God proposal: Sundaross, The Tinkerer

[Tiktacy]

Sundaross, The Tinkerer:

Appreciates:

-Killing living, undead, or demonic creatures. Things like statues, golems, or flying weapons don't count.
-training evocations
-creating rods(by praying over staffs)

Depreciates:

-forgetting him
-using decks(they are a disgrace)

Abilities:

.....: praying over enhancer staffs turns them into rods. Purphorose will passively increase spell power depending on piety.
*.....: using wands will occasionally not take away a charge.
**....: new ability: [reconstruct]: transforms a Wand or non-rod, non-deck evocable into another evocable of the same tier and reduces charges by half or makes it inert. Using it on wands with no charges or an evocable that is innert has a chance to destroy it. Costs piety.
***...: new ability: [energy tap]: takes away all charges on a wand and give hp depending now and and it's amount of charges. Has a chance to destroy the wand in the process. Costs piety.
****..: New ability: [transfer energy]: destroys a wand or evocable and gives a similar effect of scroll of recharging, depending on the evocable.
*****.: Sundaross will sometimes gift randart rings and amulets, the likes of which can contain any of the evocations of wands in the game, they do cost mana to use though. Rings and amulets always have at least one kind of evocable, amulets have a higher chance to contain strong evocables(but either one can possess haste or heal wounds). Amulets given this way will also very rarely possess one of several unique abilities, here are some ideas:

[+Energy Shield]: creates a powerful shield that completely protects you from damage, but depletes mana in exchange. Amount of damage per mana depends on piety and evocations(0 piety renders it near useless). This works against hellfire damage, but not damage from sources that cause damage to yourself(like ablaze or SoB), or things like torment or pain.

[+Set Ablaze}: your body is set ablaze and you go berserk, and you take irresistible damage every turn. Unlike berserk, you can stay like this for as long as you want and you aren't slowed or exhausted when it ends. Damage Taken is drastically increased if piety is less than 0.

[+Wind Dance]: 4 weapons in your inventory are turned into flying weapons(if there is room), these are chosen randomly not including weapons wielded. Rods cannot be chosen this way. At 0 piety, they are spawned hostile.

[+Divine Lightning]: when evoked, creates a never ending elec brand on your weapon. This overrides branded weapons, but not artifact ones. The brand is removed when you take off the ring. And yes, this works on your fists.

Wrath:

-using evocables has a chance of causing miscast effects.
-will sometimes summon hostile magical constructs against you.

Purpose:

To be honest, he doesn't really fulfill any real "purpose" in crawl, other than to add a new playstyle to the mix. I think it's a fun Idea, at it seems unique enough to work. It's kind of just in the ideas stage, so I'm open to opinions and i'de love to hear some what other people think. I don't know about other people, but I've always wanted to base my build off of evocations.

(Btw, the name is just a placeholder, I'll try to think of something better later)

[Sandman25]

I like the idea!
I think rHellfire will not be accepted by developers, it is too powerful. Do those gifted randart amulets always have at least one evocable ability?

[Galefury]

I think rHellfire will not be accepted by developers, it is too powerful.

Haha.

(Dj)

[Tiktacy]

I like the idea!
I think rHellfire will not be accepted by developers, it is too powerful. Do those gifted randart amulets always have at least one evocable ability?

Fair enough, instead we can just say energy shield affects hellfire damage as well.

Yes, rings always have at least one evocable, amulets always get at least one wand evocable.

[Tiktacy]

I think rHellfire will not be accepted by developers, it is too powerful.

Haha.

(Dj)

Lol my thoughts exactly.

[Sandman25]

I think rHellfire will not be accepted by developers, it is too powerful.

Haha.

(Dj)

Yes, I know about Dj. I will be glad if I am wrong, I always wanted to play an unkillable rHellfire lichform NaWz with foo storm

[dck]

I think rHellfire will not be accepted by developers, it is too powerful.

Haha.

(Dj)

Well, no one really accepts Dj so it all works out.
Accidental thanks too, whoops.

[Lasty]

I'm pretty sure the monsters you listed as "machines" aren't machines. Even statues are magically animated, not machines. Also, this god charges piety for the ability to "reconstruct", but gives piety when creating a rod. As far as I can tell, you can only "create" a rod by reconstructing one, so is the intention to make rod reconstruction piety-neutral?

This god is allegedly the god of machines, but all of its abilities relate to non-machine objects. To be fair, the closest Crawl gets to machines are crossbows and mechanical traps (mostly removed) but still . . .

[reaver]

To be honest, he doesn't really fulfill any real "purpose" in crawl, other than to add a new playstyle to the mix.

Here's the problem: this doesn't add a new playstyle. At all. There is zero reason for a worshipper to do anything different than a regular evoker.

Seriously, try writing out how many ways worshipping this god would change the game and create new and interesting decisions. (Things like energy tap/transfer energy that could be replicated by spawning more potions of heal wounds or scrolls of recharging don't count.) Here's an example I wrote for Chei on another god thread:

Cheibraiodos gives me slow movement speed. This opens up an amazing amount of depth on its own. How does the value of translocations, stealth, invisibility, attack range, etc. change in response to this handicap? I'm forced to reevaluate how much these are worth.....The huge stat boosts also change how I play. I can wear big armour and get good dodging on species that normally wouldn't. Dex and Str give a big boost to melee, and Int to spellcasting. I don't want to do things unrelated to stats, like Evocations. Bend Time makes me think about how slowing so many enemies will effect the situation, and which fights it's best to use it in. Temporal Distortion has uses such as dissipating clouds, splitting slime creatures and letting enemy buffs expire. Slouch costs enough piety to make me think about when to use it, and also makes me reconsider which enemies I should watch out for - bee packs become easy problems, while normally I would find them difficult enemies. Step From Time tends to set up interesting situations, like being teleported - you're in a desperate situation and you get a refreshed area. Just don't use it if you're near a statue, or a monster's patrol point, etc.

[nicolae]

Another "God of One Item Class", although at least the ****** power involves evocable jewellry instead of wands and rods.

[Sandman25]

I think it is not very productive to compare new gods with Chei. Most (all except Elyvion?) other existing gods do not change play style that much except for some minor things like no poison, no necromutation or no cannibalism.

[johlstei]

Does "the likes of which can contain any of the evocations of wands in the game" mean you can get a ring with +Heal Wounds on it? Sign me up...

[1010011010]

If you want a god of machines, you'll have to put machines into the game:

Tickaty the Tinkerer:

Tickaty is the god of clockwork and machinery.

appreciates praying away things
appreciates his machines working (killing)

depreciates abandoning

basic concept:
pray away suitable items (weapons, armour, wands, rods and select evokables) and occasionally Tickaty will return your items in the form of a mechanical minion. The better weapons you give, the better offence your ally will have; similarly armour is to defence. Praying evokables may result in a machine with an ability (eg. pray a disc of the storms and later you might be given a robot with lightning bolt). Your basically giving Tickaty material for machines, but not all you give will be used, If you pray away good items you get good allies, pray lots gets you lots.

*no abilities
**automatize (activated): automatize gives a mundane weapon the automatize brand which effectively halves the skill needed to wield it, it may also break it.
*** no new abilities
****maintenance (passive): full health machines (when not attacking) may heal one adjacent machine dependant on its quality.
*****overdrive (activated): drives a selected machine into a self-destructive frenzy: increase strenght & speed, slowly looses health.
******no new abilities

[Tiktacy]

Does "the likes of which can contain any of the evocations of wands in the game" mean you can get a ring with +Heal Wounds on it? Sign me up...

Yes, but heal wounds would likely cost a lot of mana to use and/or cost significant hunger. Heal wounds would be more likely to appear on an amulet though, with the standards I set up.

For a bit more evaluation, I would like to point out that choosing this god allows a different take on the game. IE, rather than investing in multiple schools of spell casting, you invest in one and basically gain all the minor spells in the game, with a small chance of getting more powerful skills like haste and bolt of fire without having to invest the exp into it(although I would imagine haste would be unbelievably rare, basically the equivalent of getting a GSC of speed from trog). It also is the only way I know of that allows an unlimited source of heal wounds, which is something totally new and allows a different take on things.

In virtually every game, you are pretty much required to invest in spells to succeed unless you are a trog worshipper. This can sometimes be difficult, especially for players who want to use heavy armors like GDA or CPA. Of course, you can simply just train evocations on the side and you will have access to ranged, but the more convenient idea might be to simply branch into bow or crossbow skills(trog in particularly likes giving you lots of longbows).

Here are some examples where this offers a unique play experience:

TrXX: While trolls aren't exactly very good at evocations, it is much more convenient to simply put everything into one skill rather than spend ages trying to train up for other ones. This also opens up new doors for trolls wanting to use maces or magic instead of unarmed(which will likely be the better option anyway), since a rod of striking is likely to appear before vaults since you can transform magic staffs.

DDXX: being able to have free recharges on heal wounds would be incredibly good, and the rods they will likely get early game will be considerably more powerful since they are so adept at evocations. It also gives them another choice in god rather than the standard Makhleb vs Trog choice.

HuXX: Humans might become a bit more common of a choice since they are considerably rare from what I can tell. Their Evocations and exp aptitudes would make them a good option for this god in particular.

FeXX: Felids may not be able to use most of the invocations(god abilities, this god wouldn't require inv at all) given, but the abilities given by the rings and amulets are especially useful to felids considering their terrible aptitudes in conjurations, and they are more capable of dealing with the hunger issues as well.

OpXX: Finally, a god that gifts rings for these poor guys. The rings and amulets of course, would potentially have more than just evocable abilities on them, they would likely have chances of giving passives like protection. Also, this offers more opportunity for Op's to become stabbers, since confusion of paralysis will be considerably more powerful in evocable form.

As a whole, this god can also offer a unique analogue for any character, while not interfering too much with how you play your game like say, Vehumet or Trog. I would definitely like to hear what some of the dev's think, does it sound like it could go places or is it just another failed god suggestion?

[Tiktacy]

Tickaty the Tinkerer

LOL! I read that as Tiktacy at first. XD

[Tiktacy]

I changed the name and did some editing to the OP. I added some abilities and edited some other ones, thoughts on improvements?

[dpeg]

Tiktacy: You ask for comments, here I am.

1. Cannot use a name starting with S (neither with T): Sif Muna and Trog already exist.

2. The god is quite limited in scope: basically it's about wands. Now you can say that Nemelex is basically about cards (and it's true!) but cards are like several spell schools in one, and the Trickster's card manipulation powers are of a different level, tactically and strategically.

3. Wands sometimes not using a charge: that's good. Chance should depend on piety, say starting at 33% and capping at 66%.

4. Reconstruct: not so sure this is good. There are not enough wand types. You get Healing/Hasting quicker that way -- what else?

5. Energy tap: you probably mean that the HP gained depend on wand tier (and charges)? That's not too bad, it means that you with Reconstruct, you're really going for Hasting.

6. Transfer: this is problematic, you get into a circle. (I actually assume that you are not allowed to use up emptied wands as recharging sources, otherwise it's even worse.)

7. Gifts: My opinion on gifts is probably well known -- I believe that they're generally bad design. There are some exceptions, but hoping for the ultimate randart jewellery is not one of them.

I think that part of the underlying problem is this: wands alone will not make a sustainable build, I think. This is different from cards. It seems as if with this god, you're trying to change this -- is a goal to have the player use damaging wands in Zot? If so, will it be cool? (Second question not rhethorical, but I am inclined to say no: using a very limited set of bolt spells all the time is perhaps not what I want from a god.)

To add something constructive: I believe that wands can play a role for a god, but they should be secondary (just like wands are). Here's something that I toyed with for Vehumet (now obsolete): You can quiver a damage wand and every ranged attack (spell, projectile, card) will also fire that wand. Increasing firepower that way seems to be a nice touch, and it's sort of self-scaling (you can use up low tier attack wands early on that way).

That said, I am skeptical about an all-out wands god.

[reaver]

IE, rather than investing in multiple schools of spell casting, you invest in one and basically gain all the minor spells in the game, with a small chance of getting more powerful skills like haste and bolt of fire without having to invest the exp into it(although I would imagine haste would be unbelievably rare, basically the equivalent of getting a GSC of speed from trog).

You realize you can reasonably expect to get a copy of almost every wand in the game by the end of a 3-runer, right? Particularly if you're willing to blow an acquirement or two on it, or buy from shops. I don't see how this significantly differs from just training evocations.

It also is the only way I know of that allows an unlimited source of heal wounds, which is something totally new and allows a different take on things.

Elyvilon, as the god of healing, also provides unlimited healing.

In virtually every game, you are pretty much required to invest in spells to succeed unless you are a trog worshipper.

This just isn't true. Good players can win any "pure fighter" combo you can think of, and no spell Mi, HO, LO, Ce, Ds, Gr, Gh, Tr, or Mf, of Okawaru, Ash, Beogh, Ely, Lugonu, Makhleb, or Yred aren't just possible - they're Tier 1/2 combos.

Here are some examples where this offers a unique play experience:

I really like you took my advice and tried to plot this out, but I'm still not convinced.

TrXX: While trolls aren't exactly very good at evocations, it is much more convenient to simply put everything into one skill rather than spend ages trying to train up for other ones. This also opens up new doors for trolls wanting to use maces or magic instead of unarmed(which will likely be the better option anyway), since a rod of striking is likely to appear before vaults since you can transform magic staffs.

On the first point, I don't see much differance from Nemblex, except the fact Nemblex is superior in almost every way. On the second point: Rods of striking and Troll Claws aren't even in the same league. Nobody in their right mind would use a rod of striking on a Troll.

DDXX: being able to have free recharges on heal wounds would be incredibly good, and the rods they will likely get early game will be considerably more powerful since they are so adept at evocations. It also gives them another choice in god rather than the standard Makhleb vs Trog choice.

I think this still hits the "insignificantly different from worshipping another god and just training evocations" problem. A DD of Makhleb doesn't have to worry about healing outside some edge cases.

HuXX: Humans might become a bit more common of a choice since they are considerably rare from what I can tell. Their Evocations and exp aptitudes would make them a good option for this god in particular.

This bit just confuses me. Humans have average Evocations, it's +1 because on average Evocations is easier to train than other skills.

FeXX: Felids may not be able to use most of the invocations(god abilities, this god wouldn't require inv at all) given, but the abilities given by the rings and amulets are especially useful to felids considering their terrible aptitudes in conjurations, and they are more capable of dealing with the hunger issues as well.
OpXX: Finally, a god that gifts rings for these poor guys. The rings and amulets of course, would potentially have more than just evocable abilities on them, they would likely have chances of giving passives like protection. Also, this offers more opportunity for Op's to become stabbers, since confusion of paralysis will be considerably more powerful in evocable form.

Interesting points, but getting a few choice pieces of Jewelry with special properties isn't strong enough to base a god on. Trog and Okawaru gifts manipulate the player's decisions, but it's only one aspect of their playstyles.

I changed the name and did some editing to the OP. I added some abilities and edited some other ones, thoughts on improvements?

I can't even tell what changes you made, excluding some better formatting and extending reconstruct. There isn't some bold new mechanic to save the proposal.

[Tiktacy]

Tiktacy: You ask for comments, here I am.

1. Cannot use a name starting with S (neither with T): Sif Muna and Trog already exist.

2. The god is quite limited in scope: basically it's about wands. Now you can say that Nemelex is basically about cards (and it's true!) but cards are like several spell schools in one, and the Trickster's card manipulation powers are of a different level, tactically and strategically.

3. Wands sometimes not using a charge: that's good. Chance should depend on piety, say starting at 33% and capping at 66%.

4. Reconstruct: not so sure this is good. There are not enough wand types. You get Healing/Hasting quicker that way -- what else?

5. Energy tap: you probably mean that the HP gained depend on wand tier (and charges)? That's not too bad, it means that you with Reconstruct, you're really going for Hasting.

6. Transfer: this is problematic, you get into a circle. (I actually assume that you are not allowed to use up emptied wands as recharging sources, otherwise it's even worse.)

7. Gifts: My opinion on gifts is probably well known -- I believe that they're generally bad design. There are some exceptions, but hoping for the ultimate randart jewellery is not one of them.

I think that part of the underlying problem is this: wands alone will not make a sustainable build, I think. This is different from cards. It seems as if with this god, you're trying to change this -- is a goal to have the player use damaging wands in Zot? If so, will it be cool? (Second question not rhethorical, but I am inclined to say no: using a very limited set of bolt spells all the time is perhaps not what I want from a god.)

To add something constructive: I believe that wands can play a role for a god, but they should be secondary (just like wands are). Here's something that I toyed with for Vehumet (now obsolete): You can quiver a damage wand and every ranged attack (spell, projectile, card) will also fire that wand. Increasing firepower that way seems to be a nice touch, and it's sort of self-scaling (you can use up low tier attack wands early on that way).

That said, I am skeptical about an all-out wands god.

Ok, how about rather than gifts and reconstruction, you gain an ability called "Reforge" or "Tinker" where you stand over a pile of evocables and jewellery and it combines them into one, creating a randart ring or amulet with evocable abilities depending on what is sacrificed, or near random abilities with some dependance on what is sacrificed? That would be more thematic, and it sounds fun and interesting to me. For example, you reforge 3 wands of cold(all with 15 charges), 3 wands of frost(all with 20 charges), 2 rings of rC, and you get [Ring of Eternal Winter {+Bolt of Cold}]. You could also potentially get something like [Ring of RNG's love {rC++ +Bolt of Cold +Throw Frost}] or [Ring of really unfortunate luck {+bolt of Frost}] but the latter would ideally be far less likely(or even impossible) when using enough items.

What I really want is to make a god that allows unique evocable abilities, that sounds really fun and unique to me, while not too game breaking at the same time. Also, bolt wands in vault could work, since you have access to both fire and cold at high spell power.