Make Haste similar to new Swiftness

[reaver]

I wrote up a patch which implements my personal favorite solution:
This patch is an 5. It doesn't give you a 100% reliable speed boost (It uses rand_round for division, which gives fluctuating results, averaging towards a smooth curve as duration decreases) meaning you can't use "math knowledge" to try to use the bleeding low end of this spell to kite your opponents, as the exact AUT cost for a given action will be slightly randomized.

This does not stop kiting. It doesn't matter how much faster you are than the monster - just that you're faster than them at all. If you're faster than the monster, you can just run until a you're two tiles from the monster and then hit them your ranged attack. The "running away" bit can take 10-15 turns if you're only slightly faster or 4-5 w/ current Haste or so, but as longer as you're faster it will happen eventually.

4. The spell is better when you first cast it, the longer you use it the more it decreases in effectiveness.

Please don't do this. No comment about the rest.

I'm not the one who decides if it gets done (I think it's a good idea, but you obviously disagree, ultimately the devs decide if it goes in or not) Would you care to say why you think this is a bad idea?

With the patch, the best thing to do is tediously monitor how much time you have left Fast to make sure you can use the effect to it's full advantage, which is an unsustainably awful amount of bookkeeping for the player.

[I could do some refactoring] ... but doing so isn't as quick and dirty (and local) as mucking around with a single spell or effect, so I opted to go this route, which has a somewhat unfamiliar mechanism, but has most of the same effects as my original idea, and was easier to implement.

Why not just use the user's Charms skill as you would have used their spellpower? You could also use a more complicated formula to replicate spellpower if you wanted.

[Siegurt]

This does not stop kiting. It doesn't matter how much faster you are than the monster - just that you're faster than them at all. If you're faster than the monster, you can just run until a you're two tiles from the monster and then hit them your ranged attack. The "running away" bit can take 10-15 turns if you're only slightly faster or 4-5 w/ current Haste or so, but as longer as you're faster it will happen eventually.

It's not intended to stop kiting, what I mention here is that it's no longer useful to try to do the math of the "Well, the ogre swings at 1.2 turns, and I'm moving at .6 turns, but my attacks are at .3 turns, so if I swing on every X turn I'll be safe from attacks" because it's not wholly deterministic when you'll get what sort of speed boost.

With the patch, the best thing to do is tediously monitor how much time you have left Fast to make sure you can use the effect to it's full advantage, which is an unsustainably awful amount of bookkeeping for the player.

How could you tediously monitor anything? Duration is randomized and you have no way of knowing how long you have left in the duration precisely, or even how long before you lose another pip of speed, since it's random and fluctuates and is based on a number you never knew in the first place, What is it you thin you're going to unsustanably keep track of?

[I could do some refactoring] ... but doing so isn't as quick and dirty (and local) as mucking around with a single spell or effect, so I opted to go this route, which has a somewhat unfamiliar mechanism, but has most of the same effects as my original idea, and was easier to implement.

Why not just use the user's Charms skill as you would have used their spellpower? You could also use a more complicated formula to replicate spellpower if you wanted.

Because with haste there's no way to tell where the effect came from, I have no way of knowing if I should use charms or evocation, or some set power for a potion. I could just make it 100% charms-driven, but that seems pretty silly if the effect came from a wand or potion. It's about as much work to separate the three as it is to do the refactoring (Well maybe *slightly* less work, but also more ugly and hacky code)

[Sandman25]

After reading comments for that mantis ticket I suspect that the patch won't be accepted
The reason is simple - monsters are balanced based on Haste effect. Expecting that everyone uses the spell is a clear indication of something wrong with the spell. You can use Polearms or Long Swords or Crossbows or Fire Storm or Mass Confusion but you must use Haste (according to devs) no matter what. I apologize in advance but this is plain stupid.

[archaeo]

After reading comments for that mantis ticket I suspect that the patch won't be accepted
The reason is simple - monsters are balanced based on Haste effect. Expecting that everyone uses the spell is a clear indication of something wrong with the spell. You can use Polearms or Long Swords or Crossbows or Fire Storm or Mass Confusion but you must use Haste (according to devs) no matter what. I apologize in advance but this is plain stupid.

Where do you see developers saying that? There seems to be pretty widespread agreement that Haste is problematic, there just hasn't been a proposal that strikes anyone's fancy and removing it altogether would be a lot of work for relatively little gain. Which is what cooler heads have been saying all thread. If you really want changes, you're not making them get coded any faster by calling people dumb.

[crate]

There seems to be pretty widespread agreement that Haste is problematic

Well for one name, elliptic, who is both a dev and one of the absolute best crawl players, thinks that haste spell is not too powerful. (I have not particularly asked him whether it has design problems, but I suspect he thinks it's fine.) Of course he does not read tavern, so to get his opinion you would have to ask in ##crawl or ##crawl-dev.

If you want some more argument in a different way:
Of my last 8 non-trog non-chei wins (so excluding the gods where you obviously don't want to learn the spell), only 3 have learned haste spell. In (almost? I can't remember if there was actually a game there where I didn't find haste spell, but I don't think so) all of those cases it was simply because I decided that learning haste was not worth the xp.

[Kate]

After reading comments for that mantis ticket I suspect that the patch won't be accepted
The reason is simple - monsters are balanced based on Haste effect. Expecting that everyone uses the spell is a clear indication of something wrong with the spell. You can use Polearms or Long Swords or Crossbows or Fire Storm or Mass Confusion but you must use Haste (according to devs) no matter what. I apologize in advance but this is plain stupid.

I suggest re-reading the actual comment, then maybe reading the wiki page that is linked to in the comment, then perhaps stopping being totally clueless or stopping deliberately misrepresenting other people's comments, since I can't tell which one is actually the case.

[Sandman25]

After reading comments for that mantis ticket I suspect that the patch won't be accepted
The reason is simple - monsters are balanced based on Haste effect. Expecting that everyone uses the spell is a clear indication of something wrong with the spell. You can use Polearms or Long Swords or Crossbows or Fire Storm or Mass Confusion but you must use Haste (according to devs) no matter what. I apologize in advance but this is plain stupid.

I suggest re-reading the actual comment, then maybe reading the wiki page that is linked to in the comment, then perhaps stopping being totally clueless or stopping deliberately misrepresenting other people's comments, since I can't tell which one is actually the case.

I actually read that link.

I think it's probably still a bad idea for the reasons mentioned on that page.

This has been extensively discussed before, on IRC, and the consensus was against power-dependant effects
[skipped - Sandman25]
you can't really rebalance monster speeds in a varied rate, using a fixed nerf would make those ancient liches/greater demons far lesser threats later on than when they appear for the first time

[archaeo]

There seems to be pretty widespread agreement that Haste is problematic

Well for one name, elliptic, who is both a dev and one of the absolute best crawl players, thinks that haste spell is not too powerful. (I have not particularly asked him whether it has design problems, but I suspect he thinks it's fine.) Of course he does not read tavern, so to get his opinion you would have to ask in ##crawl or ##crawl-dev.

And what a good idea that seems. I'm inclined to agree with you and elliptic, in any case; the echo chamber can make a given opinion seem more or less prevalent, and if there isn't "pretty widespread agreement that Haste is problematic," I'm not going to complain.

(e: I was referring to "he does not read tavern" for the "good idea," for what that's worth, and I'm only being snarky.)

[Kate]

more stuff

Maybe just stop posting in GDD? Like, there are a lot of bad posts here but yours are about as worthless as it gets since not only are they completely irrelevant to the actual discussion of whether a change is needed and what that change should be if so, they continue to deliberately misrepresent what other people have said which is a pretty shitty thing to do in a discussion generally.

[Wahaha]

Of my last 8 non-trog non-chei wins (so excluding the gods where you obviously don't want to learn the spell), only 3 have learned haste spell. In (almost? I can't remember if there was actually a game there where I didn't find haste spell, but I don't think so) all of those cases it was simply because I decided that learning haste was not worth the xp.

To add more data, I counted my last 30 wins excluding Trog, Chei and Fo. They all had access to the haste spell. 14 out of 30 learned haste. Excluding characters with extended exp who learned haste, it's 11 out of 30. I skipped over 3 characters who weren't Be and picked Trog, which is another minor point against the haste spell.

[dck]

Out of curiosity I went and checked my last 15 wins (none were fo, chei or trog) and:

/haste - 7
spell - 4
/haste+spell - 3 (MuCK, DECK, HUCK)
none - 1 (TeCK)

All of these but TeCK had access to the haste spell, too.
Personally I don't find haste to be a problematic or too strong spell.

[headcrab0803]

Imo make haste more spell power dependant like stoneskin so its almost useless at *~**

[1010011010]

According to my 0.13 tournament data:
out of the 354 non Trog/Chei wins, 221 of them knew haste by the end of it.

only Apportation, Repel Missiles and Blink where more popular (including Chei)

[Hirsch I]

and considering the difference of investment from a level 1 or 2 spell and a level 6 spell, that is really something. everyone goes out of their way to get haste.

[Sandman25]

Yes, there is little point in learning Haste when you have a wand of Hasting and several scrolls of recharge so relevant statistics should include only games without that wand generated: how often do you go for Haste if there are no wands of Hasting? I suspect the answer is "too often". Also some players forget that the suggestion was intended to affect wand of Hasting too.

[WalkerBoh]

For 3-rune games I almost never bother with haste. Too much investment for something I already have plenty of consumables for.

For extended games, there is enough extra exp available to make it worth it. But in extended, it really isn't that overpowered. Instead of all of these complicated fixes, I'd be in favor of making it level 7 and otherwise leaving it alone.

[duvessa]

Imo make haste more spell power dependant like stoneskin so its almost useless at *~**

Spell power is almost useless for Stoneskin. It only affects the duration. The AC bonus is determined by earth magic skill, and is completely independent of power.

It's also pretty hard to cast a level 6 spell without already having decent power for it. The spell power component of Apportation is noticeable since many characters can easily cast a level 1 spell with 0 translocations skill. Level 6 spells, not so much.

[1010011010]

Top used spells for 3 rune games, 0.13 tournament

  Code:

123   Repel Missiles
120   Apportation
116   Blink
104   Regeneration
92   Haste
90   Swiftness
75   Flight
44   Summon Butterflies
43   Control Teleport
33   Shroud of Golubria
31   Phase Shift
26   Silence
23   Spectral Weapon
23   Cure Poison
22   Ozocubu's Armour
20   Infusion
18   Stoneskin
18   Animate Skeleton
17   Sublimation of Blood
16   Deflect Missiles
16   Animate Dead
16   Ensorcelled Hibernat
15   Orb of Destruction
14   Controlled Blink
13   Dispel Undead
13   Confuse
12   Recall
12   Invisibility
10   Fireball
10   Portal Projectile
10   Passwall
9   Abjuration
9   Freezing Cloud
9   Summon Small Mammal
8   Dig
8   Confusing Touch
8   Disjunction
7   Bolt of Fire
7   Song of Slaying
7   Vampiric Draining
7   Blade Hands
7   Beastly Appendage
7   Corona
7   Mephitic Cloud
6   Fire Storm
6   Control Undead
6   Ring of Flames
6   Agony
6   Conjure Flame
6   Passage of Golubria
6   Ice Form
6   Call Imp
5   Delayed Fireball
5   Statue Form
5   Throw Icicle
5   Freezing Aura
5   Spider Form
4   Borgnjor's Revivific
4   Magic Dart
4   Sticky Flame
4   Simulacrum
4   Bolt of Cold
4   Enslavement
4   Shock
4   Poison Arrow
4   Leda's Liquefaction
3   Iron Shot
3   Airstrike
3   Iskenderun's Battles
3   Iskenderun's Mystic
3   Bolt of Magma
3   Fire Brand
3   Slow
3   Mass Confusion
2   Tornado
2   Freeze
2   Flame Tongue
2   Dragon Form
2   Darkness
2   Shadow Creatures
2   Corpse Rot
2   Poisonous Cloud
2   Sure Blade
2   Lightning Bolt
2   Discord
2   Sting
2   Sticks to Snakes
2   Throw Flame
2   Teleport Other
2   Ignite Poison
1   Lee's Rapid Deconstr
1   Death's Door
1   Ice Storm
1   Dazzling Spray
1   Summon Ice Beast
1   Pain
1   Chain Lightning
1   Dispersal
1   Stone Arrow
1   Condensation Shield
1   Ozocubu's Refrigerat
1   Lethal Infusion
1   Poison Weapon
1   Death Channel
1   Metabolic Englaciati
1   Summon Horrible Thin
1   Summon Ugly Thing
1   Warp Weapon
1   Polymorph
1   Alistair's Intoxicat
0   Necromutation
0   Lehudib's Crystal Sp
0   Shatter
0   Song of Shielding
0   Mass Abjuration
0   Sandblast
0   Summon Elemental
0   Haunt
0   Searing Ray
0   Cause Fear
0   Throw Frost
0   Petrify
0   Summon Hydra
0   Summon Demon
0   Static Discharge


Couldn't (too lazy) to do anything about wand generation

[Leafsnail]

Divinations removal didn't have much to do with power level; surely no one actually considered e.g. "detect secret doors" too powerful.

The problem with divinations (and Alter Self!) is they were non-combat spells.

The underlying issue with most divinations, alter self and selective amnesia was that they were spells with no tactical element. You could ignore the mana cost and cast them whenever you wanted. It's true that something being a non-combat spell causes this problem to happen, but it can also arise in combat spells too. Old swiftness suffers from a similar issue, for instance.

I'd say the haste spell is in a kindof similar position. You can't cast it constantly, but the benefits it brings are so great that there are very few battle situations where it isn't worth having it active. I don't think it's overpowered, considering that "invest a bunch of XP in charms in order to make a fairly plentiful resource infinite" isn't a no-brainer, but I do think that it doesn't really make sense as a spell considering that spells are meant to be used tactically rather than being basically perma-buffs.

I don't think the removal of the haste spell (while keeping both consumables) would really make a 15 rune win much harder. You'd have to either contend that the haste spell is a no-brainer (in which case it should be removed) or that it's crucial to some subset of characters (who?) if you wanted to claim that removing the haste spell would break the post-endgame.

4. archeo: note that is makes a difference what the source of the buffs are. Spells are unlimited which makes them very unsuited for some effects (see Divination removal). Consumables are better because they require more decisions (i.e. better risk judgement). That does not mean haste as a spell is hopeless because there's a strategic cost associated to it.

I think the two bolded sentences are at odds with each other. If the strategic cost of XP investment is enough to make an effect suited to being a spell then divinations (and Alter Self and Selective Amnesia) should have been able to stay, just at higher levels (and possibly with a success level threshold). I don't think this is the case - for something to be a good spell it needs to have some kind of tactical cost too, and Haste's tactical cost is virtually nothing because you get back the time you spend casting it many times over.

e: I've realized I might've misinterpreted what you mean by "strategic". If I have then you can disregard most of this response other than the part about the tactical cost being almost zero.

[MrPlanck]

Top used spells for 3 rune games, 0.13 tournament

  Code:

123   Repel Missiles
120   Apportation
116   Blink
104   Regeneration
92   Haste
90   Swiftness
75   Flight
44   Summon Butterflies
43   Control Teleport
33   Shroud of Golubria
31   Phase Shift
26   Silence
23   Spectral Weapon
23   Cure Poison
22   Ozocubu's Armour
20   Infusion
18   Stoneskin
18   Animate Skeleton
17   Sublimation of Blood
16   Deflect Missiles
16   Animate Dead
16   Ensorcelled Hibernat
15   Orb of Destruction
14   Controlled Blink
13   Dispel Undead
13   Confuse
12   Recall
12   Invisibility
10   Fireball
10   Portal Projectile
10   Passwall
9   Abjuration
9   Freezing Cloud
9   Summon Small Mammal
8   Dig
8   Confusing Touch
8   Disjunction
7   Bolt of Fire
7   Song of Slaying
7   Vampiric Draining
7   Blade Hands
7   Beastly Appendage
7   Corona
7   Mephitic Cloud
6   Fire Storm
6   Control Undead
6   Ring of Flames
6   Agony
6   Conjure Flame
6   Passage of Golubria
6   Ice Form
6   Call Imp
5   Delayed Fireball
5   Statue Form
5   Throw Icicle
5   Freezing Aura
5   Spider Form
4   Borgnjor's Revivific
4   Magic Dart
4   Sticky Flame
4   Simulacrum
4   Bolt of Cold
4   Enslavement
4   Shock
4   Poison Arrow
4   Leda's Liquefaction
3   Iron Shot
3   Airstrike
3   Iskenderun's Battles
3   Iskenderun's Mystic
3   Bolt of Magma
3   Fire Brand
3   Slow
3   Mass Confusion
2   Tornado
2   Freeze
2   Flame Tongue
2   Dragon Form
2   Darkness
2   Shadow Creatures
2   Corpse Rot
2   Poisonous Cloud
2   Sure Blade
2   Lightning Bolt
2   Discord
2   Sting
2   Sticks to Snakes
2   Throw Flame
2   Teleport Other
2   Ignite Poison
1   Lee's Rapid Deconstr
1   Death's Door
1   Ice Storm
1   Dazzling Spray
1   Summon Ice Beast
1   Pain
1   Chain Lightning
1   Dispersal
1   Stone Arrow
1   Condensation Shield
1   Ozocubu's Refrigerat
1   Lethal Infusion
1   Poison Weapon
1   Death Channel
1   Metabolic Englaciati
1   Summon Horrible Thin
1   Summon Ugly Thing
1   Warp Weapon
1   Polymorph
1   Alistair's Intoxicat
0   Necromutation
0   Lehudib's Crystal Sp
0   Shatter
0   Song of Shielding
0   Mass Abjuration
0   Sandblast
0   Summon Elemental
0   Haunt
0   Searing Ray
0   Cause Fear
0   Throw Frost
0   Petrify
0   Summon Hydra
0   Summon Demon
0   Static Discharge


Couldn't (too lazy) to do anything about wand generation

Very interesting. Thanks, Satan!

[Sandman25]

I added spell level to top rows of table for more clarity. Yes, Haste is a really special spell.

  Code:

2   123   Repel Missiles
1   120   Apportation
2   116   Blink
3   104   Regeneration
6   92   Haste
2   90   Swiftness
3   75   Flight
1   44   Summon Butterflies
4   43   Control Teleport
2   33   Shroud of Golubria
5   31   Phase Shift
5   26   Silence
3   23   Spectral Weapon
2   23   Cure Poison
3   22   Ozocubu's Armour
1   20   Infusion
2   18   Stoneskin
1   18   Animate Skeleton
2   17   Sublimation of Blood
6   16   Deflect Missiles
4   16   Animate Dead
2   16   Ensorcelled Hibernat
15   Orb of Destruction
14   Controlled Blink
13   Dispel Undead
13   Confuse
12   Recall
12   Invisibility
10   Fireball
10   Portal Projectile
10   Passwall
9   Abjuration
9   Freezing Cloud
9   Summon Small Mammal
8   Dig
8   Confusing Touch
8   Disjunction
7   Bolt of Fire
7   Song of Slaying
7   Vampiric Draining
7   Blade Hands
7   Beastly Appendage
7   Corona
7   Mephitic Cloud
6   Fire Storm
6   Control Undead
6   Ring of Flames
6   Agony
6   Conjure Flame
6   Passage of Golubria
6   Ice Form
6   Call Imp
5   Delayed Fireball
5   Statue Form
5   Throw Icicle
5   Freezing Aura
5   Spider Form
4   Borgnjor's Revivific
4   Magic Dart
4   Sticky Flame
4   Simulacrum
4   Bolt of Cold
4   Enslavement
4   Shock
4   Poison Arrow
4   Leda's Liquefaction
3   Iron Shot
3   Airstrike
3   Iskenderun's Battles
3   Iskenderun's Mystic
3   Bolt of Magma
3   Fire Brand
3   Slow
3   Mass Confusion
2   Tornado
2   Freeze
2   Flame Tongue
2   Dragon Form
2   Darkness
2   Shadow Creatures
2   Corpse Rot
2   Poisonous Cloud
2   Sure Blade
2   Lightning Bolt
2   Discord
2   Sting
2   Sticks to Snakes
2   Throw Flame
2   Teleport Other
2   Ignite Poison
1   Lee's Rapid Deconstr
1   Death's Door
1   Ice Storm
1   Dazzling Spray
1   Summon Ice Beast
1   Pain
1   Chain Lightning
1   Dispersal
1   Stone Arrow
1   Condensation Shield
1   Ozocubu's Refrigerat
1   Lethal Infusion
1   Poison Weapon
1   Death Channel
1   Metabolic Englaciati
1   Summon Horrible Thin
1   Summon Ugly Thing
1   Warp Weapon
1   Polymorph
1   Alistair's Intoxicat
0   Necromutation
0   Lehudib's Crystal Sp
0   Shatter
0   Song of Shielding
0   Mass Abjuration
0   Sandblast
0   Summon Elemental
0   Haunt
0   Searing Ray
0   Cause Fear
0   Throw Frost
0   Petrify
0   Summon Hydra
0   Summon Demon
0   Static Discharge


[Wahaha]

People sometimes learn spells without being able to cast them, you shouldn't count those.

[Brannock]

People sometimes learn spells without being able to cast them, you shouldn't count those.

Do you mean only 100% chance of miscast spells, or "unreasonably high chance of miscasting" or what?

[1010011010]

Top used spells with less than 20% failure rate, for 3 rune games, 0.13 tournament.

spell level - number of games it had appeared - spell name

  Code:

2   118   Repel Missiles
1   116   Apportation
2   113   Blink
3   98   Regeneration
6   86   Haste
2   85   Swiftness
3   70   Flight
1   43   Summon Butterflies
4   40   Control Teleport
2   31   Shroud of Golubria
5   27   Phase Shift
5   25   Silence
2   23   Cure Poison
3   22   Ozocubu's Armour
3   21   Spectral Weapon
1   19   Infusion
2   18   Stoneskin
1   18   Animate Skeleton
2   17   Sublimation of Blood
6   16   Deflect Missiles
4   15   Animate Dead
2   15   Ensorcelled Hibernat
7   15   Orb of Destruction
7   13   Controlled Blink
5   13   Dispel Undead
3   12   Confuse
3   12   Recall
6   11   Invisibility
5   10   Fireball
2   10   Portal Projectile
3   9   Abjuration
6   9   Freezing Cloud
3   8   Passwall
1   8   Summon Small Mammal
4   8   Dig
1   8   Confusing Touch
8   8   Disjunction
6   7   Bolt of Fire
3   7   Vampiric Draining
1   7   Beastly Appendage
3   7   Mephitic Cloud
2   6   Song of Slaying
5   6   Blade Hands
1   6   Corona
9   6   Fire Storm
4   6   Control Undead
7   6   Ring of Flames
5   6   Agony
3   6   Conjure Flame
4   6   Ice Form
2   6   Call Imp
4   5   Passage of Golubria
7   5   Delayed Fireball
6   5   Statue Form
4   5   Throw Icicle
2   5   Freezing Aura
3   5   Spider Form
7   4   Borgnjor's Revivific
4   4   Sticky Flame
6   4   Simulacrum
6   4   Bolt of Cold
4   4   Enslavement
1   4   Shock
6   4   Poison Arrow
4   4   Leda's Liquefaction
1   3   Magic Dart
6   3   Iron Shot
4   3   Airstrike
4   3   Iskenderun's Battles
5   3   Bolt of Magma
2   3   Fire Brand
2   3   Slow
4   2   Iskenderun's Mystic
6   2   Mass Confusion
9   2   Tornado
1   2   Freeze
1   2   Flame Tongue
7   2   Dragon Form
7   2   Darkness
5   2   Shadow Creatures
2   2   Corpse Rot
6   2   Poisonous Cloud
2   2   Sure Blade
5   2   Lightning Bolt
8   2   Discord
1   2   Sting
2   2   Throw Flame
3   2   Teleport Other
5   2   Ignite Poison
2   1   Sticks to Snakes
5   1   Lee's Rapid Deconstr
8   1   Death's Door
9   1   Ice Storm
3   1   Dazzling Spray
4   1   Summon Ice Beast
1   1   Pain
8   1   Chain Lightning
6   1   Dispersal
4   1   Condensation Shield
6   1   Ozocubu's Refrigerat
2   1   Lethal Infusion
3   1   Poison Weapon
6   1   Death Channel
6   1   Metabolic Englaciati
8   1   Summon Horrible Thin
6   1   Summon Ugly Thing
5   1   Warp Weapon
4   1   Polymorph
4   1   Alistair's Intoxicat
3   0   Stone Arrow
8   0   Necromutation
8   0   Lehudib's Crystal Sp
9   0   Shatter
4   0   Song of Shielding
6   0   Mass Abjuration
1   0   Sandblast
4   0   Summon Elemental
7   0   Haunt
2   0   Searing Ray
4   0   Cause Fear
2   0   Throw Frost
4   0   Petrify
7   0   Summon Hydra
5   0   Summon Demon
3   0   Static Discharge


[Hirsch I]

can't we just remove haste as a spell? there is lots of ways of hasting yourself, there is no need of it being unlimited.
of course, that would mean almost every aquirement would be for wands. maybe we could just remove the effect, until we come up with something more balanced, but I can see the issues with that.

[Leafsnail]

of course, that would mean almost every aquirement would be for wands.

This isn't really any different from the status quo. You still want a haste wand so you can avoid putting the XP into charms, even if you have a character who eventually intends to learn the spell. And of course everyone wants a Heal Wounds.

[Hirsch I]

this should probably be changed as well. reducing the power of those wands and making them more common is possibly a good way to do that, but that is OT.

[Tiktacy]

I personally think the posts in this thread are almost all completely useless. Haste scaling with power, haste having negative draw backs, removing haste, removing the spell haste, swiftness being better than haste, haste technically being better than swiftness, this thread is like the pure embodiment of why GDD has trouble getting places: We get too side tracked on things and try to argue our idea is better, rather than try to work off of each others ideas and create a usable suggestion for the dev team.

I think this thread should just be yuifed and we should try again but with better team work.

Also, marvin, just leave, please. I feel like I should expect better from a developer than to come into a thread for no purpose other than spite.

[mikee]

Just for the record, "experienced players" in the tavern, or almost anywhere really, contradict themselves regularly and imply absolutes just for the sake of disagreeing with people... In other words, experienced players don't give you advice because they want to help you, they just hate it when people do things differently.

This is even *in this thread*. What's the matter, were not enough people paying attention to you?

[Galefury]

Also, marvin, just leave, please. I feel like I should expect better from a developer than to come into a thread for no purpose other than spite.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't posting out of spite, and unlike a lot of other people he actually had something useful to say. There are nicer ways to say it, but sometimes people are just too pissed off to be nice.

[and into]

This does not stop kiting. It doesn't matter how much faster you are than the monster - just that you're faster than them at all. If you're faster than the monster, you can just run until a you're two tiles from the monster and then hit them your ranged attack. The "running away" bit can take 10-15 turns if you're only slightly faster or 4-5 w/ current Haste or so, but as longer as you're faster it will happen eventually.

It is true that the speed bump that puts you above average speed is disproportionately much more useful than any other increase in speed of the same amount. However, when you imply that even if "running away [took] 10 to 15 turns" that kiting would be a viable or useful strategy, I don't agree. Being only slightly faster is often good enough when you only want to escape, because all that entails is getting just one square of distance between you and your enemy at the right moment. But 10 to 15 turns per attack while kiting is not just tedious—it is also very much not a good way to keep your character alive, unless you've managed to lure the enemy you are kiting into the Temple first. During the whole time you are running around kiting, there are other things that want to kill you. Even if you are running through areas that you have explored, there is a pretty good chance something will pop up and block your path. So the amount that Haste increases your movement speed does matter when it comes to its potential for abusive and tedious levels of kiting (which is the only time that the kiting actually becomes a problem with game play—when it is too often the correct choice, and/or when doing it is highly useful but very tedious).

[Tiktacy]

Galefury: Marvin is being a prick and has added literally nothing to the thread, you must be either blind or a major suck-up if you actually think that.

Mikee: Nope, not enough people were paying attention to the main idea and were too focused on arguing, I was just making an attempt to prevent that(it obviously failed). I would say, your attempts at trying to diminish my words seems like more of an attempt at attention than anything I've said.

*deep breath* wow, being hollered at by two councellors at once, that must be a record.

[1010011010]

I disagree with your statement implying this thread has become off topic. It started by saying that haste needs a nerf, then the thread explored the attributes of haste which may give need for a nerf. Unless Sandman put a detailed accurate explanation to why a slowing effect (and a slowing effect in particular) would be a good addition to haste, then expect discussion to digress into boarder line off topic debate.

Anyway, now we're firmly off topic. so to try and reel it back in:

Haste, in order to be a no brainer, needs to be specialized to certain situations and/or builds, I don't think the slow effect dose much for it other than make it more like berserk.

[claws]

The fact that somebody would state that a thread won't get the attention of the devs due to lack of quality in the discourse, then mouth off at a dev for trying to regulate the levels of involved discourse, is a pretty sad but adequate demonstration of how the Tavern community is pretty bad at actually contributing to development for anything besides indirect bug reports or making the volatile, conflicting opinions of varied community echo chambers more obvious.

(Not that the other mediums and communities are much better, but they at least trend towards self-awareness.)

[Sandman25]

Unless Sandman put a detailed accurate explanation to why a slowing effect (and a slowing effect in particular) would be a good addition to haste, then expect discussion to digress into boarder line off topic debate.

I cannot provide accurate explanation about slowing effect, I was trying to nerf Haste (and potions/wands) by any means which would be accepted by devs. If I expected devs to accept Haste "post effect" which temporary cuts max HP to 50% for 10 turns, I would propose exactly that. That's just an example to clarify my intention. Swiftness and Haste look very similar to me and I actually was really surprised by reaction.

[Kate]

If calling people out for basing their arguments on deliberate misrepresentation of somebody else's words makes me spiteful and a prick then there's no hope for us all. Tiktacy can consider this a warning for making a bad thread even worse with personal insults I guess.

Merry Christmas!