Remove Tileschat Logging


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Barkeep

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Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 02:30

Remove Tileschat Logging

Awhile ago, bh removed tileschat logging only for the change to be reverted because it disabled other logging people wanted to keep around. Is a work-around for this possible? It really clutters up your morgue files for no purpose, unless somebody wants to pop up saying it's a good idea.

Edited to add: you can edit your .rc file to accomplish this for your own game, but there's a privacy angle here too. I've seen examples of the logs being used weirdly, and there are kids playing this game. Given that it's not very useful and there's a remote but possible angle for abuse, I don't really see the need for it.

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Arrhythmia, Sandman25

Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 03:24

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

I like reading chats in morgue files. It gives me some feeling that I am spectating the game. But what is the abuse? Writing erotic literature or text art with it?

Swamp Slogger

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Location: Mother Russia

Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 05:17

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

Reading something like
  Code:
16035 | Elf:1    | killgu: why didn't he pick up the shoal rune?
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: omg
 16087 | Elf:1    | Yermak: lol
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: WTF
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: can you add message
 16087 | Elf:1    | killgu: what message
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: Do you really want to leave this level leaving the rune?
 16087 | Elf:1    | killgu: no
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: fuck
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: this

is always fun!

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 06:33

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

  Code:
 20266 | Lair:6   | Got a crude demon trident
 20267 | Lair:6   | Identified the demon trident "Twoufudy" {pain, rElec MR Int-3} (You acquired it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
 20268 | Lair:6   | bmfx: пиздец у меня лаги. сообщения идут с задержками в минуты!
 20461 | Lair:6   | Sapher: о спс)
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: 2k ходов на Д7, йе, гуд лак)
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: ну не у всех твои стандарты скорости :P но вообще он выдавал на чемпах 3хрунки <20к ходов И менее 2часов реалтайма
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: я руну брал вроде на 2.2к
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: потом правда лажать начал, но все равно теперь ему надо идеально играть с таким началом
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: кроме того, это же не хилер и не суммонер
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: хотя тоже комба сильная
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: а, стоп
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: ну как бы хилер..
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: он эли взял
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: угу, я ток ща увидел
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: просто старт хз зачем такой
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: только замедлять развитие
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: или может книжку хотел
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: возможно он не планировал эли
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: дд?
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: но нашел ее алтарь рано
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: а как еще хиляться
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: махлеб
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: стандарт для ддее
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: ну или так, да
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: интересно как скилы качает
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: растит инт
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: ну первые 3к ходов бессмысленны. в леер можно за 600 ходов прибежать
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: эт если как ты стартскаммить
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: не прибежал - gg, следующая игра...
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: ну да, надо пяток попыток
 20670 | Lair:6   | bmfx: не для всех это приемлимая тактика
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: на самом деле не так много надо
 20670 | Lair:6   | Sapher: это не сильно принципиально, 600 ходов для д8 1000 для д13

Anyway, you could also put a warning on Webtiles that the chat is logged.

Messages sent to players via console are also logged, so they should probably be subject to the same treatment.

Mines Malingerer

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Joined: Wednesday, 10th July 2013, 22:27

Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 07:05

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

[quote="MDvedh"][/quote]
Was that abuse? I am a stupid bitch and not an English native speaker, please someone let me know in straight way.
(edit:I asked it because I posted that log some days ago without permission of the player)
Last edited by sizz on Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 07:41, edited 3 times in total.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 07:08

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

Nope, that wasn't (except some words like "fuck", haha).
I mean it is funny to know some very good players (and I assume 4thArraOfDagon is good player) can do stupid mistakes.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 09:15

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

duvessa wrote:Messages sent to players via console are also logged, so they should probably be subject to the same treatment.


Or, alternatively, no one should be subject to it. It's led to creepy things in the past.

e: Honestly, "one group of people is subject to a shitty thing so EVERYONE should be subject to the shitty thing" is crazy backwards logic that speaks to a deep lack of empathy.
take it easy

Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 12:06

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

MDvedh wrote:Reading something like
  Code:
16035 | Elf:1    | killgu: why didn't he pick up the shoal rune?
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: omg
 16087 | Elf:1    | Yermak: lol
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: WTF
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: can you add message
 16087 | Elf:1    | killgu: what message
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: Do you really want to leave this level leaving the rune?
 16087 | Elf:1    | killgu: no
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: fuck
 16087 | Elf:1    | 4tharraofdagon: this

is always fun!


ohmygosh if this offensive then please avoid mine then. I am way over the top in my comments because it makes the game more fun for me.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 14:00

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

I've seen examples of the logs being used weirdly

And I've seen examples of the game's spectating chat being used weirdly. It's primary purpose is for discussing someone's game, not for sharing private information.
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Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 16:40

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

Arrhythmia wrote:
duvessa wrote:Messages sent to players via console are also logged, so they should probably be subject to the same treatment.


Or, alternatively, no one should be subject to it. It's led to creepy things in the past.

e: Honestly, "one group of people is subject to a shitty thing so EVERYONE should be subject to the shitty thing" is crazy backwards logic that speaks to a deep lack of empathy.
Uh, what? I'm saying that console messages are currently logged the same way Webtiles chat is, so if a change is made to Webtiles chat logging - such as removing it - then it should also apply to console messages. Unless "any sort of change to logging whatsoever" is a "shitty thing" to you.
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Barkeep

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Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 17:25

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

pubby wrote:
I've seen examples of the logs being used weirdly

And I've seen examples of the game's spectating chat being used weirdly. It's primary purpose is for discussing someone's game, not for sharing private information.

You can't really stamp out people wanting to socialize, even in silly tileschat. The only way to prevent it would be to remove chatting altogether, and I find tileschat to be useful, personally. I would hope that abusing tileschat would lead to a ban; maybe server administrators could have private logs for evidence in those cases, if you think that people are really doing weird things with the chat.

duvessa wrote:I'm saying that console messages are currently logged the same way Webtiles chat is, so if a change is made to Webtiles chat logging - such as removing it - then it should also apply to console messages.

For what it's worth, I think it'd be nice to preserve messages, which are almost always crawl-centric, while removing tileschat logging, which is not exactly always germane to the game being played. Extending the ability to "message" players in tiles, and thus get it into the log, might be cool. But if the only option is logging everything or logging nothing, I'd prefer the latter.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 22nd December 2013, 20:02

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

duvessa wrote:Uh, what? I'm saying that console messages are currently logged the same way Webtiles chat is, so if a change is made to Webtiles chat logging - such as removing it - then it should also apply to console messages. Unless "any sort of change to logging whatsoever" is a "shitty thing" to you.


I apologize. When you wrote "they should get the same treatment" I parsed it as "webtiles should be logged like console chat is", rather than "console chat should be removed with webtiles." Mea culpa.
take it easy

Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 23rd December 2013, 15:04

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

Do you have any actual examples of this being abused? I agree it isn't always useful, but it sometimes is and it doesn't seem like it hurts much to keep it around. Also "I've seen examples of the logs being used weirdly, and there are kids playing this game" is a strange argument for you to make, it seems to me like that is a good argument for keeping the logging. That way if anyone was too creepy there is a record if it needs to be reported to the authorities. That is, unless your argument is "sometimes people say creepy things to kids, we should stop logging this so they can't be called out on it".
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 23rd December 2013, 19:24

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

johlstei wrote:Do you have any actual examples of this being abused? I agree it isn't always useful, but it sometimes is and it doesn't seem like it hurts much to keep it around. Also "I've seen examples of the logs being used weirdly, and there are kids playing this game" is a strange argument for you to make, it seems to me like that is a good argument for keeping the logging. That way if anyone was too creepy there is a record if it needs to be reported to the authorities. That is, unless your argument is "sometimes people say creepy things to kids, we should stop logging this so they can't be called out on it".


Yes, there are examples of the logging feature being abused. For the sake of diplomacy though, I am not going to post it.

As for your argument that it should be saved, why should the log remain public? If it's ever an issue, Amethyst and the other webtiles administrators are perfectly capable of contacting the authorities themselves; it doesn't need to be available to anyone who can use Google to do this.
take it easy

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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 23rd December 2013, 19:32

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

johlstei wrote:Do you have any actual examples of this being abused? I agree it isn't always useful, but it sometimes is and it doesn't seem like it hurts much to keep it around. Also "I've seen examples of the logs being used weirdly, and there are kids playing this game" is a strange argument for you to make, it seems to me like that is a good argument for keeping the logging. That way if anyone was too creepy there is a record if it needs to be reported to the authorities. That is, unless your argument is "sometimes people say creepy things to kids, we should stop logging this so they can't be called out on it".

Wow, no, that is not what I mean at all. I don't particularly want to name names in a public forum, especially since the "creepy" stuff I've seen is only marginally weird and not grounds for getting the authorities involved (and the parties involved aren't complaining and it's not my place to do so).

My point is that kids a) don't always take their privacy seriously and b) public logs attached to easily identified user names could be used abusively. I am all for a server-based log so a record exists of any truly bad behavior; indeed, since so many of these youngsters self-identify, it's probably necessary to some extent.

Now, all that said, this is hardly pressing and I'm sure the worst thing that could happen is some chan-style doxing or cyberbullying. But I don't think the logs are really ever as useful as the morgue file information, especially for players who are heavy tileschat participants, and instead tend to be spam and dross and incidental social stuff.

If I'm wrong and people disagree, that's fine, but maybe don't accuse me of being some kind of molestation enabler. That's wild and uncalled for. (e: though it's possible I am overreacting and you weren't doing that, in which case whatever.)

Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 23rd December 2013, 19:48

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

I wasn't trying to accuse you of that, absolutely not! Sorry if I came off that way, I don't always consider the things implied by my wording when posting on the internet. I just worry because I see a tendency for groups, online and offline, to try and hide unsavory elements of their communities rather than expel such elements. I wasn't aware that there was separate server-based logging, if that's true and the admin is willing to act on them then I don't have a strong opinion on whether logs go into morgue files or not.

I thought that maybe you were going with this instinct(which is a human thing, I'm not faulting you personally), and I wanted to discourage that.

Why is the person harassing children in tileschat still allowed to post in tileschat? I don't think I like the lack of naming names here. Either way, they should be nowhere near the chat if they are known for predatory behavior. If someone is protecting them at the expense of vulnerable community members then that is a much bigger problem than tileschat going into log files.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 23rd December 2013, 20:03

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

johlstei wrote:Why is the person harassing children in tileschat still allowed to post in tileschat?


That's not what was happening, don't worry.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Monday, 23rd December 2013, 23:22

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

Probably just the usual stuff people eventually regret saying on public record. Of course people should not use public communications channels for things that don't belong in public. But oh well, kids will be kids. Also, stupid adults will be stupid adults. There definitely should be some kind of warning. Not really going to help, but at least then people can say "I told you so", which may be legally valuable to server admins.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 23rd December 2013, 23:26

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

Galefury wrote:Probably just the usual stuff people eventually regret saying on public record. Of course people should not use public communications channels for things that don't belong in public. But oh well, kids will be kids. Also, stupid adults will be stupid adults. There definitely should be some kind of warning. Not really going to help, but at least then people can say "I told you so", which may be legally valuable to server admins.


There's a big difference between someone writing down the contents of tileschat and the server attesting to the record.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 24th December 2013, 01:54

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

archaeo wrote:Is a work-around for this possible? It really clutters up your morgue files for no purpose, unless somebody wants to pop up saying it's a good idea.


I have disabled it by default. If people really want to log messages, they have the option to do so.

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archaeo, Arrhythmia

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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 21:35

Re: Remove Tileschat Logging

edit: I'd just like to commend everyone for the quality posting and excellent decision-making displayed in this thread
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