some ideas for new unrand weapons

[starless]

How feasible is it to include weapons which must be assembled to wield? I first came across this concept in the gamebook Blood Sword, and it's also been used in the game Baldur's Gate II.

Basically, a weapon in 2 or 3 parts, and once they are all acquired it can be used.

For example:

  Code:

The Blade of the executioner's axe "Tenebra Mortis" + The Hilt of the executioner's axe "Tenebra Mortis" + The Handle of the executioner's axe "Tenebra Mortis"

the +20, +5 executioner's axe "Tenebra Mortis"

This enormous axe was once used by an unnamed necromancer who defied The Shining One and fought a legion of Daevas until he was overwhelmed and banished. His axe was broken and its three pieces scattered, so that it may never be reforged and wielded again.

rN++
MR
Regen
Evil
Curse

or

  Code:

the +0, +20 executioner's axe "Tenebra Mortis"

Once a valiant warrior ventured deep into the Titan Fortress, his huge axe smoking with the black blood of the countless giants he had slain. When he was finally overwhelmed by a host of ettins, his weapon was taken apart and scattered, so that it may never be wielded again.

Giant slaying brand
Regen
Curse

I had a go with axes, since there are lacking somewhat in the unrands department.

[dpeg]

I think it's a cool concept but that's a completely personal opinion. I take it for granted that generating one item of the set carries the promise that the others will be generated as well. This goes in a quest-like direction and I'm sure that interesting things can be done with it!

[starless]

Perhaps the chance to generate the first part (of a 3-part weapon) can be as low as any unrand.

But once you get the first part, you are either:

- guaranteed to acquire the remaining parts, which may appear on any guaranteed level (that is excluding random Pan levels and Abyss)
- or you are not guaranteed to acquire the remaining parts, but your chances of acquiring the second part increase substantially, and so on.

Along the quest route, this could be the final gift of a God, who would grant you the first part and you have to assemble the whole weapon. In which case the remaining pieces will be guaranteed (within the standard game levels, excluding Hell, Pan and Abyss)

Or the God gift can be an upgradable weapon, which could be used immediately, but as the game progresses the God will upgrade the weapon 2 more times, as long as you don't abandon him or throw the weapon away. For example:

Stage 1: the +1, +1 executioner's axe "Tenebra Mortis" {MR, Evil, Curse}
Stage 2: the +10, +3 executioner's axe "Tenebra Mortis" {rN+, MR, Evil, Curse}
Stage 3: the +15, +5 executioner's axe "Tenebra Mortis" {rN+, MR, Regen, Evil, Curse}

Off-topic: I also like the idea of a God who grants you an artifact (non-unrand) weapon and then upgrades it through the course of the game with random, usually positive, enchantments and intrinsics.

[Hirsch I]

the "assemble your own weapon" thing would be interesting with dpeg's "Okawaru, god of the forge" idea. he could be the only god who can gift weapon parts.
EDIT: removed quote that makes no sense.

[nicolae]

I think it's a cool concept but that's a completely personal opinion. I take it for granted that generating one item of the set carries the promise that the others will be generated as well. This goes in a quest-like direction and I'm sure that interesting things can be done with it!

I've thought a bit about unrand sets like this, though not the specific scenario of collecting pieces of a weapon to put together later. It might be more useful if the individual parts have some utility on their own, and then much greater power when combined. Otherwise, I feel like 95% of players are going to find the first piece and go "eh, screw it, by the time I've put the damn thing together I'll have something better with less hassle".

[dpeg]

starless: my notion of "quest" is pretty weak. I just mean that you have to do something slightly out of the ordinary, and it is not short term. (So for me, collecting stuff for a trove would be a quest, but trying to reach that portal vault wouldn't be.) Your weapon sets would be quest-like in that sense, because once the first item appears, you know the others will too, and can prepare. How sensible that is depends on for how long you have to hold out until you get the others. Shorter is clearly better, so I would think that the other pieces should be in the same branch at the very least. If one item is in a shop (which is cool in itself), then pricing should be guided (if we apply ordinary price generation, it'll very often be non-affordable at a time when you need the weapon). However, the real fun starts when the remaining pieces are in vaults. These vaults can be small -- just making use of OOD spawning (8 and 9 in the des syntax) can make sure you don't get your weapon too cheap. By the way, I don't think that such a weapon has to be --or even should be-- endgame-worthy.

[Hirsch I]

well, I think that if the weapon is not endgame worthy, there is little reason to go trough all the trouble of assembling its parts; even if it is, you will probably have something as good when you complete it...

[duvessa]

If the individual parts aren't somehow useful then this is functionally almost identical to just generating the assembled artefact wherever the last piece would generate. Completely pointless, in other words, compared to just adding a regular unrand.
Unrandart "sets" are a bit more interesting, but good item combinations already arise naturally (e.g. jihad + clarity, folly + four winds) and that seems a lot better than having actual sets; I certainly wouldn't want Crawl to have anything like ToME4's disaster of a system where you need a big list of spoilers to take significant advantage of them.

[dpeg]

minmay: This is exactly as pointless as generating an item in a shop. You see that it's there, and you may or may not react to that.

[ontoclasm]

There's a set of two swords in Warcraft that you can use separately, or glue together into one big sword. Something like that seems reasonable. So like, you'll find the +10,+0 war axe "Lefty" {chop, rF+} and the +0,+10 broad axe "Mr. Right" {chop, rC+}, and then if you find both you can combine them to get the +10,+10 battleaxe "Double Jeopardy" {chop, rF+, rC+, MR++} or whatever. Really it's just three different unrands, one of which is slightly rarer than normal, but there's a bit of flavour attached for no real cost, which is always nice.

[nicolae]

There's a set of two swords in Warcraft that you can use separately, or glue together into one big sword. Something like that seems reasonable. So like, you'll find the +10,+0 war axe "Lefty" {chop, rF+} and the +0,+10 broad axe "Mr. Right" {chop, rC+}, and then if you find both you can combine them to get the +10,+10 battleaxe "Double Jeopardy" {chop, rF+, rC+, MR++} or whatever.

A while ago I was thinking on a different idea for set items, a set of armor pieces whose properties would be similar to, say, the +X cloak of ____ {Str+X, EV+X}, the +X boots of ____ {Int+X, Acc+X}, the +X gloves of ____ {Dex+X, Dam+X} where X is the number of items in the set you're currently wearing, so with the example set, wearing one item would provide +1 AC, all three would provide +9 AC. (There's probably more interesting combinations of properties to work with, but I wanted a simple example.) I'm not sure of the best way to convey that kind of information to the player, though, and of course it also has the other problem of whether it's worth it trying to get all the pieces.

[starless]

I don't mind the idea of a single unrand weapon, that can be upgraded through various parts, which are not guaranteed to generate.

Option 1: One unrand weapon which can be upgraded with subsequent parts. The subsequent parts can only generate, in order, if the first part is generated, but they are not guaranteed:

  Code:

"The blade of Hurin's personal weapon. Even though missing its shaft and handle, it is still deadly to orc and trolls"

the +4, +8 the axe blade of "Aurë entuluva"
Dwarven Broad Axe
Slay orc
Slay Troll
Wiz

If you locate the shaft it will be transformed into:

  Code:

"The blade and shaft of Hurin's personal weapon. It is missing it's handle but has retained most of its legendary power"

the +9, +12 axe blade and shaft of "Aurë entuluva"
Dwarven Battleaxe
Slay orc
Slay Troll
STR+5
SInv
Wiz

If you locate the handle it will be transformed into:

  Code:

"This was Hurin's personal weapon. It has killed hordes of Orcs and Trolls and is hated by their kin.

the +15, +19 axe "Aurë entuluva"
Dwarven Battleaxe
Slay orc
Slay Troll
+Rage
STR+5
DEX+5
rN+
SInv
Wiz
Can cause frenzy to Orcs or Trolls it stikes


Option 2: Weapon is broken into parts, of which, each can be generated and used on its own (not in a predtermined order) with equal chance. All parts not guaranteed to generate in a single game, but any found parts can be combined:

  Code:

The legendary sword Lightbringer was the personal weapon of an angel, that was used to subdue the greatest of Pan lords. After completing his quest, this triple sword was undone and each of its blades was gifted to a holy crusader. Prophecy has it than one day Lightbringer will be reforged and wielded again if one were to find all its blades.

the +12, +7 falchion "Fortitude" {EV+5, rN+, MR++}
the +9, +9 long blade Temperance, {-Cast, rF+, rC+, rElec}
the +0, +0 scimitar "Justice" {holy, rPois, SInv}

Collecting any of the two blades can forge an upgraded weapon:

  Code:

the +15, +10 double sword "Fortitude and Temperance" {-Cast, EV+5, rF+, rC+, rElec, rN+, MR++}
the +9, +9, double sword "Temperance and Justice" {holy, -Cast, rF+, rC+, rElec, rPois, SInv}
the +12, +7, double sword "Justice and Fortitude" {holy, rPois, SInv, EV+5, rN+, MR++}

Collecting all three blades would produce:

  Code:

the +18 triple sword "Lightbringer" {holy, -Cast, rF+, rC+, rElec, rPois, SInv, EV+5, rN+, MR++}

Along those lines. I know the numbers and intrinsics look ridiculous, just trying to get the concept across.

[starless]

There's a set of two swords in Warcraft that you can use separately, or glue together into one big sword. Something like that seems reasonable. So like, you'll find the +10,+0 war axe "Lefty" {chop, rF+} and the +0,+10 broad axe "Mr. Right" {chop, rC+}, and then if you find both you can combine them to get the +10,+10 battleaxe "Double Jeopardy" {chop, rF+, rC+, MR++} or whatever. Really it's just three different unrands, one of which is slightly rarer than normal, but there's a bit of flavour attached for no real cost, which is always nice.

How does one combine the two weapons into one? Do you need to visit a forge or something or is there a command within the game?

[nicolae]

There's a set of two swords in Warcraft that you can use separately, or glue together into one big sword. Something like that seems reasonable. So like, you'll find the +10,+0 war axe "Lefty" {chop, rF+} and the +0,+10 broad axe "Mr. Right" {chop, rC+}, and then if you find both you can combine them to get the +10,+10 battleaxe "Double Jeopardy" {chop, rF+, rC+, MR++} or whatever. Really it's just three different unrands, one of which is slightly rarer than normal, but there's a bit of flavour attached for no real cost, which is always nice.

How does one combine the two weapons into one? Do you need to visit a forge or something or is there a command within the game?

Probably something on the (a)bility menu that appears if you have the weapons in your inventory.

[starless]

A while ago I was thinking on a different idea for set items, a set of armor pieces whose properties would be similar to, say, the +X cloak of ____ {Str+X, EV+X}, the +X boots of ____ {Int+X, Acc+X}, the +X gloves of ____ {Dex+X, Dam+X} where X is the number of items in the set you're currently wearing, so with the example set, wearing one item would provide +1 AC, all three would provide +9 AC. (There's probably more interesting combinations of properties to work with, but I wanted a simple example.) I'm not sure of the best way to convey that kind of information to the player, though, and of course it also has the other problem of whether it's worth it trying to get all the pieces.

I think I've seen such "set items" in Diablo 2:
http://www.d2tomb.com/setitems.shtml

However, in Crawl, I think any piece of armour is much more critical to your character than in Diablo. I don't know what benefits must a set of cloak, boots and helmet grant to best a cloak of preservation or boots of running/jumping. Also, sets with 3 or more items may not be usable by a few species, because of armour slot restrictions.

[ontoclasm]

I would just have you eVoke either half from your inventory. "Combine X and Y to form Z? (y/n)"

[Arrhythmia]

Please, honestly, this is killing me, read about the different parts of the sword before you keep calling the "hilt" and the "handle" different things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword#Morphology

I love the ideas here but good lord

[nicolae]

However, in Crawl, I think any piece of armour is much more critical to your character than in Diablo. I don't know what benefits must a set of cloak, boots and helmet grant to best a cloak of preservation or boots of running/jumping.

Well, there's already a bunch of unrand cloaks that don't provide preservation and unrand boots that don't provide running or jumping. (Not that there's many unrand boots at all at the moment.) Still, it's not like you couldn't make a piece of armor from a set have an ego.

Also, sets with 3 or more items may not be usable by a few species, because of armour slot restrictions.

sucks to be those species, I guess

[Volteccer_Jack]

Also, sets with 3 or more items may not be usable by a few species, because of armour slot restrictions.

Lear's hauberk already makes like half the races cry bitter tears. At least with a set they could use the pieces.

[Galefury]

I don't think set items are a good idea. Way too spoilery. Please, keep it simple.

Really it's just three different unrands, one of which is slightly rarer than normal, but there's a bit of flavour attached for no real cost, which is always nice.

If there are very few such items, the cost is consistency. There's this weird one-off special case where you can do something special once you have two specific unrands in your inventory. If this special case is clearly communicated this is no better or worse than the existing unrands, and would certainly be fine.

If there are a lot of such items, the cost is a massive list of completely unobvious spoilers. This is far far worse. So I'd prefer there not to be a precedent.

[dpeg]

Galefury: This is clearly in YANI territory, nothing about this is urgent. But I don't buy the spoiler argument: the item description has plenty of space to say exactly what's going on.

There is a lot of stuff that can be done here in principle: a weapon that needs a bunch of consumables to start working, or a weapon that only operates properly if you've thrown it in lava (stand next to lava and 'a'bility), or that has to be initiated by killing a particular kind of monster... Lots of flavour, and not completely irrelevant gameplay-wise. YANI stuff, as I said.

[nicolae]

Galefury: This is clearly in YANI territory, nothing about this is urgent. But I don't buy the spoiler argument: the item description has plenty of space to say exactly what's going on.

There is a lot of stuff that can be done here in principle: a weapon that needs a bunch of consumables to start working, or a weapon that only operates properly if you've thrown it in lava (stand next to lava and 'a'bility), or that has to be initiated by killing a particular kind of monster... Lots of flavour, and not completely irrelevant gameplay-wise. YANI stuff, as I said.

On a semi-related note, I was under the impression that you could use the ?/i menu to look up unrands by name, so that if a description of a set unrand mentioned the other set pieces by name, a player could look those up and not have to rely on spoilers. This turns out not to be the case, though. How easy would it be to fix this?

[starless]

Please, honestly, this is killing me, read about the different parts of the sword before you keep calling the "hilt" and the "handle" different things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword#Morphology

I love the ideas here but good lord

Yes, my mistake, I think I meant to write "pommel" instead of "handle."

[Tiktacy]

There's a set of two swords in Warcraft that you can use separately, or glue together into one big sword. Something like that seems reasonable. So like, you'll find the +10,+0 war axe "Lefty" {chop, rF+} and the +0,+10 broad axe "Mr. Right" {chop, rC+}, and then if you find both you can combine them to get the +10,+10 battleaxe "Double Jeopardy" {chop, rF+, rC+, MR++} or whatever. Really it's just three different unrands, one of which is slightly rarer than normal, but there's a bit of flavour attached for no real cost, which is always nice.

I believe those are called the warglaives of azzinoth. =)

Flavor aside, if this doesn't end up being a set weapon, it should at least be a fixedart. I like the idea of giant slaying, especially for executioners axes.