Branch ends and their rewards

[Yet Another Stupid Noob]

So if one aspect of the problem is that poison resistance is very useful (arguably nearly criticical at certain times/branches) and then less so as the game progresses, why not add potions of cure poison.

Potion: Removes all existing poison and makes the drinker immune to poison for a short while. I think that 20-30 turns (actions) is about right. Enough time to take care of the immediate threat and not much more.

This potion has similar utility as healing potions (and should take some of those drop "slots") and remains useful for about as long. Once past orc/lair, the amount of poison being slung around (both offensively and defensively) drops noticably. This potion acts to make managable those few encounters where rpois changes the battle from "deadly" to "trivial" (and I'm looking at you transmuter ghosts). You use these potions like a wand; to act as a tempory bridge over a difficult encounter.

I don't think such a potion would be an interesting addition to the game. Currently, the player has to face the choice between spending a potion of healing to cure poison or to try to sit it out and save the potion for hp restoration at some later point. Of course, the potion of healing only cures a comparatively small amount of hit points but at the time where poison poses a large problem this amount is still highly relevant. It actually gets worse if the proposed potion both cures poison and confers temporary poison resistance because that reduces the usual trade-off to the normal "use now or save until much later" decision that applies to all potions. If an item only cures the effect (as healing does) it's in the player's interest to delay using it as much as possible, at the very least until the threat is eliminated, while at the same time doing so will make you rapidly lose hit points; conversely, an item that only provides in-advance resistance (such as the potion of resistance) needs to be used before the effect actually comes up. In both cases, the player has to weigh the chances and make a decision based on the situation.

I could see the addition of an early-game, more common version of the potion of resistance that only applies to poison. It would lose its usefulness at some point (but so do a number of wands), so there'd be some incentive for the player to use them early on. However, as long as they're not too common, using them wouldn't be a no-brainer either. For example, players might want to save them for the Lair and its poisonous sub branches, or the Hive (especially once the planned overhaul goes through).

Potions of healing are useful for a lot more than just poison; generally I will save them for the much more dangerous status effects (rot, confusion, etc). If a potion of resist poison cures poison and lasts for 30 turns, or just grants immunity but lasts for 300 turns, I think the effect is about the same. Personally I feel that both of them would be a balanced addition to the game (with a drop rate similar to heal wounds potions), and either one is better than adding a rotting intrinsic drop to specific monsters.

[galehar]

Personally I feel that both of them would be a balanced addition to the game (with a drop rate similar to heal wounds potions), and either one is better than adding a rotting intrinsic drop to specific monsters.

What's wrong with the spider eggs? The only argument against so far is "it's different/new" (which isn't a good argument at all).

[Galefury]

Spider eggs or similar things might seem gimmicky to some people. Branch specific features work fine for Shoals and Slime though, so I don't think this is a big problem.

About rP potions: with a D:14 rune lock people would have to hoard those potions in case they don't find rP and get two poisonous lair branches. And if they do find rP those hoarded potions are suddenly useless. Also I found healing potions good enough for dealing with poison outside of poison-heavy branches. Of course mephcloud/evap ghosts are an exception, but those are not that frequent (compared to the guaranteed 1+ poisonous branches in every lair). Also I think those should be dealt with in a different way. Making MC/evap more resistable (possibly depending on power) or preventing those spells from being spammed by monsters should do the trick.

One thing that could be done with potions are potion stash vaults in the relevant branches (someone exploring the branch left them there), or even a rare vault with a skeleton with one piece of rP equipment or a book with cure poison in it. A potion stash could be very likely or even guaranteed to spawn somewhere in the first few levels of the branch. I think this would lead to less interesting gameplay than a rotting rP drop (carefully trying to find the stash, possibly with mapping, then resource management, fairly similar to most other areas in crawl, instead of rushing forward to kill monsters to extend rP), but it has the advantage of not relying on branch-specific mechanics. Randomly spawning a lot of rP potions in poison branches instead of giving a bunch at a time in specific vaults would just seem weird. If stuff that helps the player is very likely to spawn in a situation where he really needs it there has to be decent flavor that explains it.

Of course different things can be done for different branches. More and earlier swamp dragons in swamp sounds fine for example. Maybe just add rare swamp dragons in deep lair? For many chars early swamp dragon armour is really good, and swamp dragons are pretty dangerous without rP, so this is probably a bad idea. Simply making rP equipment and the cure poison spell more common in early dungeon and lair via vaults (while also making rP only 90% effective) could work though. Not exactly my favorite solution, but one that doesn't require any new game mechanics.

Edit: usually I do have rP by the end of lair, so maybe this rP thing is being blown out of proportion.

[mumra]

Spider eggs or similar things might seem gimmicky to some people. Branch specific features work fine for Shoals and Slime though, so I don't think this is a big problem.

Not to mention Royal Jelly, which is just repeating a potion effect, but packaging it as a foodstuff.

[Yet Another Stupid Noob]

Personally I feel that both of them would be a balanced addition to the game (with a drop rate similar to heal wounds potions), and either one is better than adding a rotting intrinsic drop to specific monsters.

What's wrong with the spider eggs? The only argument against so far is "it's different/new" (which isn't a good argument at all).

To start with, I did not mean to insult your idea. I have nothing but respect and thanks for the people who do hard work to design and code this great game (and even more thanks for the developers who actually come and discuss ideas here).

But there are 4 things about this I don't like:
1) It seems kinda gimmicky. Although there are some hide intrinsic drops, in no place is there a monster added to specifically counter the flavor of a zone. Adding spiders eggs as permafood that you find in the dungon (with a slightly higher chance in lair, etc) is fine. In some ways it is better than adding potions of poison resistance in terms of "flavor". However, making them drop from certain monsters gives a precident for similar effects elsewhere, and may be the first step down a slippery slope that leads to ice crystals (rcold) in Tartius, or kelp bubbles (underwater breathing) in Shoals. This is not inherently a bad idea, but it will mean less variablity in the dungeon.

2) I think that decaying like chunks is a bad idea becuse it encourages players (especially early players) to "hurry" because they don't want thier buffs to run out. Forcing speed in the extended endgame (hells) works because players have had a chance to develop tactical options, and in fact can skip it entirely. In the early game however, you will be "forcing" them to hurry or else they will lose a needed resistance. Since this occurs when they are on the way to pick up their first rune (and potentially before they can enter level 15) it incoculates bad habits and makes an already tough game harder.

3) Rotting eggs also takes away from player choice. When the item drops, they have to eat is right away (or very soon). You have changed it from a tactial choice (drinking/eating a resist poison item you have) to having to trust that the eggs will show up. Hope is not a course of action that is rewarded in Crawl.
This is made worse because different players have rather different play speeds and one person's too fast is another player's too slow. This difference makes it very hard to tweak the drop rate so that everyone gets roughly enough. (Not only that, but the new player, who rests with 5 often, will have it worse off).

4) Following on from this point is the spacing issue. Right now the branches that have poisonous monsters are lair, hive, snake, swamp and spider lair. If you put the eggs in spider lair and swamp, you have effictivly just made them non-poisonous, or worse, widly varying in poison (based on egg dropping monster density). The underlying problem is the resist poison is (nearly) critical in some areas and (often) useless in others. Putting eggs in certain areas does not fix that problem, it just shifts it to a different area.

[galehar]

It's not even my idea, I think it was Galefury's. Anyway, I like it and support it.

1) It doesn't look like a slippery slope to me, I have no intention of generalising it.
2) If it takes as much time as a chunk to rot, you'll have plenty of time to rest to full HP/MP and find another fight before it rots. The point is to prevent the player from hoarding them or carrying them to another branch, not to force dangerous behaviours like exploring wounded. And I think it should last more than a chunk anyway.
3) It's not meant to be a global solution. Poison is already a very common threat in the mid-game and we're about to add a new branch full of poisonous spiders. This idea is to make rP less critical for this branch. It's useful to have, but you can do the branch without it. It's just a matter of balancing the drops. If they are a bit rare but last long enough, you have to choose when to use them.

[Yet Another Stupid Noob]

Spider eggs or similar things might seem gimmicky to some people. Branch specific features work fine for Shoals and Slime though, so I don't think this is a big problem.

I think this is called "flavor" and I approve of it.

About rP potions: with a D:14 rune lock people would have to hoard those potions in case they don't find rP and get two poisonous lair branches. And if they do find rP those hoarded potions are suddenly useless. Also I found healing potions good enough for dealing with poison outside of poison-heavy branches. Of course mephcloud/evap ghosts are an exception, but those are not that frequent (compared to the guaranteed 1+ poisonous branches in every lair). Also I think those should be dealt with in a different way. Making MC/evap more resistable (possibly depending on power) or preventing those spells from being spammed by monsters should do the trick.

Well, hoarding potions is one thing, but if I had a bunch of rPois potions saved up for a lair ending, and I suddenly found a ring of rPois I would not be upset.

Potions are not so common that you can keep them up all of the time, a ring can. Plus if I don't use them in a branch end, I can keep em around for Sonja or some such and can swap out of said ring for something else that much sooner.

I liken a potion(egg) of rpois to a wand of frost. It is very useful in some circumstances early. Once you get a reliable alternative, it becomes much less useful, and by the end game it is not worth picking up.

Plus it would be really funny to watch an ogre down a potion of resist poison before fighting an early mage.

I really have no strong feeling in this. It is kinda like peanut versus plain M&Ms, just because you like one flavor more does not mean either is bad.

[bobross419]

Plus it would be really funny to watch an ogre down a potion of resist poison before fighting an early mage.

I really have no strong feeling in this. It is kinda like peanut versus plain M&Ms, just because you like one flavor more does not mean either is bad.

I had no strong feelings about this myself until this statement lol.

The egg sac idea could have the side effect of setting a precedent. Players may start asking for Ghost turds that give rN and Elf Gonads that give MR, etc. - Not arguing against the idea, just pointing out a possible side effect good/bad.

I do agree that these items should be introduced before the branch that requires them though.

[mumra]

I think items will only ever be added to the game if they add something interesting and pointful. Ghost turds / ice crystals / kelp bubbles are all clearly ridiculous sounding. There already exists a precedent in royal jellies - in what way are spider eggs any more silly than that?

[bobross419]

Royal Jelly are a bit different...

I wasn't arguing against the idea, just pointing out a possible side effect. Sure the examples I gave were completely stupid sounding, but that wasn't the point. I'm sure someone that really wanted "Ghost Turds" implemented would put some serious thought into the thematic reasoning.

[KoboldLord]

I don't have anything specific against spider eggs, but I don't think they're really necessary. If players don't want to risk being forced to enter Swamp/Snake/Spider without a way to deal with poison attacks, they should start training a ranged attack before they run out of alternate areas to train in. Black mambas aren't so bad if you can simply mow them all down with a crossbow before they get to you. Probably you'll run out of healing potions by the end of the branch, but that's what they exist for.

As an additional alternative, the Abyss is accessible through Elf, and there's a pre-lock Rune available there, too. Most of the monsters there aren't any worse than Vaults anyway, and the terrain is more favorable since there's more cover to hide behind.

[mattlistener]

I'm curious to know, 5 years on, what came of these matters. (Consumable rPois, lootless Lair branch ends.)

I mean, clearly spider eggs did not make it into the game, but why is that? Was something else done instead?

I found the thread while looking for info about branch-ends, having fought an epic campaign to reach the Serpentine Rune and being disappointed to find no other reward.

[chequers]

The reward for getting to the bottom of a rune branch is getting a rune.

I think the amount of loot in a game has remained about the same. Perhaps it slightly decreased with the evocable zig changes.

[KoboldLord]

I'm curious to know, 5 years on, what came of these matters. (Consumable rPois, lootless Lair branch ends.)

I mean, clearly spider eggs did not make it into the game, but why is that? Was something else done instead?

I found the thread while looking for info about branch-ends, having fought an epic campaign to reach the Serpentine Rune and being disappointed to find no other reward.

The rPois issue was fixed by adding a bunch of things to each Lair branch that don't care about rPois. Possibly the most dangerous generic monster in Snake, for instance, just shoots you with its crossbow repeatedly.

Still no reason for Shoals to have end vault loot, other than to trick the player into continuing to poke around down there after finding the Rune.

In the end, the Rune lock on Vaults did go in, and the lower Dungeon turned into Depths which is incredibly more dangerous than what the lower Dungeon was at the time this thread started, so you roll with whatever Lair branches you get regardless of your rPois status because all available alternatives are insane. And hey, constant poison isn't so bad, not compared to what else can happen to you in the Lair branches these days.