Unfair Death (Drowning)

[snow]

Drowning deaths, 99.99% of the time, are ridiculously unfair instant kills. Can drowning just be removed? The game could just remember where you first went over deep water and move you there. The same goes for lava (though I suppose you could take some minor damage if you don't have rf+).

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14-a0-1637-gd423c14 (console) character file.

1708222 Sky the Archmage (level 27, 224/239 HPs)
             Began as a High Elf Wizard on Dec 24, 2013.
             Was the Champion of Makhleb.
             Drowned
             ... on Level 20 of a ziggurat on Dec 26, 2013.
             The game lasted 12:38:19 (1060972 turns).

Sky the Archmage (High Elf Wizard)               Turns: 1060972, Time: 12:38:19

HP 224/239       AC 27     Str  9      XL: 27
MP  30/50        EV 42     Int 29 (40) God: Makhleb [******]
Gold 13223       SH 23     Dex 23      Spells: 14 memorised,  1 level left

rFire  + + +     SeeInvis +     b - staff of energy (curse) {!a}
rCold  + + .     Clarity  .     G - +2 robe "Asaitam" {Dex+5 Int+4}
rNeg   + + +     Conserve +     B - +1 buckler {AC+3} (curse)
rPois  +         rCorr    +     a - +2 hat of the Alchemist {rElec rF+ rC+ MR+}
rElec  +         rRot     +     K - +2 cloak {rCorr, Cons}
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     S - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3} (curse)
rMut   .         Warding  +     t - +0 pair of dwarf boots {+Jump} (curse)
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     q - cursed macabre finger necklace {Ward}
                                r - ring of see invisible
                                F - cursed ring of Prar {rF++ EV+4 Int+2 Stlth+}
                                H - cursed ring of Vitality {Regen HP+15}

@: lich-form, very slightly contaminated, hasted and slowed, extraordinarily
resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely stealthy
A: no striking features
a: End Transformation, Minor Destruction, Lesser Servant of Makhleb, Major
Destruction, Greater Servant of Makhleb, Renounce Religion, Evoke Jump Attack
}: 10/15 runes: decaying, serpentine, slimy, silver, golden, demonic, glowing,
magical, fiery, dark


You were on level 20 of a ziggurat.
You worshipped Makhleb.
Makhleb was exalted by your worship.
You were not hungry.

You were in lich-form.

You visited 15 branches of the dungeon, and saw 74 of its levels.
You visited Pandemonium 7 times, and saw 66 of its levels.
You visited the Abyss 2 times.
You visited 2 Ziggurats, and saw 33 of their levels (deepest: 20).

You collected 17029 gold pieces.
You spent 3806 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Armour
 a - the cursed +2 hat of the Alchemist (worn) {rElec rF+ rC+ MR+}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 3 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 t - a cursed +0 pair of dwarven boots of jumping (worn)
 B - a cursed +1 buckler of protection (worn)
 G - the cursed +2 robe "Asaitam" (worn) {Dex+5 Int+4}
   (You took it off a deep elf demonologist on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It affects your dexterity (+5).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 K - a +2 cloak of preservation (worn)
 O - a cursed +7 ice dragon armour
 S - a cursed +2 pair of gloves of strength (worn)
Magical devices
 c - a wand of teleportation (9)
 f - a wand of heal wounds (9)
 u - a wand of teleportation (8)
Scrolls
 d - 3 scrolls of identify
 j - 7 scrolls of remove curse
 l - 10 scrolls of teleportation
 m - 6 scrolls of recharging
 p - 5 scrolls of amnesia
 L - 8 scrolls of blinking
Jewellery
 g - the cursed amulet of Phogiump {rMut rF+}
   (You took it off a tengu warrior on level 1 of the Depths)   
   
   [amulet of resist mutation]
   It protects you from fire.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 i - a cursed amulet of stasis
 k - the ring "Ryvaotwa" {Str+4 Dex+2 Int+6}
   (You found it on level 10 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of intelligence]
   It affects your intelligence (+6).
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your dexterity (+2).
 q - the cursed macabre finger necklace (around neck) {Ward}
   (You found it on level 7 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [amulet of warding]
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 r - a ring of see invisible (right hand)
 v - the cursed amulet "Ybasmaw" {Gourm rElec rN+}
   (You found it on level 7 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [amulet of the gourmand]
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 y - the cursed ring "Ziloma" {rC++ Str+3 Dam+2}
   (You found it in Pandemonium)   
   
   [ring of strength]
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+2).
   It greatly protects you from cold.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 E - a cursed amulet of clarity
 F - the cursed ring of Prar (left hand) {rF++ EV+4 Int+2 Stlth+}
   (You took it off a naga on level 4 of the Depths)   
   
   [ring of evasion]
   It affects your evasion (+4).
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It greatly protects you from fire.
   It makes you much more stealthy.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 H - the cursed ring of Vitality (on amulet) {Regen HP+15}
   (You found it on level 10 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of regeneration]
   It affects your health (+15).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
Potions
 e - 2 potions of magic
 h - 6 potions of resistance
 o - 3 potions of restore abilities
 x - 6 potions of speed
 z - 3 potions of cure mutation
 A - 7 potions of curing
 C - 4 potions of heal wounds
 D - a potion of porridge
Magical staves
 b - a cursed staff of energy (weapon) {!a}
Miscellaneous
 n - a crystal ball of energy


   Skills:
 O Level 27 Fighting
 + Level 24.3 Armour
 O Level 27 Dodging
 O Level 27 Stealth
 + Level 20.9 Shields
 O Level 27 Unarmed Combat
 O Level 27 Spellcasting
 O Level 27 Conjurations
 - Level 22.1 Hexes
 - Level 10.5 Charms
 - Level 10.9 Summonings
 - Level 17.2 Necromancy
 - Level 13.6 Translocations
 - Level 17.5 Transmutations
 O Level 27 Fire Magic
 O Level 27 Air Magic
 - Level 17.3 Earth Magic
   Level 7.7 Poison Magic
 O Level 27 Invocations
 O Level 27 Evocations


You had one spell level left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Lehudib's Crystal Sp  Conj/Erth      ########..   1%          8    N/A
b - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          0%          2    N/A
c - Controlled Blink      Tloc           N/A          2%          7    N/A
d - Dig                   Erth           #######.     0%          4    N/A
e - Apportation           Tloc           #######...   0%          1    N/A
f - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      ########..   2%          9    N/A
g - Control Teleport      Chrm/Tloc      #######...   1%          4    N/A
h - Mass Abjuration       Summ           #######...   1%          6    N/A
i - Invisibility          Hex            ########     1%          6    N/A
j - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ########..   0%          3    N/A
l - Necromutation         Trmt/Necr      ########..   3%          8    N/A
r - Deflect Missiles      Chrm/Air       #######...   1%          6    N/A
t - Tornado               Air            ########..   2%          9    N/A
w - Haste                 Chrm           #######.     1%          6    N/A


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (16/16)            Temple (1/1) D:6             Orc (4/4) D:10
    Elf (3/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:10          Swamp (5/5) Lair:4
  Snake (5/5) Lair:6        Slime (6/6) Lair:8       Vaults (5/5) D:14
  Blade (1/1) Vaults:4       Tomb (3/3) Forest:3       Hell (1/1)
    Dis (0/7) Hell            Geh (0/7) Hell            Coc (0/7) Hell
    Tar (0/7) Hell            Zot (5/5) Depths:6     Forest (5/5) Vaults:2
 Depths (6/6) D:16       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
the Shining One
Beogh

Shops:
D:4 ?   D:6 ?   D:9 /   D:13 *   Orc:3 [   Orc:4 [}[!   Elf:2 :   Snake:1 (
Vaults:1 *

Portals:
Hell: Lair:8 Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:5 Depths:6
Abyss: Depths:4
Ziggurat: Depths:4

Annotations:
D:2 exclusion: downstairs
D:8 exclusion: downstairs
D:9 exclusion: downstairs
D:12 exclusion: 2 downstairs
D:13 exclusion: downstairs
D:15 Roxanne
Orc:3 exclusion: downstairs
Elf:1 exclusion: 2 downstairs
Lair:8 exclusions: door and downstairs
Snake:4 Lamia
Slime:3 exclusion: downstairs
Slime:5 exclusion: 2 downstairs
Vaults:4 exclusion: downstairs
Zot:3 exclusion: downstairs
Forest:1 exclusion: oklob plant
Depths:1 exclusions: fire dragon and very ugly thing, Mara
Depths:3 exclusion: downstairs
Depths:4 exclusions: door and 1 more exclusion, Mennas

Message History

You kill the rotting devil! You kill the soul eater! You destroy the mummy!
Makhleb accepts your kill.
You feel nervous for a moment...
Your amulet of stasis glows black for a moment.
The jiangshi is engulfed in roaring flames.
The greater mummy points at you and mumbles some strange words.
Something smites you!
The greater mummy mumbles some strange words.
The titan skeleton is engulfed in roaring flames.
The guardian mummy is engulfed in roaring flames.
The greater mummy mumbles some strange words.
The reaper completely misses you.
A mummy, a guardian mummy, 2 greater mummies and a mummy priest come into view.
You channel some magical energy.
Your fire vortex dissipates!
The winds around you start to calm down.
You float gracefully downwards. You fall into the water!
You try to escape, but your burden drags you down!
You drown...
You die...

       ▓▓▓
    ......§§..▓▓
   .§..§§§§§...▓▓
  .§.§§§§§§§....▓▓
 .Z.§§§§§§§§§....▓▓
 MZ§§§§Z§§§§§§....▓▓
 MM§§§§2§zZ§W§.....▓▓
MM§§§§§§§§MMM§§.....▓▓
§z§§§§§VL§W§§§§......▓▓
=§M§§§§§§§§§§§§.....∩.▓
 M§§§§§§§§§§§§.......▓▓
 §§§§Z§§§M§§§§......▓▓
 .§§§§§§§§§§§......▓▓
  .§§§§§§§§§§.....▓▓
   MMZM§§§§......▓▓
    §4..........▓▓
     ..........▓▓


You could see 6 greater mummies, a reaper, a mummy priest, a jiangshi, 2
phantasmal warriors, 4 guardian mummies, a blue devil, 2 flying skulls, 3
mummies, a storm dragon simulacrum, an iron dragon skeleton, 3 golden dragon
skeletons and a titan skeleton.

[Igxfl]

Unfair Death (Entered Dungeon)

More seriously, though, most drowning does seem pretty obnoxious. Unfortunately, no obvious alternatives spring to mind -- what else happens when Fly expires or you get paralyzed while flapping your wings?

[snow]

You wash up on the last tile of shallow water or dry land that you visited. Alternatively, you could wash up on the closest tile of shallow water or dry land. Isn't that much obvious?

[snow]

Also I'd like to suggest that flight is removed from tornado.

Flight is meant to be a tool used to get over water. Tornado's flight just randomly kills you when you fail to notice that you just got trampled.

[galehar]

You wash up on the last tile of shallow water or dry land that you visited. Alternatively, you could wash up on the closest tile of shallow water or dry land. Isn't that much obvious?

So, if a fight is going badly, just go drown yourself for a free instant escape. Nice.

[Zammy]

You wash up on the last tile of shallow water or dry land that you visited. Alternatively, you could wash up on the closest tile of shallow water or dry land. Isn't that much obvious?

It obvious that you'll sink like a rock because all the stuff you are carrying.
But hey, maybe that would be an option for drowning. Lose all your items in order to save your life and then wash up to a closest land tile.

And honestly, drowning is far from unfair death. Drowning is usually a dumb death. At least I felt like an idiot last time I took a dip in a river of lava.

[dpeg]

There is a lot of logic in Crawl to prevent accidental lava and water deaths. I have experienced these too and while they didn't feel very satisfying to me, I couldn't blame anyone but myself. I don't think that non-death is an option, so the only solution I see would be getting rid of water and lava. And that's not worth it, given how rare drowning deaths actually are.

[MDvedh]

Let's remove Orbs of Fire and Orb Guardians because dying when you got so far feels too unfair.

[dck]

As long as spoilery vaults that try to kill the player by doing stupid things like removing his flight over lava or something don't exist I don't think drowning is a big problem; it's still a problem in the sense lava/blue lava are never a threat unless weird situations (whose technical details the player is most likely unfamiliar with) are going on and due to the instakill nature of the feature players should definitely look up the exact details of how it all works to ensure survival.

OCS and deep water vaults I still find dumb.

[Leafsnail]

I've had one unfair drowning death (my flight expired at the same time as deep water rushed under me in Shoals) but I think that's been fixed now. Other than that it's been pretty easy to avoid.

I think it might be good for drowning to go the same way as instant stat-death though, simply because instant death as a punishment for not understanding some game mechanic (eg, that you can't extend evoked flight) doesn't strike me as ideal. Maybe instead of instant death you could get the DROWNING status effect, which dramatically slows your actions and will kill you if you don't get out of deep water in a few turns.

[snow]

I've had one unfair drowning death (my flight expired at the same time as deep water rushed under me in Shoals) but I think that's been fixed now. Other than that it's been pretty easy to avoid.

I think it might be good for drowning to go the same way as instant stat-death though, simply because instant death as a punishment for not understanding some game mechanic (eg, that you can't extend evoked flight) doesn't strike me as ideal. Maybe instead of instant death you could get the DROWNING status effect, which dramatically slows your actions and will kill you if you don't get out of deep water in a few turns.

This is an acceptable solution.

[battaile]

Maybe when you're flying over deep water you could get a notification when the buff is about to expire, and that will kill you if you don't get out of deep water in a few turns.

[wheals]

I've had one unfair drowning death (my flight expired at the same time as deep water rushed under me in Shoals) but I think that's been fixed now. Other than that it's been pretty easy to avoid.

I think it might be good for drowning to go the same way as instant stat-death though, simply because instant death as a punishment for not understanding some game mechanic (eg, that you can't extend evoked flight) doesn't strike me as ideal. Maybe instead of instant death you could get the DROWNING status effect, which dramatically slows your actions and will kill you if you don't get out of deep water in a few turns.

I've had two dorwning deaths. One was similar to yours, my flight expired while I was chopping up a corpse in shoals, and the tide rushing in apparently didn't interrupt my action(?) so I drowned. These problems could be avoided by not allowing deep water to be created on a tile the player is flying on either, though that might be somehow exploitable.

The other was because I didn't know you couldn't scblink when surrounded by all deep water. I had been relying on that to escape once my flight started wearing off, and I didn't understand the message so I assumed that I had just failed to evoke my +Blink item. That was fun...

The thing about the Drowning status is that it couldn't allow any movement at all, so that you couldn't cross deep water using it. Probably it should give you enough time for you to teleport away, while disallowing potion use. Lava drowning could do more (somewhat resistible) damage and prevent scroll use as well(so you'd better have a wand or ring of teleportation, or a (c)blink spell).

Maybe when you're flying over deep water you could get a notification when the buff is about to expire, and that will kill you if you don't get out of deep water in a few turns.

You do get that message, but there are some weird instances where you can drown despite not getting it...

[Leafsnail]

Maybe when you're flying over deep water you could get a notification when the buff is about to expire, and that will kill you if you don't get out of deep water in a few turns.

That prevents accidental deaths but isn't helpful to people who have misunderstood a game mechanic (eg evoked flight can't be extended, can't blink onto deep water) or who don't get that message at all (wing-paralysis, tide rising in the shoals). Instant execution for not knowing about one rarely seen game mechanic doesn't strike me as a good thing.

I've had two dorwning deaths. One was similar to yours, my flight expired while I was chopping up a corpse in shoals, and the tide rushing in apparently didn't interrupt my action(?) so I drowned. These problems could be avoided by not allowing deep water to be created on a tile the player is flying on either, though that might be somehow exploitable.

I agree. It's not any more "exploitable" than simply standing on a tile.

The thing about the Drowning status is that it couldn't allow any movement at all, so that you couldn't cross deep water using it. Probably it should give you enough time for you to teleport away, while disallowing potion use. Lava drowning could do more (somewhat resistible) damage and prevent scroll use as well(so you'd better have a wand or ring of teleportation, or a (c)blink spell).

I'm not sure if there would be any real point in that - if the player had a teleportation scroll they could've escaped before they landed in the water. It only really helps in the case of wing-paralysis. I guess there's a slight problem in that adding a drowing effect could allow people to cross water in vaults that would have previously required flight to access.

[crate]

So since the story of this death wasn't actually posted here maybe I should elaborate. What happened to Sky is that he casts tornado, and then a couple turns later he gets trampled over the deep water. There is no warning of any sort when this happens (except for the water status light appearing, or the trample message; both of these are understandably easy to miss in a zig), since Sky didn't choose to try to go over the water himself.

So the problem here is similar to the one that can (rarely) instakill players in shoals: you drown despite not choosing to go over water, and in a situation where if you had not been flying it would be impossible to drown. Additionally you never get a warning despite it being the intention to give the player warnings for being over liquids with expiring flight.

[njvack]

Maybe, then, treat players with temporary flight as though they're non-flying for the purposes of trampling (and... tides in shoals?)

Yes, it's logically inconsistent but these situations are rare, impossible (I think) to warn about, and feel like cheap (I wouldn't go so far as to say unfair) kills.

[cerebovssquire]

IMO just prevent trample from happening if it would put you over deep water.
edit: oh, that's what you meant njvack, sorry, I misread it - though I would include permanent flight as well because I think the disctinction unnecessarily complicates things

[duvessa]

I just don't think liquids should exist at all. "This is a floor square except you need flight to move over it" is not particularly interesting and liquid-specific monsters are pretty horrible. The possibility of drowning just makes them even more annoying.

[TwilightPhoenix]

0.14 Changelog: The Shoals dried up, all the water turned to sand, and is now called The Desert. All the Merfolk have been replaced by Merfolk that are slowly dying of thirst and all aquatic animals are replaced by flopping, skeletal fish.


More seriously, I do like the idea of preventing trampling into deep water or Shoal's tides from sneaking in beneath you while flying. While it may or may not be unfair, it's definitely cheap and is akin to spawning in a pool of lava in the Abyss, which I believe was fixed. (That one happened to me and thankfully I was a Felid at the time.)

[crate]

Lava generating under you in abyss has been "fixed" multiple times. It may or may not be actually fixed at this point; probably no one knows!

[reaver]

bh has expressed support on ##crawl-dev for removing liquid instadeath.

I've also proposed a "DROWNING" status effect. It seems like the simplest way to remove the instadeath.

I just don't think liquids should exist at all. "This is a floor square except you need flight to move over it" is not particularly interesting and liquid-specific monsters are pretty horrible. The possibility of drowning just makes them even more annoying.

This seems logical to me, but with kraken, Shoals tide, water branches, etc. existing I think this is going to be one of those "if we were designing a roguelike from scratch we would..." things.

Lava generating under you in abyss has been "fixed" multiple times. It may or may not be actually fixed at this point; probably no one knows!

Testing can only prove the presence of bugs, not their absence. -Paraphrase of Edsger W. Dijkstra

[duvessa]

0.14 Changelog: The Shoals dried up, all the water turned to sand, and is now called The Desert. All the Merfolk have been replaced by Merfolk that are slowly dying of thirst and all aquatic animals are replaced by flopping, skeletal fish.

Well if you want you could keep shallow water around for shoals and swamp, since the monster movespeed bonus is occasionally significant. (I think I've entered shoals without flight exactly once, so there is very little difference between shallow/deep water there.)

[Leafsnail]

If nothing else, just making it so you can never be trampled onto deep water and so water can't rush in under you (especially not at the same time as your flight spell expires) would fix the immediate issue. Although making it so that deep water isn't an instakill would mean you could just remove the strange special casing altogether.

[1010011010]

Drowning status seems like the simplest way out, a very short amount of time to walk, blink or fly out the water. After all it usually takes time before someone dies of drowning.

[Arrhythmia]

I think getting rid of flight from tornado (as sky mentioned) is also a good idea. Barring spell level fuckery, everyone who can cast tornado can also cast flight, except one of these two spells is renewable and has a duration that actually lasts into the double digits.

[ZionRavescene]

I like the drowning idea, mostly because it lets you get rid of the special case for blink avoiding deep water, since it won't result in instant death anymore. You may even want to land in deep water, if you can drink a potion of flight next round and it would make you safe from whatever monster is bashing you.

Do the same thing with lava, but the player also takes massive fire damage (so a player with rF+++ could "swim" through a tile or two of lava, but a character without fire protection would probably burn up instantly).

Also, I have one "unfair" drowning death from back before Mountain Dwarves were removed (shoals + ring of flight + safe path to stairs + auto-travel + incoming tide). I believe this is no longer possible, but it still remains one of my more memorable and heart-breaking deaths.

[cerebovssquire]

Getting rid of blink not putting you over deep water seems bad to me. What if you blink onto a deep water square surrounded by other deep water squares? Suddenly you are in a situation where you have to randomly blink and hope to get onto a safe square. Lava would be even worse if implemented like you propose.
You would have early warpers and wizards dying spoilery deaths in sewers, for instance, this is also relevant to some entrance vaults, etc.

.

[duvessa]

Not to mention that many blinks and teleports are involuntary.

[cerebovssquire]

Not to mention that many blinks and teleports are involuntary.

Right, and I don't want "lure dangerous monster to large body of water and hit it with a distortion weapon" to become a valid strategy either (nor monsters with blink either killing themselves near water or having some weird special case where they lose blink near water or, god forbid, another monster spell that works differently from the player version.).

[Sphara]

Uncontrolled translocations should not place you above the deep water no matter if you're flying or not.
I'm not promoting the suggestion water tiles shouldn't exist. But the water themed hiding should be removed imo. It delivers no challenge to rest on one dry land tile between you and a goddamn swamp worm or other similar underwater monster and then finish it eventually. Elemental wellspring could be a decent monster if it had no summoning. Now it is just 'leave it there' monster in most cases.

[sanka]

I had a rather promising dragonformer die in the Hells because I trampled something over lava when the form was expiring. I got no warning as far as I know.

You may change duvessa's proposal if you want to keep more than one type of water terrain: keep shallow water as now, and keep deep water a similar terrain to shallow water but where you are automatically slowed (not just movement) (if not swimmer/flying/giant etc.). Let everybody somehow able to swim in plate mails. Gameplay should triumph realism. I think that could be actually interesting terrain type.

[galehar]

There and there. I think that was easier than removing all liquids from crawl.

[Leafsnail]

I think it should probably be all flight just to make it easier to understand and more consistent ("Enemies can't trample you onto water ever and the tide can't rush up under you ever" rather than having a fairly pointless exception for not expiring flight) but that does solve the immediate problems, thanks.

[Igxfl]

It has always struck me as pretty silly that Fly does not confer trample immunity. I can't even imagine what's supposed to be going on when a flying character gets trampled.

[nicolae]

It has always struck me as pretty silly that Fly does not confer trample immunity. I can't even imagine what's supposed to be going on when a flying character gets trampled.

A big elephant slams into you while you're floating a few feet above the ground and then you flail backwards a bit.

[duvessa]

The fire vortex stumbles backwards!

[Galefury]

The fire vortex stumbles backwards!

It's magic.

[skyspire]

I find it funny that flight doesn't give you the ability to fly over creatures (and trees and plants and mushrooms).

Regarding Tornado, if it didn't confer flight, you don't have to worry about airstrike from mobs like Titan.. sounds like a spell buff to me.