The Tavern

How about making Haste have a slow effect when it's over? The duration of that slow effect could be dependent on spell power (100% of hasted phase at spell power 0, 30% of hasted phase duration at spell power 200).
That would solve problem with Haste being a no-brainer, especially in lichform. Also spell power would become relevant.
I am not sure if that Slow should slow movement only or actions too, perhaps the former since it is level 6 spell.

Not a bad idea. Haste is basically a spell which you always learn at some point if you manage to find it. I hate spells like that. I also agree that spellpower should affect alot.

A lot of changes are being made that make the game harder. The Depths, swiftness nerf, great mace nerf, now we're talking about nerfing ammo amounts, and lowering the amount of EXP available in a 3 rune game...

I mean.... crawl might be too easy for some people, but for a lot of people, it's plenty hard as is. Is the goal of these changes to make the game harder, or is there something planned to push it back a little the other way?

I'd rather make contamination not removable via resting to prevent the necromutation infinite haste issue. Without necromut, I feel like the contamination's enough to stop people from just having haste up all the time.

Haste probably should be a dual school spell though. Charms/Hexes maybe? Because charms skill is already sort of a no brainer even without considering haste.

Well, nerfs to some overused things can, in time, be compensated with something else. I just find no-brainers stupid. Like what is the point of having a spell in game everyone wants? Swiftness change was pretty good, because now it has a real downside.

I still think Stone Skin is the most well designed buff in the game. With low spellpower it's nearly useless, but later it becomes ok and has additional synergy with statueform. That is how buffs should work.

Well, I think this Haste nerf will not affect new players, they become experienced enough if they survive to learning level 6 spell.

Yeah, but it's still a slight bump to the difficulty of the game, I'm just saying on top of all the other changes, it seems like crawl is just getting harder overall.
I'd still consider myself a newish player, but I've had 4 or 5 characters with the haste spell.

Having it slow just your movement after it wears off doesn't seem like such a bad idea, by the way. I'd just be wary of making a lot of little changes at once that make things harder.

The swiftness change prevents extended use without interfering with normal use. In fact, it's often better than before, albeit only slightly, and this is fine. Haste already has glow to prevent extended use. Making the cooldown period more severe won't solve the basic problem of the spell (being optimal always), because even if the slow period lasts as long as the fast period, you are at worst breaking even. You should already be retreating or mopping up by the time Haste expires anyway.

damiac wrote:I mean.... crawl might be too easy for some people, but for a lot of people, it's plenty hard as is. Is the goal of these changes to make the game harder, or is there something planned to push it back a little the other way?

no, nothing is planned, 0.8% overall winrate is apparently considered to be too high

Like what is the point of having a spell in game everyone wants?

Don't be silly. Everyone wants Phase Shift, everyone wants Fire Storm, everyone wants Death's Door. The only difference with Haste is the cost-benefit ratio.

Volteccer_Jack wrote:Don't be silly. Everyone wants Phase Shift, everyone wants Fire Storm, everyone wants Death's Door. The only difference with Haste is the cost-benefit ratio.

I meant wanting it with a realistic chance of really getting it castable. Firestorm for example isnt possible for many melee characters without extreme Pan/Zig scumming. I would love to see a different version from the normal game mode, but without endless floors by the way.

Well, Haste is the only spell that everyone not just wants but actually gets. See latest threads about Haste in CPA and 3-rune games. It is useful with any EV (unlike Phased Phift or Repel Missiles) and body armour (unlike FireStorm). Death's Door cannot be spammed, its downside is severe enough.
Yes, I realize Haste will remain useful but unfortunately proposal to remove haste got rejected.

What I personally think should be done with haste (And what should've been done with swiftness) is make their *effects* scale with spellpower (or perhaps just with skill), similarly to how Stoneskin's do.

If haste and swiftness at "barely castable" had "barely any effect" I think the problems with the cost/benefit ratio for exp invested would be solved completely. Right now the problem with a lot of charms is you only need to get them to "able to be cast" to get maximum benefit from them.

Can somebody explain to me why haste isn't a 9th level spell? I mean really 6th level? I don't think this would fix it since it scales with your character level, but how did it ever become a 6th level spell? It used to double your actions and was 6th level. Do the devs actually play the game?

damiac: That's the wrong tree you picked. Nobrainers need to be battled, no matter what. This is independent of difficulty. Also, it's easy to miss among all the "nerfs" that in other ways the game gets easier. For example, the new miscellaneous items provide many new tools (especially to characters who may have foregone serious casting). Different versions of Crawl have different levels of how hard or easy they are. If one version turns out to be noticeably harder than expected, then there will be ways to rectify that in the next version. Each nerf you mention has a particular, clearly visible reason behind it, and that reason was never "make it harder to win".

Sandman: I think it's a good idea, but I also think we can wait with this. Elliptic's swiftness change is good in so many ways: the spell is still tactically useful; it is no longer a strategic tool (spells shouldn't be that); it's very clear; less pain for those who care about score. Once the dust has settled, I am all for using this principle and apply it elsewhere, too. There is a minor thematic nuisance with what you suggest in that it makes Haste a little more berserk-like.

Siegurt: I don't see the contradiction: what you describe (spellpower has an impact on Swiftness, for example via duration) is clearly desirable. What elliptic did addressed something else (more urgent in a sense, because everyone felt they missed out something when not running around Swifted although they could). I see absolutely no reason not to combine the two. (By the way, I don't believe the "solved completely" clause of yours. Regardless, spellpower should have an effect.)

As-is charm duration is a strategic rather than tactical limit. Duration isn't a tactical effect unless the duration is say, 2-3 turns on the low end, and maybe 20 on the high end (Such that you'd be likely to run out before the end of the combat), What I'm talking about is instead of (or perhaps in addition to) duration being effected, the actual *benefit* being impacted.

For example Haste could give a 2% benefit to speed at low spell level, and it's current 40% benefit at max spell level. This would mean that unless you were a charm specialist, getting haste wouldn't really be all that great, and it would actually be of benefit to get your charms all the way to 27.

Swiftness duration is a big deal with new swiftness.

The swiftness spell was (and almost certainly still is) also much much more powerful than the haste spell, really. Wand of hasting exists, after all.

The simplest solution in my opinion would be just to raise the level. I'd say 7 or 8 with a gut feeling for 8 (9 would probably be overkill).

Siegurt's idea about the effect of spell power seems quite interesting, too. Perhaps these solutions should be combined. This would also make the role of staff of wizardry less significant.

Haste could be nerfed if it will need some time to kick in like tele, maybe 10% increased speed for first T turns, 20% for next T turns and so on with spellpower decreasing T.
But this probably wont make haste less no-brainer-ish.

What if we make some kind of haste-snipers at extended like crimso imps against Fe chars
for example we could make chei worshippers who casts slouch at you <=I know they would suck at killing dudes cuz they have such low movespeed but just talking about the basic concept

duvessa wrote:The swiftness spell was (and almost certainly still is) also much much more powerful than the haste spell, really. Wand of hasting exists, after all.

Also, weak poison is better than strong poison, and up is down. Non-sequiters exist, after all.

Sprucery wrote:The simplest solution in my opinion would be just to raise the level. I'd say 7 or 8 with a gut feeling for 8 (9 would probably be overkill).

Siegurt's idea about the effect of spell power seems quite interesting, too. Perhaps these solutions should be combined. This would also make the role of staff of wizardry less significant.

I doubt that there is any balancing of haste as a spell. The effect is simply too powerful for it to be balanced at any level. As a consumable it is still unbalanced, but interesting. As a spell it is unbalanced and uninteresting. Its effects scale so heavily with the power of the character casting it that the only level it could possibly be balanced at is 9th level. It gives you free actions to cast 9th level spells. Only 9th level spells should give you "free" 9th level spells.

headcrab0803 wrote:What if we make some kind of haste-snipers at extended like crimso imps against Fe chars
for example we could make chei worshippers who casts slouch at you <=I know they would suck at killing dudes cuz they have such low movespeed but just talking about the basic concept

Silver bullets are bad game design. The need for a silver bullet is a clear sign that something is broken. The silver bullet does not fix the broken thing. Better to just fix or remove what is broken.

MDvedh wrote:Haste could be nerfed if it will need some time to kick in like tele, maybe 10% increased speed for first T turns, 20% for next T turns and so on with spellpower decreasing T.
But this probably wont make haste less no-brainer-ish.

This is a very good idea, it would make players consider casting Haste in advance which is not a no-brainer unlike "Oops, it summoned Ice Fiend, I should cast Haste and run away".

Haste has been nerfed several times in the last years: the effect is reduced (was double action rate, also a nerf to non-spell haste); level was raised; contamination was increased.

Increasing the level furthermore is worse than giving spell power an effect, in my opinion. However, adding a negative effect after the positive is still better than that for balancing (again, both should be used, but for slightly different reasons): the current negative effect is relevant later, or not at all if you manage glow sensible. A negative effect on the battlefield matters much more -- this is why Berserk is the great effect it is (which has an additional negative by passing out).

damiac wrote:
duvessa wrote:The swiftness spell was (and almost certainly still is) also much much more powerful than the haste spell, really. Wand of hasting exists, after all.

Also, weak poison is better than strong poison, and up is down. Non-sequiters exist, after all.

Swiftness was (and almost certainly still is) a level 2 spell that every character capable of casting spells at all wants to learn unless they are already a spriggan or a Chei worshipper. With the old version, most characters also wanted to have it on at all times in several places. Then there are spells like repel missiles and Ozocubu's Armour that you want to have on at all times everywhere.
By contrast the only place you normally want to have haste on at all times is the orb run, and many characters capable of casting spells still don't learn Haste because e.g. they found the wand and enough recharging scrolls. So all this suggests to me that the haste spell is a much smaller balance problem than several other spells, especially swiftness, and since "haste is basically swiftness" seems to be a major premise of Sandman25's argument, that seems like it should be pretty relevant and not a non sequitur.

<offtopic>
I amnesiad Swiftness as soon as I realized how new version works.
So basically what I am suggesting here is a hidden removal of Haste.
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Swiftness is easier to get castable, and more useful as a utility spell, yes. It is much less powerful than haste, assuming powerful means "Having greater affect". Swiftness increases your movement speed. Haste increases your movement speed, casting speed, attacking speed, item use speed, etc. Thus it is more powerful.

If you meant more unbalanced, or something along those lines, maybe you have a point, but the recent changes really have drastically lowered the utility level of swiftness, since you can't just keep it on all the time.

Volteccer_Jack wrote:
damiac wrote:I mean.... crawl might be too easy for some people, but for a lot of people, it's plenty hard as is. Is the goal of these changes to make the game harder, or is there something planned to push it back a little the other way?

no, nothing is planned, 0.8% overall winrate is apparently considered to be too high

I don't get this viewpoint. Design decisions are based on what's fun, not on what's hard or easy. Crawl development actually made the game too easy for a quite a long time, which is why the XP change happened. The difficulty that Crawl is around now is it's "natural" difficulty, and the it's more accurate to say in the time just before the XP nerf Crawl was usually easy rather than that the XP change made it unusually hard. Things like the summoner nerf, elemental evokers, more species, and increasing the abyssal stair chance have all made the game easier.

Also, Nethack's server win rate is 0.579%, and I don't see a problem with matching that figure. The game's still fun if you lose. (In fact, judging by how experienced players cut down the game, it could be argued it's more fun to lose Crawl than to win Crawl.)

damiac wrote:Swiftness is easier to get castable, and more useful as a utility spell, yes. It is much less powerful than haste, assuming powerful means "Having greater affect". Swiftness increases your movement speed. Haste increases your movement speed, casting speed, attacking speed, item use speed, etc. Thus it is more powerful.

If you meant more unbalanced, or something along those lines, maybe you have a point, but the recent changes really have drastically lowered the utility level of swiftness, since you can't just keep it on all the time.

Duvessa & Co. aren't saying Swiftness is more powerful than Haste. They're saying it's more of a no-brainer, and Duvessa gave several examples of spells that also encourage being used 100% of the time after becoming castable, which is problematic for some players. Learning Haste is not a no-brainer, since it's a relatively large investment in skill levels to even make it castable; moderating the hunger costs is even more expensive. Meanwhile, as others have noted, haste wands and potions (and recharge scrolls) are common enough that it's a reasonable decision to stick to the items and put your skill points elsewhere.

Gaining the "fast" status is a no-brainer; how you accomplish that is not. And that excuses it from a lot of the balance criticisms I've seen. If being Fast is a no-brainer, so is having rF in Zot:5 or rPois in Snake. Why should that be a problem?

Old swiftness was more powerful (when you account for xp investment, other ways to get the effect) than haste spell.

Obviously the haste effect is stronger than the old swiftness effect but the haste spell is less powerful than the old swiftness spell.

This distinction is important.

I could see an argument that even new swiftness spell is possibly stronger than haste spell but probably I don't think that's true any more.

archaeo wrote:
damiac wrote:Swiftness is easier to get castable, and more useful as a utility spell, yes. It is much less powerful than haste, assuming powerful means "Having greater affect". Swiftness increases your movement speed. Haste increases your movement speed, casting speed, attacking speed, item use speed, etc. Thus it is more powerful.

If you meant more unbalanced, or something along those lines, maybe you have a point, but the recent changes really have drastically lowered the utility level of swiftness, since you can't just keep it on all the time.

Duvessa & Co. aren't saying Swiftness is more powerful than Haste.

duvessa wrote:The swiftness spell was (and almost certainly still is) also much much more powerful than the haste spell, really...

I think you are mistaken...

more Investment taken to get something does not make it less powerful. That's absurd. So by that logic, level 9 conjurations are much less powerful than level 1 conjurations, because anyone can get level 1 conjurations, but it takes a significant investment to get level 9 conjurations. Nevermind that I can clear zot5 easily by spamming firestorm, and magic missile would do 0 damage to everything there.

I think the word you're looking for is accessibility, not power. Perhaps swiftness was (and maybe still is) too accessible for its power level. Haste is less accessible than swiftness (but not as much less as it first appears, since haste is only 1 school.) Being accessible makes swiftness more of a no-brainer. So the swiftness nerf makes sense, but certainly NOT because swiftness is more powerful than haste.

I'd like to see haste changed in a more meaningful way than a slow effect at end. That becomes very similar to berserk. I'd rather see a per-aut MP drain while haste is up, with haste being de-activateable through an ability, and it would automatically end when out of MP. Does that make haste too crappy for spellcaster types, and too good for fighter types with high invo/evo skills?

I'd still keep the contamination as is, along with the new MP drain.

A hp drain would be a better balancing effect. It effects non-casters and caster alike.

damiac wrote:by that logic, level 9 conjurations are much less powerful than level 1 conjurations

Well, a lot of experienced players do consider level 9 conjurations to be not worth the XP on most characters since you can win with level 6-7 ones just fine and have spare XP for better defenses.

I'd say non-casters do a little better on the HP version too.

That's just because a non-caster typically will have more HP than a caster, and more AC, making those HPs worth more, in a sense.
Also, a guy with a vampiric battleaxe wouldn't even notice the HP drain.

Still, those are minor points, and probably not as bad as with the MP drain. HP drain is harsh, but +50% effectiveness is a good boost, so maybe it's worth while.

FAKEDIT:

Sar wrote:
damiac wrote:by that logic, level 9 conjurations are much less powerful than level 1 conjurations

Well, a lot of experienced players do consider level 9 conjurations to be not worth the XP on most characters since you can win with level 6-7 ones just fine and have spare XP for better defenses.

Yes, that's true. In many situations they may not be worth the investment. But whether or not they are worth the investment, they are still more powerful.

damiac wrote:more Investment taken to get something does not make it less powerful. That's absurd.

You're using an incredibly narrow definition of "power" that is utterly useless. You can't just compare two cars' horsepower if one weighs twice as much as the other; you need to look at the power-to-weight ratio. A Magic Dart that costs 1 mp is much more powerful than one that costs 9 mp (9 times as powerful in fact). The XP investment is just another cost like mp.

So by that logic, level 9 conjurations are much less powerful than level 1 conjurations, because anyone can get level 1 conjurations, but it takes a significant investment to get level 9 conjurations. Nevermind that I can clear zot5 easily by spamming firestorm, and magic missile would do 0 damage to everything there.

While this is an absurd strawman argument, it's true that level 9 spells are bad. Spells like Iron Shot and Poisonous Cloud are more powerful than Fire Storm due to having dramatically lower costs, while still being able to "clear zot5 easily".

Not strawman, reductio ad absurdum.

Which is a valid debate tactic. I take your (illogical) statement about how power works, and use its logic in a situation that demonstrates its falseness.

Horsepower in cars is horsepower regardless of how much the car weighs. Of course, who the hell cares about horsepower, you care about speed (or probably acceleration, but let's not make this overly complicated) in a car.
And if I can buy a car for $200 that can go 50MPH, and another that costs $200,000 that goes 51MPH, the second one is faster. It's a terrible and inefficient deal, but it is faster.

When one spell does 100 damage, and another does 90, the 100 damage spell is more powerful. Here i'm defining power as a sane person would. I guess if your definition of power is "efficiency" than you'll come up with different results, but I prefer to use the real definitions of words. The "Power" of a spell whose only function is to do damage is directly measured by the damage it does.

So no, firestorm is more powerful than iron shot, and it's more powerful than magic missile. It is, however, less efficient, and very possibly a bad choice to get.

My definition of power is actually useful. If a new player said "I have a dangerous monster in LOS I need dead fast. I have magic dart and LCS castable. Which spell is more powerful? I'd say "LCS is more powerful" and he'd know I meant it does more damage, because we're both sane people.

Your definition of power would have him casting magic dart, and when he came back complaining that it didn't do any damage, you can explain to him how power means "not power".

Ugh, can we just lock this thread down before the descriptivist vs. prescriptivist argument on "power" can really get going?

Haste: The Spell is not problematic as long as Haste: The Wand and Haste: The Potion are so widely available, in my opinion. But then again, I think Haste isn't overpowered and belongs in the game more or less as-is, so what do I know.

damiac wrote:A lot of changes are being made that make the game harder. The Depths, swiftness nerf, great mace nerf, now we're talking about nerfing ammo amounts, and lowering the amount of EXP available in a 3 rune game...

I mean.... crawl might be too easy for some people, but for a lot of people, it's plenty hard as is. Is the goal of these changes to make the game harder, or is there something planned to push it back a little the other way?

This isn't a change that affects the difficulty of all parts of the game though, it is a change that affects a certain part of the game (the part where you have haste) that is virtually unlosable in its current state. If you lose the game while having a large supply of haste it is almost certainly due to a tactical mistake on your part or because you are pushing too far into parts of the game where your character shouldn't be yet (either as a mistake or while speedrunning) at its current XL.
So sure, while increasing the difficulty of early game or something might be too harsh, you can't just look at this and say that the game becomes harder when the change only affects a part of the game that is far too easy. But when it comes to the actual change proposed:

The swiftness change prevents extended use without interfering with normal use. In fact, it's often better than before, albeit only slightly, and this is fine. Haste already has glow to prevent extended use. Making the cooldown period more severe won't solve the basic problem of the spell (being optimal always), because even if the slow period lasts as long as the fast period, you are at worst breaking even. You should already be retreating or mopping up by the time Haste expires anyway.

This is spot on. If you think a Haste nerf is desirable (I think it is) you need to change how it works while you are doing your fighting or running away, not how long you have to press 5 after you are in a safe area. The simple solution of reducing the speed boost seems fine to me.

Um, I pretty frequently find potions of speed before lair...

damiac wrote:
My definition of power is actually useful. If a new player said "I have a dangerous monster in LOS I need dead fast. I have magic dart and LCS castable. Which spell is more powerful? I'd say "LCS is more powerful" and he'd know I meant it does more damage, because we're both sane people.

Your definition of power would have him casting magic dart, and when he came back complaining that it didn't do any damage, you can explain to him how power means "not power".

This is pretty amusing and all, but I'd like to do a translation if no one minds:

The swiftness spell has more power than the haste spell because when you have a wand of hasting or ample speed potions, the haste spell PERFORMS NO WORK.

If you want Crawl more difficult, just double the mob spawn rate on the Orb run.

Regarding Haste, just make it not work on -tele floors. This would be an instant fix.

Just like -cTele fixes cblink cleanly and elegantly.

squire wrote:a certain part of the game (the part where you have haste) that is virtually unlosable in its current state.

I am skeptical about this claim. I think that this type of comment should be backed up with numbers. Are there any stats on survivability in the late game?

I'd be okay with a haste nerf if torment is removed.

Well this has quickly turned into comparing haste with swiftness. I don't get why shuch a comparison is needed in the first place, haste can be perfectly well be viewed on its own.
I totally agree with Sandmans original post that haste would deserve the "swiftness treatment".
Furthermore I think haste should be altered to affect actions only.

This is not the only thread where many have stated that haste is extremely desisable spell. You can allways look the formacid thread with "nooo, change formacids to have -tele instead of stasis because I want haste, boohoo" posts.

And in my games there is no denying that once I obtain enough uses for haste (may it be with potions, wand or the spell), the game gets 200% easier. This could be just because of my playing style, but it's enough for me to think haste alteration is in order.

Zammy wrote:Well this has quickly turned into comparing haste with swiftness. I don't get why shuch a comparison is needed in the first place, haste can be perfectly well be viewed on its own.
I totally agree with Sandmans original post that haste would deserve the "swiftness treatment".
Furthermore I think haste should be altered to affect actions only.

This is not the only thread where many have stated that haste is extremely desisable spell. You can allways look the formacid thread with "nooo, change formacids to have -tele instead of stasis because I want haste, boohoo" posts.

And in my games there is no denying that once I obtain enough uses for haste (may it be with potions, wand or the spell), the game gets 200% easier. This could be just because of my playing style, but it's enough for me to think haste alteration is in order.

The game gets easier when you choose minotaur as a race, too. Or berserker as a class.

MrPlanck wrote:The game gets easier when you choose minotaur as a race, too. Or berserker as a class.

This is why there are no level 6 spells "Temporary become minotaur"/"Temporary join Trog".
Transmutations don't have anything like that.

I find it rather disrespectful and obnoxious that you take the possibility of replacing Fo stasis by -Tele an experienced player brought up and for which he gave good arguments and then twist it into this nonsense because you somehow feel like people won't get how good haste is without being just that much of a jerk.

Sandman25 wrote:
MrPlanck wrote:The game gets easier when you choose minotaur as a race, too. Or berserker as a class.

This is why there are no level 6 spells "Temporary become minotaur"/"Temporary join Trog".
Transmutations don't have anything like that.

Sorry, but that seems silly. The point is, if you generally play the best race/class combos then yes, you will view some spells and effects as being overpowered because your foundation is strong to begin with. As soon as you try weaker combos then something like haste does not seem in the least overpowered. At least, to me.

If haste were higher level and required two schools, perhaps it would help. You won't see many minotaur berserkers in crystal plate going after it. Edit- on second thought nevermind,this doesn't address potions and wands.

dck wrote:I find it rather disrespectful and obnoxious that you take the possibility of replacing Fo stasis by -Tele an experienced player brought up and for which he gave good arguments and then twist it into this nonsense because you somehow feel like people won't get how good haste is without being just that much of a jerk.

You are obviously referring to my post.
I really didn't target any single post in formacid thread. There are rather many posts there complaining not to be able to haste.
And it was just used as an example on how haste keeps popping up as must-have spell in many occasions.
If I have offended someone, then I apologise since it was not my purpose.

MrPlanck wrote:Sorry, but that seems silly. The point is, if you generally play the best race/class combos then yes, you will view some spells and effects as being overpowered because your foundation is strong to begin with. As soon as you try weaker combos then something like haste does not seem in the least overpowered. At least, to me.

If haste were higher level and required two schools, perhaps it would help. You won't see many minotaur berserkers in crystal plate going after it. Edit- on second thought nevermind,this doesn't address potions and wands.

This is very true as I pointed out earlier. the problem is if you want a balanced game you need to balance things based on when they are used optimally not when they are misused. When you do that haste as a spell really can not be balanced. It simply scales too heavily with the characters power. Some powers like healing and divinations ruin the game when they are reusable abilities. Haste is one of those powers.

divinations ruin the game when they are reusable abilities

Divinations removal didn't have much to do with power level; surely no one actually considered e.g. "detect secret doors" too powerful.

The problem with divinations (and Alter Self!) is they were non-combat spells.

crate wrote:
divinations ruin the game when they are reusable abilities

Divinations removal didn't have much to do with power level; surely no one actually considered e.g. "detect secret doors" too powerful.

The problem with divinations (and Alter Self!) is they were non-combat spells.

Detect items and detect monsters are too powerful as spells IMHO.

The Tavern

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