offtopic) Yes, "corridor" and "one on one" are not the same thing, although there's a relation. I know you don't like slime creatures but overall feedback seems to indicate they do what they were intended for (make position a bit more relevant in a new way).

[dck]

The fact fighting in a corridor (with a corner nearby or when nobody has reaching or has bolt or smite-targetted spells) means you fight things one at a time does not imply you can only fight things one at a time in a corridor (stones exist) and I assume anyone with the power to make changes already knows that so do I really have to type it all out every time?
Also I've started to see dtridents in D: 12-16 lately strangely often wielded by Op, mostly. How common is this?

[duvessa]

Also I've started to see dtridents in D: 12-16 lately strangely often wielded by Op, mostly. How common is this?

Pretty common, I was actually hoping that this was going to be considered a bug and removed.

[dck]

I agree with monster Op being considered a bug and removed.

[duvessa]

That's what I meant.

[galehar]

From the recent weapon discussions, there seems to be one consensus: M&F are both common and strong making them the dominating weapon type. So let's nerf them to bring back some balance.

[galehar]

Also I've started to see dtridents in D: 12-16 lately strangely often wielded by Op, mostly.

Not anymore, thanks to MarvinPA.

[Klown]

So what are the current complaints for axes after the above moves?

[Volteccer_Jack]

So what are the current complaints for axes after the above moves?

They're still the worst weapon type. Great mace just got nerfed a bit, they're still better than battleaxes and reaching will always be better than cleaving. But don't worry, as long as the dwarves and orcs continue to be absurdly strong, axes will see plenty of use no matter how good or bad they are.

[Sandman25]

I am not sure it is possible to have several weapons without one being the worst.

[acvar]

The complaints here are just one symptom of a bigger problem. The fact that axes are generally percieved as weeker then other classes of weapons, the fact that some weapons have inconsistent upgrade paths, the fact that you sometimes play spellcasters with no weopon skill that are better at melee then dedicated fighters due to a lucky weopon find, the fact that a common response to the often asked question of which stat should I increases is "if you plan on casting spells at all just pump intelligence", the fact that weapon skills have clear breakpoints for how high you should pump them, and probably other things are all ultimately symptoms of damage being primarily a function of what weapon you wield instead of your characters skills/stats. A far better solution to fiddleing with the nobs on weapons would be to simply refocus what really matters when it comes to damage dealing. You can play with the numbers, but I would suggest something along these lines:

Base damage is rand((weapon skill + stat)/2)
This damages is then modifided by the weapon you weild. One handed weapons would range from 90% to 110% while 2 handed weapons would range from 120% to 130%. Enchantment bonuses would directly add to this percentage so a double sword that normaly is 110% at +0 would be 115% at +5. Simple straight forward, and easy for players to understand without spoilers or spreadsheets.

That would address all the problems I mentioned in the first paragraph. Problems that for the most part have been brought up in other posts and have already recieved attention from developers.

[damiac]

Nerfing great maces as a response to axes being too weak makes very little sense... That does not make axes any better. Not that I think axes are bad personally.

So the options really are: Swords - Good if you want a shield, best possible weapons, but much rarer than maces. Triple sword chance seems comparable to exec axe.
Maces - All around decent weapons, you will find plentiful great maces, plus whips are nice and fast, so good for some brands. GSC is a special case.
Axes - You're usually picking this due to apts. Terrible one handed weapons. two handed ones aren't as good as swords, but you get cleaving. You'll need oka, trog, or a lot of luck to get an exec axe.

Small blades and staves are their own niches, I wouldn't really compare them against the big three.

[Sar]

the fact that you sometimes play spellcasters with no weopon skill that are better at melee then dedicated fighters due to a lucky weopon find

I don't see the problem, being lucky and finding a good melee weapon and using it is one of things that make Crawl fun.

a common response to the often asked question of which stat should I increases is "if you plan on casting spells at all just pump intelligence"

This is often wrong.

[acvar]

I don't see the problem, being lucky and finding a good melee weapon and using it is one of things that make Crawl fun.

Well then I am sure you would be all for it in the reverse wouldn't you? A single magic item that turned a hill orc fighter with no magic skills into a compentent spellcaster every bit the equal of a character that had spent there entire carreer focusing on spellcasting skills. Does that seem reasonable to you? Does that seem like good game design to you?

This is often wrong.

I strongly dissagree with your use of the word often here. I would accept sometimes, but certainly not often. And if you dissagree with me on this one then you also disagree with the developers who have been suggesting ways to fix this for more versions then I can remember now.

[njvack]

Hey folks, if you want to talk about stats, make (or necro) a thread for it. I can't split this one as things are too twingled.

[Sar]

A single magic item that turned a hill orc fighter with no magic skills into a compentent spellcaster every bit the equal of a character that had spent there entire carreer focusing on spellcasting skills.

The only answer I can give is that it's an exaggeration/generalization.

I strongly dissagree with your use of the word often here.

Then you'd be wrong. All characters but Berserkers want to cast spells, but Int main effect is boosting your spellpower (at least to my understanding), and a lot of good spells do not benefit hugely from spellpower. Meanwhile, Dex influences your EV hugely, and EV is good. Str can be good now too if you want to use a heavier armour and lack natural Str, or just have low Str and want to haul around a lot of items like decks, other evocables or whatever.

[and into]

I don't see the problem, being lucky and finding a good melee weapon and using it is one of things that make Crawl fun.

A single magic item that turned a hill orc fighter with no magic skills into a compentent spellcaster every bit the equal of a character that had spent there entire carreer focusing on spellcasting skills. Does that seem reasonable to you?

Putting aside your crazy hyperbole, rods and wands do exist in game, and do basically what you describe. Yeah you sometimes want some evocations for rods but deflect missiles is good with low/no evocations, and the best wands are effectively the same regardless of skill (digging, haste, heal wounds, teleportation, invisibility). And even without a lot of evocations you can get a hell of a lot even out of those effects that are somewhat skill-dependent.

Now to address your crazy hyperbole: Except antimagic, weapons that are lucky for a Be are generally lucky for someone that started as a wizard. Someone with 0 skill can use certain weapons to good effect, but still not as well as someone with levels in the relevant skill. So what is the problem, here? A dagger or whip of electrocution is good with 0 weapon skill, but even better with skill, so how is that an issue? Some spells are great without high spell power (in fact some of the best spells are like that). I mean sure, sometimes you start as a Be with M&F, then find an awesome axe or long blade, but "casters" sometimes run into a similar problem as well: You start as a FE, but first book you come across is Ice; you started as an AE, but the first couple of books you come across are hex-centric, and don't immediately work with your skills. In either case you can adapt, or you just ignore those drops (perhaps somewhat wistfully) if they aren't worth it.

[partial]

what about a short duration damage/hit debuff to cleaved enemies? (basically lasting just long enough so that it is constantly active on enemies you are attacking but too short to stack on every enemy in sight)

this will make attacking multiple enemies more feasible and increase survivability for axe users

it would also make players more confident to engage a swarm of enemies (which is half the fun of using axes)

[skyspire]

Now where can I find an exec axe?

In my last win, I found the only exec axe of the game in a treasure trove. I'm surprised how rare they are.. I didn't find another even after 15 Zig levels and 34 Pan levels.