What are manuals for?

[njvack]

I don't mean "what do they mechanically do" but rather "what is their intended role in Crawl?" I got to thinking when I read:

Elf 3 often contains manuals

in the "Should you do Elf:3 or Crypt:5?" thread, and realized: a manual has never changed a decision I've made in a Crawl game. Ever. They're so vanishingly rare that by the time I've found them, it's either "Hey look, free XP in something I'm training anyhow!" or "Hey look, free XP in something I don't care about." It's not like that Maces & Flails manual I pick up at the end of Vaults is going to make me put down whatever weapon let me clear Vaults in the first place.

Manuals are one item class that might actually be more interesting if it were weighted to appear early in the game. If they're gonna influence my character, that's the time to do it...

If they're intended just as "hey look, free XP" then that's cool, too.

[Sandman25]

My DExx of Vehumet found 2 manuals of Ice Magic in Ice Cave, that was the only time when manuals affected my decisions.

[reaver]

Manuals are, in part, an artifact of the old skill system. Originally, all manuals let you do was train skills without victory dancing. When victory dancing was removed, they were left without a reason to exist. Rather than removing them, they were given their current aptitude boosting mechanic.

I think it would be great if they manuals were nerfed slightly to give less XP and spawned earlier in the game. Their main function right now appears to be loot, but they can also change a skilling decision in the mid-late game.

It seems to me the best place to spawn a manual would be before the player finishes the Lair. Spawning them in the first couple floors would promote start scumming, but it'd be interesting to, for example, get a manual of Evocations before the Temple and having decide whether to go Nemblex.

[jejorda2]

Manuals of stealth, dodging, and armour found in ice caves have changed my equipment decisions in Lair.

Maybe there should be vaults with underused spells and related manuals, or artefact weapons and manuals. Put one or both items in a shop instead of on the ground. I'm thinking Alistair's Intoxication, Ignite Poison, Olgreb's radiance, Polymorph, Sure Blade, Tukima's Dance might be candidates. But my list is probably flawed.

[Tiber]

I don't think they've lost their purpose. To me, they're sort of like specialized potions of experience.
I think I would increase the chances of seeing them in shops, especially book shops. They are potentially pretty good items, and it doesn't really break balance if they're in a shop where you have to earn them.

[Bloax]

It would also be an idea to make them a bit less expensive, so that you wouldn't have to clear Orc:1-4 to even have a chance to buy one.

[rebthor]

nvjack, I agree with you but I have run into situations where a late-ish game manual would cause me to train something that I might not have trained further. For example, if I find a manual of stealth, I'll probably dump some XP into stealth that I normally wouldn't have. Ditto goes for a character that has it's defenses in line and finds dodging/armour; a manual can make those skills cheap again so putting in a few more levels is worth it. Or a manual of evocations. Most of the other ones I agree with though. I'm not going to suddenly start training conjurations on a centaur with bows and a demon blade just because I ran into a manual.

[XuaXua]

If we're going to be reducing manual effectiveness, then their placement in reward troves should stand out.

Many have cited manuals from the Ice Cave portal. I'd consider adding a manual to each portal treasure area (Volcano, Ossuary, Oriflame/Axe, even Sewer) and at the end of Lair.

Regarding altering their effectiveness, how about changing it to the typical three-tier basis but not use their actual effectiveness (how much +# they add to a skill); instead rank based on how much XP they will apply to:

• manual with extra notes and tips (rare, works at current trunk XP rate 100%)
• manual (standard; 66%)
• worn manual missing pages (common; 33%))

[dck]

So if their current rarity is retained manuals become even more useless than they already are and if they're made more common everyone has to lug crappy minimanuals around.

[Tiktacy]

Make manuals have a high chance to spawn in portal vaults, it gives more incentive to enter them and makes them feel more rewarding. We would be killing two birds with one stone that way.

[Klown]

I've focused on a couple other skills that I didn't plan on due to manuals, but they are rare and that was mid-game.

Early game manuals, with increased spawn rate = <3

[TwilightPhoenix]

I'm honestly not sure if a manual has ever made me invest in a skill I would have otherwise ignored. I never seem to find them until around Vaults.

[rchandra]

I had a MiGl that used two ice manuals with no ice spells for a staff of cold (hoping for ice spells later)! This goes back to being early manuals though (ice cave).

[Hurkyl]

I'm honestly not sure if a manual has ever made me invest in a skill I would have otherwise ignored. I never seem to find them until around Vaults.

What about investing in a skill you would have put off?

I can recall two relatively recent instances. In one, I got an Air manual shortly after getting Tornado down to a happy failure rate -- so I opted to continue training Air to get an even lower failure rate.

In another, a Dodging manual make me decide to train Dodging until the manual ran out before switching to other skills, rather than when I would normally have switched over.

[Brannock]

Are manuals so powerful that they can't be placed earlier in the Dungeon without reducing their strength? It seems to me that finding an early manual should change a game significantly, but I'm not sure if they would have nearly that effect if they were weaker to go along with being able to show up earlier.

(I don't think they should appear more frequently, however.)

[Siegurt]

What if instead of a temporary +4 bonus to an aptitude, instead you got a *permanant* +1 (or +2?) shift in aptitude on use, with retroactive effects on skill level (Like draconian color change).

That would make them give you the same bonus, no matter when you got them (whether early or late) And mean you didn't have to lug them around until you'd used them up (Which is one reason when I find them that I either drop them or train the skill immediately)

I'm not sure if that makes them better or worse or the same, but it would be an interesting take on the 'manual' concept.

[galehar]

Are manuals so powerful that they can't be placed earlier in the Dungeon without reducing their strength?

Indeed, I think that could be interesting. Currently, it seems they don't generate before D:8. Maybe they could generate from D:2 or even D:1. If they are too strong, we could also nerf the early ones into "short manuals" with less skill points.

What if instead of a temporary +4 bonus to an aptitude, instead you got a *permanant* +1 (or +2?) shift in aptitude on use

Then, there's no reason not to use it. The current one requires investment, so there's a choice.

[Bloax]

(I don't think they should appear more frequently, however.)

When is the last time you saw a manual lying around D:1-Vaults:5? I've only encountered a couple of ice magic ones in a certain ice cave and one or two in shops.

They are practically like potions of experience, except I've actually had an early one of those already - not to mention that those are vastly superior to manuals.

[archaeo]

What if instead of a temporary +4 bonus to an aptitude, instead you got a *permanant* +1 (or +2?) shift in aptitude on use

Then, there's no reason not to use it. The current one requires investment, so there's a choice.

If by "investment" you mean "uses up 1/52 of your carrying capacity unless you're a baby with baby str," then sure, it's an investment.

I don't really think manuals have to be changed, but if I was proposing a change, I'd say remove them altogether and give apt boosting properties to the main three runes. One gives a random boost to melee, one gives a random boost to magic. Give the Silver Rune a random defensive skill apt boost. You could continue this through the other runes, but I think it'd be better to give them small passive bonuses.

[galehar]

What if instead of a temporary +4 bonus to an aptitude, instead you got a *permanant* +1 (or +2?) shift in aptitude on use

Then, there's no reason not to use it. The current one requires investment, so there's a choice.

If by "investment" you mean "uses up 1/52 of your carrying capacity unless you're a baby with baby str," then sure, it's an investment.

No I meant the skill training investment obviously.

[dpeg]

Currently, it seems they don't generate before D:8. Maybe they could generate from D:2 or even D:1. If they are too strong, we could also nerf the early ones into "short manuals" with less skill points.

This sounds good! We can always revert or re-nerf, but seeing if/how they're used when available earlier will be helpful. I also think they could do with some care regarding shops. (Are the prices in any way adequate? I don't know.)

[archaeo]

No I meant the skill training investment obviously.

Sorry, I see what you mean now.

[Siegurt]

No I meant the skill training investment obviously.

Sorry, I see what you mean now.

You'd still need to invest the skill training into the skill to get the bonus from the aptitude. Yes, you would just use it immediately, but to get any advantage out of it you'd still need to train the relevant skill. (Note I didn't suggest the manual just raised the *skill* by a point or two, but rather the *aptitude* be increased by 1-2 points)

[duvessa]

They are practically like potions of experience.

A manual has a 1/31 chance of being for the skill you want the most. A potion of experience has a 1/1 chance of being for the skill you want the most.

[XuaXua]

So if their current rarity is retained manuals become even more useless than they already are and if they're made more common everyone has to lug crappy minimanuals around.

Thanks for reading! If you did find and decide to lug around a lesser manual, it expires quicker than a current style manual!

[TwilightPhoenix]

What about investing in a skill you would have put off?

I can't think of an instance where that's happened to me (memory might be failing me though). They've either been stuff I wasn't interested in, like Long Blades after hitting min delay for my Executioner's Axe, or skills I was already training so using it was a no-brainer.


But that's just my personal experience. Clearly from this topic there's been a few instances where current manuals impacted someone's decision making. But I'd definitely be for them doing it more often.

[Baldu2]

I seem to remember manuals being really strong in sprints. Probably has to do with the weird fast way skills level up in there.

[varsovie]

Why not give them a +3 to +6 bonus to the skill (like oka's heroism), but allowing you to have only one manual read at any time?

It would give you some utility in boosting your path, helping in getting a new one, and actually gives you decision while making them valuable both early and late.

[archaeo]

No I meant the skill training investment obviously.

Sorry, I see what you mean now.

You'd still need to invest the skill training into the skill to get the bonus from the aptitude. Yes, you would just use it immediately, but to get any advantage out of it you'd still need to train the relevant skill. (Note I didn't suggest the manual just raised the *skill* by a point or two, but rather the *aptitude* be increased by 1-2 points)

I mean, I see this point, but I think it's still an investment that's either a no-brainer (GrEE^Veh finds Manual of Earth) or totally worthless (GrEE^Veh finds Manual of Crossbows), as other people have already said. In the end, if it's a manual you want to use, it doesn't "feel" like an investment, it feels like a virtually free bonus.

I think if you want to make it a sharper decision, you don't want to nerf the aptitude bonus; +4 is just double XP, after all, and it doesn't last forever. Maybe you could make studying a manual cause all other skills to receive an aptitude malus? Maybe reading a manual could prevent the use of scrolls? Or decrease your to-hit rolls ("You fail to hit the foo; your nose is deep in the manual")? I don't know, but I think it might help if you added a downside instead of reducing the upside, especially if you want manuals to feel like a) a choice and b) a paradigm shift. I like a high-risk-high-reward situation, and lowering the aptitude bonus but throwing them earlier in the D just seems like it would make the same problems, only earlier.