Improving Pan and the Hells

[wizzzargh]

I think Pan has a great (interesting) monster set. What's wrong with demons exactly?

The problem is that for 10 (9 if Abyss gets rid of its demons) of the 15 runes, it's nothing but demon bashing. Demons are interesting because they do comparatively unique things compared to Dungeon monsters, but at the bare minimum you're going to end up slogging through 33 levels of demons, demons, and more demons. I'm tired of Orcs after 4 levels of the Mines- with a minimum 33 levels of demons required for 15 runes, it's no wonder that so many Greatplayers™ who are perfectly capable of 15 runing every character they get to Zot still prefer to win with 3-5 runes and start a fresh game, because getting those last runes is just a matter of going through the motions.

I mean, imagine if, instead of Pan+Hell existing, instead Crypt was 30 levels deep and had a rune every 3 levels. It doesn't matter how good the new crypt layout and monsters are- the area would become overused and people would get tired of fighting undead for so many levels. The same applies to demons- they may be great, versatile enemies, but there's no break in fighting them except for Holy Pan.

[Sandman25]

I am not sure it is all demons. There are Ice Dragons in Cocytus, different dragons/golems in Dis and also I think there is big difference between Executioner and Shadow Fiend, for example. I think it is as fair to speak of 33 levels of demons as of 50 levels of natural monsters in D/Lair/Vaults/Lair branches.

[nicolae]

I think what Pan needs is its own distinct monster set, one which isn't predominantly demonic.

Pandemonium is the place of demons, though. It's right there in the name!

It might be useful to perhaps differentiate Hell demons and Pan demons somehow, though.

[wizzzargh]

I am not sure it is all demons. There are Ice Dragons in Cocytus, different dragons/golems in Dis and also I think there is big difference between Executioner and Shadow Fiend, for example. I think it is as fair to speak of 33 levels of demons as of 50 levels of natural monsters in D/Lair/Vaults/Lair branches.

That's a good point, Hell does have a bit more variety than I was giving it credit for. A shame that the best way to deal with hell is to experience as little of it as possible, due to the uglyness of Hell Effects.

On the other hand, the difference between Executioner and Shadow fiend is diminished by the power level of the character. The "50 Levels of Natural Monsters" remain interesting because of how different characters respond to it. A Fire Elementalist has a very different experience in Shoals than they do in Lair- Sticky Flame has lost much of it's usefulness due to water, making too much noise can draw a horrendous amount of fast enemies to your location, and suddenly there are steam clouds EVERYWHERE. The approach of the character must shift dramatically over the course of the 50 natural levels.

However, by the time that same Fire Elementalist character is able to challenge the demonic areas, almost everything falls into the category of "Kill it with Firestorm." Even though, as you say, Executioners and Shadow Fiends are very different, the reaction to them is never really changes throughout the collection of those 9 runes. In the dungeon, your strategy and character are constantly adapting to circumstance. In the 33 levels of demons, your character remains relatively stable throughout- whether chopping away with a Holy Weapon, blasting the demons with a big spell, and/or stealthily ninjaing runes- you are going to be doing the same thing on the last level of Pan as you were on the first level.

Y'know, maybe it's not the 33 levels of demons that's really the problem. Maybe it's just that, during the experience of those 33 levels, the character has plateaued. Increasing skills is more a matter of convenience than necessity, loot is at best a slight numerical upgrade... I mean, finding a Ring of Invisibility or a Book is a big deal in the early game, but what's the equivalent once you've reached Pandemonium or Hell? What arouses excitement in the player at this point?

Maybe I'll go make a CYC thread about how the extradimensional levels should be like like the New Game+ of Crawl.

[Sandman25]

Yes, perhaps that's more problem of late game caster indeed. When you have cBlink/Fire Storm/Necromutation/Haste, there is very little decision making, you almost cannot die. Though the game is still not very easy for melee characters, even if it is a HEAE with longbow/triple sword/Tornado/Lightning Bolt.

[Sar]

Always found TSOdudes easier. Tabtabtab with occasional line of sight break, Cleansing Flame if surrounded, summons for bosses.

[and into]

Maybe I'll go make a CYC thread about how the extradimensional levels should be like like the New Game+ of Crawl.

This may be a radical idea, but one of the best-designed optional areas I've ever seen in an RPG is the ancient cave in Lufia II (old game I know). Now, how you implement something like that in Crawl would be very different, but I think the Hells in particular could have a somewhat similar mechanic. Out with hell effects, and instead have each Hell do a different crazy thing with your character temporarily. If you take a staircase up, you not only immediately exit Hell, but you also jump back to exactly how you were before you entered, no new items kept and no experience gained. But *while* you are in Tartarus (let's say) your character is set back to a much lower character and skill level, but Dis 1 only has weaker demons that ramp up slowly, and either experience gained is increased a lot (like Sprint) or else some number of experience potions are guaranteed to generate on each level. Things like all memory of spells above X level are lost while in one of the Hells (e.g., Dis) and you can only use high level spells that you find in books on the floor, but book drops are extremely common—however you have to find them first. Again, first level or two have pretty low to moderate threat level. Having one or two of the hells use this sort of "game within a game" mechanism that really pushes you outside of the comfort zone your character has established would be (IMO) lots of fun. Other Hells could just do things like greatly limiting or depriving you of God abilities (except perhaps Zin, whose specialty in part is providing assistance even in the Hells).

But, just in general, I'd like to see bolder experiments with what happens in Hell. You gotta blow the horn and do all that stuff, it builds up the anticipation, but then what is actually all that unique? Hell effects add a bit of scariness but are not very fun. I want to feel like my entire world and everything I had thought I could rely upon is being ripped from me when I step over the threshhold into Gehenna, for instance. That seems to fit Hell a lot better than "Occasionally you are randomly subjected to much the same threats* that you are already experiencing in this branch." *And the unique hell effect threats that you usually don't face, like random paralysis, are actually the *worst* designed, most unfair, and least fun.

In the abstract, with respect to design, I like "endless realm of demons" for Pan. I think more themed levels to break up monotony would be good, however. If you do that, and then also increased zigg generation and depressed the price of entry as you collect more Pan runes, just to cut down on the mindless grinding, that would go a very long way toward making Pan a lot more fun for pretty much all of the people who end up spending a lot of time there, who exhibit some combination of 15-rune, zigg raiding, and "I really like this character and don't want to win with it yet" situations.


EDIT: Just to clarify, the Ancient Cave in Lufia II was an optional area that reset your characters back to level 1, without equipment (or only your most basic equipment), and reset spells etc., and then made you play what was essentially a pseudo-roguelike. After a certain depth in the cave (it had 99 levels!) you were guaranteed a chest with an item that let you opt out, bringing you back to exactly where and how you were before entering the cave. A few special items (in differently colored chests) could be taken out of and brought back into the ancient cave to give you a leg up, so generally you'd do a few runs without intention of going to bottom, but just to get some of the special ancient cave items. Once you beat the cave you got a bunch of great items for the regular game, but your character levels etc. still reset to how they were before. It was well designed because no amount of tedious RPG grinding to get risk-free high levels and great equipment could render the challenge trivial, and you had to make difficult strategic decisions as to which characters to bring, and so on. It was pretty great.

[wizzzargh]

If you take a staircase up, you not only immediately exit Hell, but you also jump back to exactly how you were before you entered, no new items kept and no experience gained. But *while* you are in Tartarus (let's say) your character is set back to a much lower character and skill level, but Dis 1 only has weaker demons that ramp up slowly, and either experience gained is increased a lot (like Sprint) or else some number of experience potions are guaranteed to generate on each level. Things like all memory of spells above X level are lost while in one of the Hells (e.g., Dis) and you can only use high level spells that you find in books on the floor, but book drops are extremely common—however you have to find them first. Again, first level or two have pretty low to moderate threat level. Having one or two of the hells use this sort of "game within a game" mechanism that really pushes you outside of the comfort zone your character has established would be (IMO) lots of fun. Other Hells could just do things like greatly limiting or depriving you of God abilities (except perhaps Zin, whose specialty in part is providing assistance even in the Hells).

This is a bold idea, but I think it's very interesting. I'm not sure about making it strictly an exercise in just working your way back up from weak to strong again, but I like the idea of "rebuilding" under extreme pressure. I wouldn't want to have a smooth progression of Imps->Iron Devils->Iron Dragons. I think it could be more interesting to weaken the character a frightening amount, then have them face something terrifying like a Hell Sentinel guarding needed items(like potions of XP) without access to all the normal tools.

Maybe a massive Drain applied could be an easy way of simulating the depowering effects of Hell?

[and into]

This is a bold idea, but I think it's very interesting. I'm not sure about making it strictly an exercise in just working your way back up from weak to strong again, but I like the idea of "rebuilding" under extreme pressure. I wouldn't want to have a smooth progression of Imps->Iron Devils->Iron Dragons. I think it could be more interesting to weaken the character a frightening amount, then have them face something terrifying like a Hell Sentinel guarding needed items(like potions of XP) without access to all the normal tools.

Maybe a massive Drain applied could be an easy way of simulating the depowering effects of Hell?

Oh absolutely, it should be tough, I just meant that certain measures would have to be taken to ensure that you aren't dropped into Dis 1 at (the equivalent of) character level 15 or something, with enemies capable of one-shotting you right there. But yes it should be a challenge, and not one that scrupulous preparation beforehand can reduce to "mostly tedious, and only very occasionally frightening."

Sandman25 asked precisely the right question. How do you present a legitimate challenge to a level 27, well-built, non-challenge or variant character that has had some decent luck with loot over the course of the standard game? You change the parameters—to some degree or another, you take away their items, take away their levels, take away their skills, and so on. As far as I can tell, the only way to do that in a manner fitting with DCSS philosophy, however, is
1.) do not take all of them away, and do not take any one of them away entirely (otherwise how they built their character to begin with doesn't matter, which would be bad)
2.) you do not take any of those things away permanently, but only for the period during which the character is in the Hell branch

[and into]

Pardon the double post, but wanted to throw a few concrete ideas out there that were inspired by wizzzargh's "New Game +" comparison. Possible new Hell challenges that would revert completely upon exiting follow. I think these could either replace hell effects, or could be implemented as an additional challenge if Hell effects are substantially revised.

(Namely: some of the hell effects removed, the rest happen less frequently for the most part, and slowly amplify in intensity and frequency the longer you are in the Hell branch; red messages can describe the evil environment becoming progressively more aware of you and throwing greater obstacles in your path to make transparent the fact that yes, the hell effects are getting progressively scarier, it isn't just your imagination or bad luck. Kind of like an OoD timer for the entire branch, on steroids. This keeps the sense of urgency and the "dive or die!" feel, but removes the annoyance factor—the effects scale up to a point where, if you don't hurry, they *will* matter, regardless of how buff your character is. This is a lot better than current implementation, where supposedly Hell effects are intended to "keep you from resting," but in reality, >90% of the time they only serve to make resting a hell of a lot (hurr) more annoying.)

Anyway: These could either be rotating—each Hell branch gets a different, randomly determined global effect—or static (specific ones assigned to each Hell branch across every game). Either form of implementation could work, though I like rotating a lot more.

Some of these are much more cruel than others, and exactly how hard they hit you will depend a lot on your particular species and build. Given that there will be at least four of them to experience, and Hells are completely optional, I think that's a completely fine—in fact, I think it is a good thing, as it adds a lot of variability and deepens the strategic considerations.


1.) "Asmodeus [/whoever] shall cut down the mighty, and keep the meek servile."

Perma-drain on your skills (so long as you remain in this branch of hell), and character level shaved, both by a proportional amount. Should be calibrated so that higher level characters are hit especially hard, though not so much so that going in at a lower level gets better final results. Relatively low level characters are hardly affected at all. So, going in with skills in the mid- to late teens and at character level 18 or 19, you barely notice the effect—but then again, you are at level 19 so it is going to be a challenge anyway.


2.) "Asmodeus [/whoever] despises your vain ornaments."

Jewelry locked. (For Octopodes: Your amulet and the two bottom-most rings on your inventory screen are locked.) Those slots become unavailable, any jewelry you were wearing is unequipped and kept in your inventory.


3.) "Asmodeus [/whoever] strips you of your protective vestments."

All armor for your torso slot in your inventory is left behind (on staircase into the Hell branch). However, you can put on any armor you find. [To clarify: You keep gloves, hat, etc., but all pieces of armor for your torso that you have in your inventory are left behind.] [Armor generation can be increased for the branch when this is in effect, if it is otherwise deemed too harsh.]


4.) "Asmodeus [/whoever] bids farewell to your arms."

All weapons in your inventory are left behind (on staircase into the Hell branch). However, you can wield and use any weapon(s) you find in the Hell branch. [If you like, the chance for weapon generation can be increased for the branch when this effect is in play. — You probably won't have to go *too* long without a suitable weapon, but you aren't likely to find a great weapon and will have to make do as best you can.]


5.) "Asmodeus [/whoever] scorns your pompous erudition."

Spells above level 5 forgotten upon entrance. (Upon exiting, your spell selection reverts back to normal, of course.) Any books you were carrying are left behind on the staircase into this hell branch. But of course, you can use any spell slots freed up on books you find in the Hell branch.


6.) "Asmodeus [/whoever] does not allow divine meddling in his realm. Your god cannot help you here!"

You are an atheist while in this Hell branch. Your piety does not drain during your stay in the Hell branch and, upon exiting, is reverted back to what it was before. Items that were bestowed as god gifts can still be used, however.


7.) "Asmodeus [/whoever] allows no rest for the righteous."

Slow healing 3 while in branch. (That is, no natural health regeneration. Restorative items and abilities (including Trog's Hand) still work.)


8.) "Asmodeus [/whoever] cannot countenance any kind of self-improvement."

All spells, effects, abilities, etc. that buff your character cannot be used. (Restorative items like !Healing, restore abilities, heal wounds, etc. are all fine, as are teleport and the like, but all charms, some hexes (like invisibility, sure blade, darkness), potions of might, finesse, etc., have no effect.) *Passive* divine buffs (like Chei's stat support) are still in effect, however. You gain no experience while in this branch of Hell—not allowed to improve yourself, after all. (However, perhaps you get a potion of experience or two as guaranteed loot at the end of this Hell branch.)


EDIT: Oh yeah—for the above to work, all items generated in Hell (regardless of the global effect they have in operation) get a special inscription and a special (invisible, unalterable) flag that prevents you from taking them outside of Hell. As you go up the staircase to escape, you get a message like "Asmodeus [/whoever] will not allow you to take valuables out of his domain!" However, all the items that are blocked from exiting in this manner will be kept in a pile next to the staircase on level one of that hell branch, so you can have them available again immediately upon reentry to that branch. Once you get the rune, you've robbed the hell lord of his power—not only does the –cTele effect on Hell 7 cease, but you are free to take any items generated in that branch of Hell with you into the main dungeon.

[An alternative would be to make it so that you can steal the rune and exit with it, without having to kill the Hell lord—but you can only take items generated in that branch of Hell if you do actually manage to kill (or banish?) the Hell lord of that branch. — It might be nice to provide a small but non-zero reward / incentive for killing the Hell lords, other than just bragging rights.]

[1010011010]

How about specific skill drain to compliment each of the 4 hells

Dis -land of defence -weapon skill drain
Gehenna -volatile environment -controlling magic skills drain (Earth, Ice, Charms, Necro, Summon, tMut)
Cocytus -stable environment -disordered magic skill drain (Air, Fire, Hexes, Poison, Conjuration, tLoc)
Tartarus -land of the rotting -reduced max HP (alternatly, defensive skill drain)

Each effect can increases with level, time (increase the race aspect), or just remain a constant and let the 7 levels get progressively harder, but is recovered when leaving the branch

I also think the monster list could do with a bit of a revamp since currently each branch has some fodder undead and some demons.

I don't like how empty Hell is and since it's Hell surely there should be some suffering souls locked in Hell.
Four more derived undead monster types, each reflecting a hell: freezing, flaming, putrid and spiked souls, replacing all current undead in Hell.
Each one offers different speeds, defences, offensives, attack brands, and vulnerabilities.
These monsters are derived from natural, human level intelligent monsters with HD increasing with depth, this including defeated uniques.

It might seem boring to have only one type of undead for each branch, but each would exclusive to the branch (differentiating Hell and Pan) and Hell is a race so you shouldn't be fighting them too long.

[Wahaha]

The Hells are a significant challenge for most level 27 characters actually.
edit: but making that challenge less tedious is a good idea. Reducing skill levels is a pretty bad idea by the way.

[wizzzargh]

I just wanted to bump this thread with the idea that maybe some of these weird levels could work in Dungeon too

A quiet, foggy level where any noise will bring monsters rushing up to you, levels where the walls are all doors or grates, levels flooded by water or liquefaction save for a few 'safe' squares... They could make for interesting situations that would spice up Dungeon and Depths, perhaps even Zot? Though the more vicious ideas like wandering Twisters, Silence, acid walls, and And Into's neat Hell Effects are probably too brutal for anywhere but postendgame.

[Aethrus]

Hell --

My thought on Hell reform is to whiff out most of the chaff and popcorn monsters and introduce more tightly designed layouts with vaults built to create interesting, challenging, semi-random challenges, particularly around stairways to next floors or spawns from previous floors.

Hell forces players to repeatedly enter new, very dangerous areas with the danger mitigation tool of stairdancing unavailable. Pandemonium does as well, but not as rapidly. You hope you wont have to dive 28 floors of Pan as well as Hell. Would be interesting to better utilize this element of the area. It would also make Hell feel more like a hostile fortress fighting back against the player than passive-aggressive like it is on floors 1-6.

Pandemonium--

Pandemonium I don't have any especially fleshed out ideas for. More unique special floors seems like it would break up a lot of the tedium, but it feels like a band-aid on aa sleeper problem with the realm's randomness and inability to control where you end up. Increasing variance would also mean characters need to be prepared for yet more possible scenarios to safely step in. A character now needs to be ready for the demons, holy pan and all 4 unique lords, else risk running into the one they're not ready for. Especially damning in the case of the 4 unique lords who have only 1 chance at their floors.

I think giving the player the ability to peer into gates to further Pandemonium realms with hints as to their make-up would be a solution I'd like. Each down portal would say something like (demon-infested, mutagenic, gelid, holy fortress, groovy, etc.) With a vague theme applied to it, and Pan Lord floors having an explicit (you sense the presence of a *xxx* rune) message. Players looking to rush for the runes can explicitly seek out their portals, while those who are looking to pick out a specific couple while maybe not confident in their ability to handle Cerebov yet can put him off without having to write the whole branch off.