New God: Dang, the Shadowed


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 17:55

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Am I the only one to have a problem with the shadow casting OOD, and blowing up both OODs directly in your face? I'm shocked not to see a single other complaint about it.

Sar

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 17:58

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

The place for such complaints is mantis, and patch is already there:

https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8030

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 19:22

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Still hoping someone add some sort of graphical indication (especially needed for melee) that Shadow Action triggered.... reading through walls of texts is not exciting.

Sar

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 19:33

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

As long as it isn't something seizure-inducing like "make the entire screen flash when shadow does something". No idea how to do that for melee, though, Crawl doesn't have melee attack animations (thankfully).

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 19:37

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Sar wrote:As long as it isn't something seizure-inducing like "make the entire screen flash when shadow does something". No idea how to do that for melee, though, Crawl doesn't have melee attack animations (thankfully).


What about making the Umbra flash a darker purple, much easier on the eyes and it's not the whole screen? I agree making the screen flash might be too much... but I think some god abilities need it (or some sort of animation) for ASCII... especially Chei's Slouch. That ability would be really badass with a turquoise flash.
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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 23:43

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

I, personally, don't want an animation playing on one third of all of my actions that hurt dudes. First, it would non-trivially, artificially extend a game that by most people's count is already too long. Second, I gain no useful information by knowing whether or not my shadow has mimicked me. If I rolled high on an attack and brought the stone giant to 50% HP, it is no different than if I rolled low and my shadow-mimic covered for me bringing him to 50% HP. If, say, every time the shadow mimicked me it wouldn't for X turns then it could potentially be useful, but considering it is (thankfully) stochastic, it would add nothing besides annoyance.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 00:13

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Arrhythmia wrote:I, personally, don't want an animation playing on one third of all of my actions that hurt dudes. First, it would non-trivially, artificially extend a game that by most people's count is already too long. Second, I gain no useful information by knowing whether or not my shadow has mimicked me. If I rolled high on an attack and brought the stone giant to 50% HP, it is no different than if I rolled low and my shadow-mimic covered for me bringing him to 50% HP. If, say, every time the shadow mimicked me it wouldn't for X turns then it could potentially be useful, but considering it is (thankfully) stochastic, it would add nothing besides annoyance.


I know everyone loves being contrarian here, but why on earth wouldnt you want to know that Shadow Action has triggered? I'd personally would like to know exactly how much damage and usefulness it's adding... it's not the same as simply rolling high on an attack.

It's obviously useful information that Shadow Action has triggered - otherwise it wouldn't be announced via text at the bottom of the screen... But reading through all that to gain the satisfaction that it has triggered is tedious. I like to know when passive abilities trigger so I can personally gauge how useful they are, and whats easier than treading through boring action text? Oh yeah, a small visual indicator.

I mean they bothered to have a "shadow" creature pop up on the right side of the screen for a split second, obviously that was for a reason.

I also dont see how adding a simple visual affect would "extend the game"...

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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 00:37

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

So you don't get any satisfaction from reading "Your shadow hits the stone giant with a demon blade!" and watching the giant lose a chunk of HPs and sometimes lose track of you, but if some sort of flash is added to it that only slows down autofight then it's all great.
There are people who are already asking for a setting that lets you make animations for spells and stuff go faster (and shadow mimicking spells repeats the spell animation) and you want to add yet another animation to the chain? What's the gain?
I mean I don't cast enough to hate animations and it was cool a recent game when I could see another shard of ice hitting the dudes and finishing them off, but I would never want to add a similar melee effect and in fact I would probably ask for a way to remove the extra animation if I used automagic.
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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 00:49

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

King_jelly wrote:I know everyone loves being contrarian here, but why on earth wouldnt you want to know that Shadow Action has triggered? I'd personally would like to know exactly how much damage and usefulness it's adding... it's not the same as simply rolling high on an attack.


Qualitatively, you're right, it's not the same. But quantitatively it is. I propose that "for all possible states of the game, the next action most likely to lead to my character who worships Dithmengos ascending with the orb of zot, i.e., the "optimal" move, is the same regardless of whether or not shadow mimic has brought about this state ." To prove me wrong, all you have to do is point out a single situation where shadow-mimic having triggered changes what the optimal move is! Can you do it?

It's obviously useful information that Shadow Action has triggered - otherwise it wouldn't be announced via text at the bottom of the screen...


Lots of text that appears at the bottom of the screen is useless! For example, when Harold dies, nothing of my play changes when he tells me that it was his last day before retirement.

I also dont see how adding a simple visual affect would "extend the game"...


Let's assume for a second that I was not actually Arrhythmia, but rather I was minmay. Now, minmay's last win (http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/minmay/morgue-minmay-20140131-201823.txt) had, roughly, 12K melee attacks. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that shadow mimic occurs roughly two in every five moves. Then, if shadow mimic's animation took just one TENTH of a second, it would have extended his game by more than eight minutes. Which, frankly, I can think of much better ways to spend than watching a screen flash a different shade of purple.
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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 01:42

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Wait, did some guy post his idea for a new god, and the devs actually decided to implement it in 14? Or is the op a dev?
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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 01:43

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

AzuredreamsXT wrote:Wait, did some guy post his idea for a new god, and the devs actually decided to implement it in 14? Or is the op a dev?


Yes and no, respectively. For future reference, anyone with an orange name is a dev.
Last edited by Arrhythmia on Saturday, 1st February 2014, 01:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 01:44

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Arrhythmia wrote:
AzuredreamsXT wrote:Wait, did some guy post his idea for a new god, and the devs actually decided to implement it in 14? Or is the op a dev?


Yes and no, respectively.


Wow, mind kind of blown

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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 01:54

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Animations don't really add anything to Crawl other than:
1) flavor (which is admittedly very simple since Crawl doesn't have very good graphics :P ), or
2) a visual indication that something important occurred that you might otherwise have missed.

For an example of #1, corruption is an already-mentioned example which provides a little extra flavor. For an example of #2, I might not notice slime creatures merging together unless there was a green flash each time.

I don't think adding an animation for shadow action adds much flavor to the game. Adding an animation to an activated ability makes more sense for flavor purposes to me. So maybe triggering Shadow Form is a better choice for animation.

As for #2, I don't think shadow action is important enough to necessitate an extra visual cue. As Arrhythmia pointed out, knowing whether shadow action triggered won't really ever change your actions, since it's mechanically similar to high dice rolls. And as already pointed out before, the animations add time to the game (especially annoying if your game is lagging, which I find animations exacerbate).

Hopefully that makes sense, King Jelly. I don't think anyone is really arguing for the sake of being contrarian; sometimes you just gotta admit when you're wrong. :)

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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 02:09

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

A bunch of posts had an accident, rip. Consider the cases for and against adding more visual feedback on Shadow Mimic thoroughly made.

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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 02:29

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

WalkerBoh wrote:Hopefully that makes sense, King Jelly. I don't think anyone is really arguing for the sake of being contrarian; sometimes you just gotta admit when you're wrong. :)


Sure, next time i'm actually wrong - I'll admit it. Hasn't happened yet though.

Yeah, shadow form would also be a good candidate for visuals.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 03:08

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

I have been playing a lot with Dith and I feel the double-attacks are quite powerful.

The prime issue I have is with the new (second?) altar. It looks too similar to Yred's in shape and color. Also, both look shaped like the Temple exit stairs.

If nothing else, I would at least change the purple/violet color on one of the altars to something markedly different, like dull orange or grey. I am not an artist.
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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 03:27

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

WalkerBoh wrote:Animations don't really add anything to Crawl other than:
1) flavor (which is admittedly very simple since Crawl doesn't have very good graphics :P ), or

I always find this kind of comment very odd.
Speaking as a pixel artist, Crawl has excellent graphics -- They are clear and communicative, crisp.. The occasional one is a bit visually weak, but overall (within the constraints of fixed-size tiles), Crawl approaches a commercial game with a good art director. This is a serious accomplishment.

The only roguelike it doesn't obviously beat out is Teleglitch. Certain more hi-def games like Dredmor, for example, have graphics that are simultaneously more polished and worse in the context of the actual game.

Game graphics are not simply 'art'. They are a type of industrial art, which means that it's appropriate to grade them on a scale of how well they perform their function, before anything else.
</rant>

EDIT: Of course, now I realize that you play console ;)

2) a visual indication that something important occurred that you might otherwise have missed.

For an example of #1, corruption is an already-mentioned example which provides a little extra flavor. For an example of #2, I might not notice slime creatures merging together unless there was a green flash each time.

I don't think adding an animation for shadow action adds much flavor to the game. Adding an animation to an activated ability makes more sense for flavor purposes to me. So maybe triggering Shadow Form is a better choice for animation.

For my current character, there does seem to be a visual cue, which is the second casting itself (for any 'animated' spell type eg. AoE or projectile).
I find this easy to pick up on, personally. It probably is less obvious for other types (melee, non-visualized attack/effect spells)

The prime issue I have is with the new (second?) altar. It looks too similar to Yred's in shape and color

Definitely agree.

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Post Sunday, 2nd February 2014, 01:01

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

It's easy to tell whoever plays ASCII crawl because they think they're better than everyone who plays Tiles ;)

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Post Sunday, 2nd February 2014, 05:26

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

EDIT: Of course, now I realize that you play console.

I was wondering why you were trying to defend letters and punctuation as art. :P
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Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 16:20

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

I've a DsGl in progress and I've found that Dithmengos doesn't specially regard the deaths of foes with fire weapons (like Nessos) or giant fireflies. I think it should.
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Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 17:48

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

I should point out that CSZO now has an experimental branch with dpeg's proposed partial XP for seeing monsters as a Dithite. Currently it's set to 1/3 XP, but that can be changed. It is listed as "dith changes" in webtiles, branch "halftone" in our git repository.

My immediate reaction is that gaining levels feels like it comes from out of the blue. I'm not sure how to fix that, though, without adding a (very spammy) message about gaining XP every time you see a monster. Perhaps adding an extra message, but only on level gain, would work.

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Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 19:18

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

neil wrote:I should point out that CSZO now has an experimental branch with dpeg's proposed partial XP for seeing monsters as a Dithite. Currently it's set to 1/3 XP, but that can be changed. It is listed as "dith changes" in webtiles, branch "halftone" in our git repository.

My immediate reaction is that gaining levels feels like it comes from out of the blue. I'm not sure how to fix that, though, without adding a (very spammy) message about gaining XP every time you see a monster. Perhaps adding an extra message, but only on level gain, would work.


Cool!

Perhaps one way around message spam is to only show message for XP gained above a certain amount (based on % toward next level)? You'd only occasionally get XP from seeing a dude. Plus this would give players (on average) a bit more instantaneous feedback about the relative strength of some new monster he just stumbled across.
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Post Monday, 3rd February 2014, 19:48

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

XuaXua wrote:The prime issue I have is with the new (second?) altar. It looks too similar to Yred's in shape and color. Also, both look shaped like the Temple exit stairs.

If nothing else, I would at least change the purple/violet color on one of the altars to something markedly different, like dull orange or grey. I am not an artist.

Everyone's welcome to submit alternate altar tiles, or altar-nates if you prefer.

It's purple because Dith talks in purple text (as does Yred).

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2014, 01:58

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

I just played a Ds^Dith that got fire aspect and hellfire. Using the Hellfire ability put me into penance without any warning -- I mean, I thought it probably would, but I was surprised that there wasn't any sort of prompting or interface that suggested it.

Also, it seems like Shadow Mimic does pretty bad damage with Unarmed Combat, FWIW.

Edit: demonic guardians don't anger Dith under any circumstances, even balrugs and sun demons.

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2014, 03:10

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

I thought I'd mention it here, too, but I think it's not right that Dith boosts spell damage output(and enchantments chance to affect) so much. Even Veh doesn't give you damage boost, being a god of destruction. ATM, taking dith seems to be more benefitial for a pure caster than any other god.
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Post Thursday, 6th February 2014, 11:57

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Amnesiac wrote:I thought I'd mention it here, too, but I think it's not right that Dith boosts spell damage(and enchantments chance to affect) output so much. Even Veh doesn't give you damage boost, being a god of destruction. ATM, taking dith seems to be more benefitial for a pure caster than any other god.

I personally hope that this kind of complain (which sounds legit, by the way) doesn't lead to any drastic/significant changes to Dith. Because this god is already quite fun. :)

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2014, 22:28

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

I'm fine with umbra and shadow form, but this shadow mimic is too strong, imo, and shadow step is a no-brainer when you want to quickly close on an enemy and it's probably too stong, too. It's also often an effective escape tool. Maybe it's cost at least needs to be higher.

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Post Tuesday, 11th February 2014, 19:52

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

I reached "uncannily stealthy" (the highest named range) on a Thirsty Vampire Enchanter of Dithmengos at level 9 with no stealth-related spell effects or enhancing equipment, just the umbra. This was with a Stealth skill of about 10. Seems strong. (Though I died anyway to a sleeping hydra).
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Post Tuesday, 11th February 2014, 19:59

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

I think umbra is quite fine in the set of the abilities he gives. What really is too strong now, as it seemed to me are spells and projectiles. Maybe it's also true for heavy melee weapons, but I don't often play those types. I imagine an ogre who is double "stabbing" with a GSC would be nice.

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Post Tuesday, 11th February 2014, 22:49

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Amnesiac wrote:I think umbra is quite fine in the set of the abilities he gives. What really is too strong now, as it seemed to me are spells and projectiles. Maybe it's also true for heavy melee weapons, but I don't often play those types. I imagine an ogre who is double "stabbing" with a GSC would be nice.


Recently playing a DeCj, I have to say that while damage output is boosted*, it's not very reliable even at high piety. Maybe this is a bigger deal for elementalists?

* except for OoD, which is nerfed to hell.

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Post Wednesday, 12th February 2014, 06:43

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Well, OoD is strong and has a maximum range anyway, but still, I don't think that it makes much sense for it to get another treatment than other spells.
Of course damage boost is not reliable, but it still is very big on average. Oh, and don't forget that you need to be at max piety to feel the maximum boost. And you wouldn't want to waste your piety for shadow form and step that much, anyway.
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Post Wednesday, 12th February 2014, 06:47

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

take it easy

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Post Wednesday, 12th February 2014, 06:49

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

What is? I'm not sure what shadow spells are, but are they that bad?

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Post Wednesday, 12th February 2014, 06:59

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

^ You completely missed the point, which is that when shadow mimicry fires, total damage from OoD is typically -0-. Not extra damage. Total damage is 0.
The commit linked by Arrythmia fixes this by making it so there are not two OoDs to collide.

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Post Wednesday, 12th February 2014, 07:10

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Oh. So is shadow OoD just a shadow shard? Is it that bad? Anyway, my point is not only about OoDs.
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Post Wednesday, 12th February 2014, 07:13

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Amnesiac wrote:Oh. So is shadow OoD just a shadow shard? Is it that bad? Anyway, my point is not only about OoDs.


I didn't test it very long or hard, but I don't think OoD triggers shadow mimic at all right now.
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Post Wednesday, 12th February 2014, 07:17

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Dith shadow mimic melee damage also got nerfed, btw. I guess the shadow-mimic-specific spells counts as a nerf for Conj mimicry, but I haven't recompiled yet.

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Post Wednesday, 12th February 2014, 07:34

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

I guess I'll have to see for myself. When will it be in trunk? Or is it already there?
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Post Wednesday, 12th February 2014, 07:35

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Amnesiac wrote:I guess I'll have to see for myself. When will it be in trunk? Or is it already there?


If it's not in at this very moment, which I'm almost certain it is, then it will be within 24 hours from now.
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Post Thursday, 13th February 2014, 05:13

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

I just played through Orc:4 with a VsWn of Dith at close to max piety, wielding a +6/+11 morning star with 12 skill, character level 15. I tried to keep track of the shadow mimic actions for the entire level, and after killing every single monster on the level (mostly orcs, orc priests, orc wizards, and orc warriors, with some centaurs mixed in), I believe shadow mimic actually hit a monster and dealt damage four times. In part that's because the weapon killed mundane orcs in a single hit most of the time, but when the shadow mimic did attack monsters, even mundane orcs, it missed almost every time.

Based on this sample, I believe that shadow mimic's effect on melee combat has been scaled down so far that it barely does anything whatsoever. It may have been too good before, but it seems weak to the point of uselessness now.
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Post Thursday, 13th February 2014, 05:20

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

Can someone rename this thread to "Dithmengos" or something?
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Post Thursday, 13th February 2014, 06:09

Re: New God: Seth, the Shadow King

XuaXua wrote:Can someone rename this thread to "Dithmengos" or something?


It's Dithmenos now!

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Post Thursday, 13th February 2014, 06:39

Re: New God: Dang, the Shadowed

best name
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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 03:46

Re: New God: Dang, the Shadowed

Dithmengos sounded like death mangos.
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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 21:35

Re: New God: Dang, the Shadowed

What?? "Dithmengos" is awesome! It has gravitas. "Dithmenos" sounds like a mumble.

Also, Dithmengos is an anagram of Dsomething, which is a neat bit of Secret History.
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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 21:36

Re: New God: Dang, the Shadowed

I woulda gone for "Dithmegnos" myself but it's not my bikeshed
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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 22:35

Re: New God: Dang, the Shadowed

One note I saw brought up on crawl-dev was that shadow mimic tends to end up like a phantom Ash skill boost or, as many other players have mentioned, a pseudo-haste effect. Maybe people could come up with a better alternative for this, especially if the shadow bolt and shadow shard abilities seem too tame?
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Post Saturday, 15th February 2014, 02:42

Re: New God: Dang, the Shadowed

Hey, I'm playing a VpEn and took up Dithmengos on D:3, I just cleared D:5 and still haven't seen a single star of piety, is this normal?
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Post Saturday, 15th February 2014, 03:08

Re: New God: Dang, the Shadowed

Yes, Dith piety gain was greatly decreased recently.
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Post Saturday, 15th February 2014, 04:02

Re: New God: Dang, the Shadowed

Okay... I'm trying D for the first time, and it seemed like it took an awful lot to begin with. Then again, for a god that accepts all sorts of killing, he doesn't take blood sacrifices, so maybe that's a factor. Then the first granted power is the umbra, which IIRC made you and your cronies harder to hit... oh, and stealth too, awesome. I was going to say that maybe it felt a bit underwhelming, but no.

When playing VpEn I usually went with Makhleb simply for the health on kill. I know about makhleb invocations being usable in batform (if that's still a thing) but never got around training my invocations skill. This was a thorough waste of a religion, but Dith seems like a very fitting god with the ev and stealth bonus. Also kinda thematic, since enchanters branch into ice, and dith hates fire. Casted Corona by mistake once, which he hates too, though... the penalty doesn't seem too harsh though, got the first piety star shortly after that.

OT:
So, I'm playing a Lasombra now? :D Tzimisce seem much harder to pull off, what with self-transmutations only being castable when you'r'e so full of blood it pours out of your ears.
Hirsch I wrote:Also,are you calling me a power-gamer? this is highly offensive! now excuse me, I have to go back to my GrBe game, that I savescummed until trog gave me a Vampiric +9 claymore.
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