CK starting weapons.

[dck]

I believe the rationale for this change was that their old enchanted weapons were "boring" and that chaos branded ones would be more "exciting" but I don't see at all what is exciting about downgrading people's starting weapons and making them unreliable.
CK start with really good armour and used to start with a pretty good weapon because they're probably going to need it, as they worship Xom from turn 1. Xom does a lot of things, sometimes awful and sometimes great but other than manipulating tension you can't really influence it, that's where it differs from chaos weapons.
Chaos is very good brand, but it's a very good brand when you have the tools to deal with the potentially awful effects. In D: 1 you do not possess any of those tools so the only sensible thing to do is to replace the starting weapon as soon as possible by something not very awful.
This leads to some other problems such as long blade chaos knights being really suicidal since you may be stuck with a chaos falchion for easily five or six dungeon levels and even more superiority of M&F since maces are everywhere and you have pretty good chances of being able to replace your chaos mace by an unbranded on in D: 1, which means a whole lot less of berserking worms, gnolls and orcs.

Perhaps I am missing something here, but I don't think this was a good change. Weapons are tools CK use to deal with the already interesting god they worship and replacing them by things that may in fact be worse than zero UC fists does not seem reasonable.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Chaos brand is quite strong, and also much more interesting than what Xom does (usually nothing significant) IME.

Chaos is very good brand, but it's a very good brand when you have the tools to deal with the potentially awful effects.

I would argue the reverse. A berserk cockroach is manageable. A berserk giant is likely fatal unless you read blinking immediately.

[Mankeli]

I can kind of understand CKs starting with chaos weapons and it's not like you'd pick the CK background anyways if you were looking for a high percentage chance of winning.

What I don't understand at all why the weapons are only +0 when they used to be +2. In the early game berserking adders for -2 accuracy and damage enchantment doesn't seem like a good trade powerwise.

[dck]

But by the time you want to fight a giant you have other options than hitting it with a chaos mace. Risking your life in early D on constant dicerolls hoping that hound doesn't morph into a water moccasin or that the gecko doesn't go berserk isn't interesting, it's just bad, so you replace the weapon.

[Sandman25]

Can the background start with 2 weapons (chaos and regular)? Everyone would use what s/he wants. My last axe using CK could not find any axe early game and eventually got shafted from D4 to D6 so yes, non M&F weapons can be rare.

[Volteccer_Jack]

no because after the hound morphs into a water moccasin you hit it again and it gets paralysed

"constant dicerolls" does not mean "bad dicerolls", it means "dicerolls"

[dck]

So why does a CK have to have extra dicerolls than anyone else to see whether he kills something or gets killed in early d?
And that's without getting into how it screws over lbl users, as if lbl weren't used little enough.

[Volteccer_Jack]

So why does a CK have to have extra dicerolls than anyone else to see whether he kills something or gets killed in early d?

Because that's (supposedly) why you picked CK in the first place.

And that's without getting into how it screws over lbl users, as if lbl weren't used little enough.

lolno, falchion is the best of those weapon choices, ignoring racial aptitudes

[Marbit]

Have you tried stabbing with a knife of chaos?
As a stabber you usually don't fight much and one hit ko monsters... or at least fight them when they are badly hurt.
An when you have to fight there are many chaos effects that benefit stabbing (confuse, sleep, petriffy). If the heal, make stronget or berserk the enemy you will likely have enough agility to dodge a couple of hits and enough attack speed to connect several times and hope for a beneficial effect.

With any starting stabber I'd rather have a chaos knife than the plain knife.

[Sar]

Chaos Knights are not stabbers, at least not in the early game most definitely.

[TwilightPhoenix]

You don't pick Chaos Knight with the expectation that you'll win. Just like you don't worship Xom with the expectation that you'll win. If the Chaos brand doesn't appeal to you, just start a Fighter or something. You can always pick up Xom ASAP.

[dck]

I thought one chose CK to worship xom from turn 1 but apparently I'm wrong.
Racial aptitudes are irrelevant, being stuck with a piece of crap weapon that does all sorts of random shit all the time until someone happens to have some kind of long blade is not and it's awful.
Maces are by far the best choice for basically any CK.

@Mankeli: Chaos as I said is as great brand and has a lot of uses, being an early D bookless "stabber" of xom with no backup plan other than hoping something good happens when you hit things with your chaos weapon is a terrible way of trying to win a game.

[dck]

What, I pick CK with the expectation of winning all the time thank you very much. The chaos branded weapon was a blow to CKs reliability and an undeserved one at that.

[duvessa]

worms cant berserk

[Sandman25]

worms cant berserk

Is it because of plant intelligence?

[duvessa]

yes

[Mankeli]

@Mankeli: Chaos as I said is as great brand and has a lot of uses, being an early D bookless "stabber" of xom with no backup plan other than hoping something good happens when you hit things with your chaos weapon is a terrible way of trying to win a game.

What? You probably meant Marbit or something.

worms cant berserk

Many other monsters can though.

[dck]

Wow, I don't even know how I got that mixed up, sorry mate.

[Siegurt]

One thing I've noticed using the Chaos-branded starting weapon is that Xom gets bored a *lot* less easily, all those weird effects are all interesting to him, so he's a lot more likely to be nice.

Chaos is a very unreliable, but often powerful, brand. I find that I kill things faster on average with a +0 Chaos weapon, than I do with a +2 weapon, but very occasionally, it makes things worse or harder.

I have yet to be directly killed by a chaos effect, (Although it's caused more than a few close scrapes) which doesn't mean that it's worthwhile, but I think it's a reasonably helpful thing to have as a CK, and IMHO better *for someone who is trying to make Xom a happy camper* than a simple +2 weapon.

[rebthor]

One thing I've noticed using the Chaos-branded starting weapon is that Xom gets bored a *lot* less easily, all those weird effects are all interesting to him, so he's a lot more likely to be nice.

Chaos is a very unreliable, but often powerful, brand. I find that I kill things faster on average with a +0 Chaos weapon, than I do with a +2 weapon, but very occasionally, it makes things worse or harder.

I have yet to be directly killed by a chaos effect, (Although it's caused more than a few close scrapes) which doesn't mean that it's worthwhile, but I think it's a reasonably helpful thing to have as a CK, and IMHO better *for someone who is trying to make Xom a happy camper* than a simple +2 weapon.

I've seen this repeated a few times now and it's not true, at least the "more likely to be nice" part. The not being bored part is true I guess, but Xom's niceness is independent of his interest. Xom's attitude slightly trends towards niceness over time but is randomized every time Xom acts so having more acts (which is what using a chaos brand will do) will trend toward approximately equal amounts of good and bad acts. About the only thing using a chaos brand weapon will do is prevent Xom from getting bored which will save you from a few negative effects, so it might be worth it when facing popcorn enemies if you're playing slowly.

Please look at Xom attitude and Xom interest learndb entries for more thorough information.

[Baldu2]

It's a bit uncomfortable how winning and streaking in tournaments with xom means taking xom at the altar and with chaos knight to dump xom on turn 1.

[archaeo]

It's a bit uncomfortable how winning and streaking in tournaments with xom means taking xom at the altar and with chaos knight to dump xom on turn 1.

I mean, I've watched dck win quite a few CK without leaving Xom, and the idea that leaving him on turn 1 is the best move in the middle of a streak seems questionable to me, though playing CK while streaking is pretty questionable on its own.

But back on topic: I think starting with a chaos-branded weapon is good flavour and should remain. dck may be right that it's a little harder, but I don't see why that's necessarily a problem; CK is about dealing with Xom, one way or another, and chaos weapons factor into that.

[TwilightPhoenix]

What, I pick CK with the expectation of winning all the time thank you very much. The chaos branded weapon was a blow to CKs reliability and an undeserved one at that.

Considering that Xom can literally one-shot you with a miscast effect on turn 5, Chaos Knight really isn't the background to try to go for wins on (outside of challenge builds).

[Tiktacy]

Chaos Knights are not stabbers, at least not in the early game most definitely.

I'm sorry, but this is wrong. I don't care how much credibility you have, saying a chaos knight stabber strategy isn't good enough to be considered "existent" is just wrong. If anything, playing a muck stabber seems like the most consistent choice if you don't plan on scumming. =/

Have you ever tried playing a chaos knight with a stabber strategy? The chaos weapons might be inconsistent, but being able to confuse, paralyze, or even banish creatures without having to do anything but attack is much better than you might think. Also, if you are a stabber, you will rarely have to worry about the negative effects of chaos anyway, because you will usually be killing the creatures in 1-2 hits.

All that aside, a +2 weapon is hardly what I would call game changing, even in the early game. It might save you once out of every 20 games at most, but even that is a bit of a stretch.

[dck]

Considering that Xom can literally one-shot you with a miscast effect on turn 5, Chaos Knight really isn't the background to try to go for wins on (outside of challenge builds).

Except in practice Xom does that maybe one time every thousand games. Except in practice Xom doesn't act multiple times every single fight or somehow makes your actions unreliable by making the buttons that normally kill enemies have random effects like paralysis, berserk or poly self.

@Tiktacy: As are better stabbers than CKs and As are not stabbers at all. Hitting things with a chaos weapon hoping it'll stop moving instead of going berserk is an awful plan in early D.
A +2 weapon is a million times better than the current chaos weapon because it can actually be used in the most important part of the game without putting yourself in an extraordinary risk.

[Sar]

I'm sorry, but as far as I am concerned, stabbing in Crawl exists in two forms: Enchanters (start with a book that allows them to cast spells that help with stabbing) and needlestabbers (not necessarily assassins, because that requires specific needles that Trog might gift you at some point and is kinda more of a lategame option, though paralyzing Fiends and Panlords is kinda nice). Training stealth and hoping your short sword of chaos will paralyse the dude you are fighting instead of hasting him sounds a bit stupid to me, especially with the plethora of escape options mucks possess in the early game (the last bit is sarcasm, btw).
And yes I did use a qb of chaos on one of my offline wins. The dude who used it was stupidly buff though, definitely not a turn zero mummy.

I don't care how much credibility you have

Is that because your own credibility is in negatives?

[Sandman25]

Stealth-based stabbing works too but you need to have some backup option of course.

[Sar]

I remember I had a KoBe once and he stealth-stabbed a lot of things, but that was in really late game when I maxed Stealth and such because of Kobold apts and I still melee'd a lot of dudes in "normal" combat.
Anyway, this is going way offtopic. Would be nice if that could be split into General Advice. I think there's a MuCK thread already.

[Tiktacy]

I'm sorry, but as far as I am concerned, stabbing in Crawl exists in two forms: Enchanters (start with a book that allows them to cast spells that help with stabbing) and needlestabbers (not necessarily assassins, because that requires specific needles that Trog might gift you at some point and is kinda more of a lategame option, though paralyzing Fiends and Panlords is kinda nice). Training stealth and hoping your short sword of chaos will paralyse the dude you are fighting instead of hasting him sounds a bit stupid to me, especially with the plethora of escape options mucks possess in the early game (the last bit is sarcasm, btw).
And yes I did use a qb of chaos on one of my offline wins. The dude who used it was stupidly buff though, definitely not a turn zero mummy.

I don't care how much credibility you have

Is that because your own credibility is in negatives?

Please stop trying to mix up my words and telling people I said things that I never said. Seriously, it's like you are determined to make me wrong in whatever way you can.

As far as chaos knights go, a MuCK stabbing strategy is very winnable, much more so than trying to fight your way through mobs with subpar weapons(not that chaos weapons are exactly what I would consider "above average"). Besides, finding a book with usable debilitating spells is quite common.

[battaile]

It's a bit uncomfortable how winning and streaking in tournaments with xom means taking xom at the altar and with chaos knight to dump xom on turn 1.

Neither of those gives you a Xom win according to tournament rules.

[Sar]

@Tiktacy: I'll believe it when I see it. I think you should check your own thread in GA. Every single poster who replied to it has won at least one MuCK online, you might find their advice useful.

[Mankeli]

Stuff

Aaargh! Please, if you want advice, ask it in the "advice" section. At least one GDD thread, more likely two IIRC, have already recently gotten locked because you have insisted on something that 1) everyone else think that is not true and 2) which doesn't even have that much to do with the OP's idea. So please, let's stay on topic.

[Tiktacy]

@Tiktacy: I'll believe it when I see it. I think you should check your own thread in GA. Every single poster who replied to it has won at least one MuCK online, you might find their advice useful.

Literally every single one of them said "just so whatever and hope you win" that isn't advice, why would you ever consider that advice?

Also, I think the usefulness and applications of chaos weapons is completely related to the OP, albeit the point of muck is a 'little' beside the point.

[Sar]

@Tiktacy: If you reading comprehension was a bit better, you would notice that all of them who bothered giving weapon advise suggested upgrading your chaos weapon (mace, since Maces and Flails are by far the most common weapon type) as soon as you find a better weapon. Let me reiterate: people who actually played and won MuCKs think that chaos is horrible in the early game. Which, indeed, brings are back to the OP.

Personally, I think chaos is a cool brand by the time you can deal with bad effects, but CK starting weapons are not of good types (though I still want to win a SpCK using the starting sword some time). I think it would be cool if Xom would sometimes - completely randomly - offer you to chaos-bless a weapon in your inventory. Sure it might lead to people lugging around two weapons instead of one, but it would be cool. Though ranged weapons should probably be exempt from that.
Would that be useless or OP?

[johlstei]

It would be most Xomlike if he randomly rebranded weapons to chaos just before you hit things with them. Doesn't seem in-character of him to give you a choice.

[Siegurt]

I am playing through a LOCK right now and thought that would be an awesome Xom effect (Actually it being Xom, I think he'd do it to whatever you were holding regardless of whether you wanted him to or not) Probably not ranged weapon though, since Chaos is not a 'ranged' brand.

[Sar]

Xom gifts you stuff all the time but he never forces you to use it (except for mutation "gifts").
Well, actually he does gift you decent base type chaos weapons some time, but that is very rare, you are not guaranteed even one such weapon in a game. Which is probably fine, even if I wish you could play with chaos more.
Oh, and he also often blesses enemy weapons, so you might get a great mace of chaos since they are so common. One more reason to go M&F, as if you needed more.

@Siegurt: I think I saw Xom blessing enemy yaktaur xbow with chaos, and IIRC there was a vault with chaos longbows. I'm just concerned ranged chaos on demand might be a bit too strong. Also I think permanently overwriting your weapon's brand would be very, very bad, Xom already does a lot of annoying stuff to your weapons.

[dck]

Xom can already swap your weapon with an enemy's and then bless it anyway, although I'm not completely sure about this being able to override brands.
There ain't anything that makes ranged weapons less capable of being chaotic in the game right now btw, and in fact they've been recently fixed to have their effects be not resistible, much like melee chaos weapons.

[Sar]

He can? Well, that's a bummer.

[Tiktacy]

Subject: CK starting weapons.

Considering that Xom can literally one-shot you with a miscast effect on turn 5, Chaos Knight really isn't the background to try to go for wins on (outside of challenge builds).

Except in practice Xom does that maybe one time every thousand games. Except in practice Xom doesn't act multiple times every single fight or somehow makes your actions unreliable by making the buttons that normally kill enemies have random effects like paralysis, berserk or poly self.

@Tiktacy: As are better stabbers than CKs and As are not stabbers at all. Hitting things with a chaos weapon hoping it'll stop moving instead of going berserk is an awful plan in early D.
A +2 weapon is a million times better than the current chaos weapon because it can actually be used in the most important part of the game without putting yourself in an extraordinary risk.

Look, I wasn't saying CKs made "good" stabbers, I was saying stabbers made "good" chaos knights. I understand the misconception though, I think we could all benefit from reading into things people say a bit more.

As pertaining to the op, I disagree that the beginning is the most important part, unless by beginning you mean Orc:4/lair:8, which by then I would definitely agree it is very unwise to continue using chaos weapons, mostly because a shortsword/dagger of elec/vampire/distortion/other is likely to have appeared by then. However, I do think it can easily be argued that chaos weapons are far less than optimal, but they are fun and they make you rethink the game, and is that not the purpose of xom?

Even if they are so completely unusable that you uber pro-ski elites refuse to dirty your hands with them, dropping the weapon the moment you find something more appealing(which does not take that long btw) is always an option.

[Sandman25]

I have just tried 3 MUCK "stabbers" (chaos short sword, 66% short swords, 33% stealth) and it worked quite well early game. Best attempt ended on D5: 2 deaths to Grinder, one to Sigmund. One of those deaths was completely avoidable. I am not sure how it would work in Lair as stealth was too low for reliable stabs.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Except in practice Xom does that maybe one time every thousand games. Except in practice Xom doesn't act multiple times every single fight or somehow makes your actions unreliable by making the buttons that normally kill enemies have random effects like paralysis, berserk or poly self.

And the chaos brand has killed me even less than Xom has in the early game. We could argue anecdotal evidence all day, however.

But yes, it's rare, but Xom can still kill you at any point in the very early game if he is so inclined. And since Crawl is a game where surviving a mere 99% of your encounters means you'll be dead before Lair, that's not considered reliable.

And what I mean by that is if your play style does not keep your odds as favorable as possible (like, ridiculously favorable), you have a high chance of getting killed before winning. Xom inherently makes things a bit riskier, which since death in Crawl follows the law of increasing returns the more random things get, that makes Xom a bad choice for trying to win. (Outside of, again, challenge builds.)


Also mind, not every background and species is meant to be perfectly balanced with each other. Some are meant to be easier, some are meant to be challenge builds. Chaos Knight is a challenge build.

[Tiktacy]

I have just tried 3 MUCK "stabbers" (chaos short sword, 66% short swords, 33% stealth) and it worked quite well early game. Best attempt ended on D5: 2 deaths to Grinder, one to Sigmund. One of those deaths was completely avoidable. I am not sure how it would work in Lair as stealth was too low for reliable stabs.

I usually do 50/50 since you start out with a bit of shortblade skill. I usually just kill hydras like any other character(using wands) or sleep stabs, other than that mummies don't have as much to fear in lair since they are immune to poison. Getting a either a better branded short blade or a spellbook(or maybe get super lucky with wands) is definitely a requirement to get through lair though.

All that aside, I don't think this needs further discussion, the only thing I'm reading(as pertaining to the OP) is people either A) saying how bad chaos brand is or B) saying how much better a +2 weapon is. I for one, find the notion if trying to improve an already very winnable challenge class because it starts with marginally "worse" equipment to be completely absurd.

Why are we even discussing this?

[Kate]

Tiktacy/Sandman25/anyone else responding to off-topic stuff: take your discussion on the viability of CK stabbing to a different thread, thanks.

[dpeg]

MarvinPA: I'll also be slightly off-topic, but what would you think of having CK starting with an ego-less weapon, but have high chances for random branding. This branding should be random, somehow converging to chaos. (I can procure a formula if desired.)

Here's the off-topic bit: back when I once more discussed Xom with jpeg, we agreed that the god should have strong gifts, rather early. Of course, both "early" and "gift" would be random, but Xom players should feel like they're in a lottery which does produces really good stuff at times. (My ideal version of Xom is this: you get tactical effects --this is what tension was intented for, by zooko-- and these should generally help you; and you get strategical effects; again, these should more often help you; the god should rather early dish out a tempting cool thing, that's the gift I spoke about. Such a gift could be a set of mutations, an actual item, an ally, experience and perhaps a few more.)

[rchandra]

(My ideal version of Xom is this: you get tactical effects --this is what tension was intented for, by zooko-- and these should generally help you; and you get strategical effects; again, these should more often help you; the god should rather early dish out a tempting cool thing, that's the gift I spoke about. Such a gift could be a set of mutations, an actual item, an ally, experience and perhaps a few more.)

I feel that Xom succeeds in the tactical lottery for sure - potion effects, mass confusion, demonic horde, etc. He can give good strategic effects too (gold acquirement, very occasionally something like a rod, or see giantspikedclub for a MuCKscumming game), and very often gives good mutations (though those change a lot so it's hard to, for example, go without your rF ring due to having rF mutation).