New hosted branch: Basajaun species and High Elf removal

[kimnosuk]

What if we give BA an innate ability "Raise Fur"?

Some animals swell their body to frighten others, I think it can be applied to new species - big and furry(fur to sanding on end)

It causes very short fear, for 2~3 turns, only to less intelligent monsters.

It can be used as kiting skills for early game, but not gives very nice survivability(because turns are too short).

if player wants to get away with fear, they should use 'cause fear'.

[goodcoolguy]

Won one. IMO, as is they're not different enough to warrant a slot (this was the reason behind MD removal, yes?). I'd personally grant them the wild magic mutation, with upgrade to level 2 at xl14 and level 3 at xl21. This could make them interesting — most runs would never get to level 9 spells, forcing a different gameplay.

This were really the standard, there'd be like 10 species. And that would be good.

[Shard1697]

Why isn't FE a recommended start for Ba?

[jwoodward48ss]

Because TREES and fire don't go together?

[arandomperson12]

Because TREES and fire don't go together?

Decisions are not supposed to be made because of lore. Also, their fire aptitude is same as others.

[jwoodward48ss]

I know. I was guessing why [branch_dev] didn't do it.

[duvessa]

FE is a recommended background for Mu

[Shard1697]

I mean, Ba have (mostly)flat magic apts, so I don't see why any book background minus maybe VM should be not recommended.

[jwoodward48ss]

FE is a recommended background for Mu

So that they can get RoF, but Basa have the trees to worry about!

[Laraso]

Just won a BaFE today, the whole game felt like I was playing a human spellcaster that can't wear armor and has crap defense but a billion health. Felt like a pretty easy game overall, I don't really feel like they are lacking as far as power, but they don't really feel all that unique. That being said I really want to like them and some of the ideas in this thread seem to be going in the right direction, I personally liked the idea of a tree form with stat drain cost.

An idea that I had was that maybe they could get a root ability similar to the one that shambling mangroves get that ignores MR. Could get it at XL 7, induce exhaustion, and duration would increase slightly every 5 XL.

[araganzar]

Yet another lie of the kind notorious deep elf lickers are known to spread. I removed the gorgeous, golden elf hair tile myself, and I wept for hours afterwards.

I can attest that when I started a High Elf gamma asked if I could please take off my helmet so he could gaze on those flaxen locks one last time.

I think a high HP caster is sufficiently differentiated to make it more than an adequate replacement for high elves. Most people I talked to thought they could use a little more INT, other than that the apts seem okay. As FE I was able to train magic almost exclusively, HP are a lot more reliable as a defense than EV. Stopped yesterday afternoon on Zot 3 because I had Firestorm, LCS, 20 evoke and energy so I wasn't going to see or learn anything new.

The question is, is it sufficiently differentiated from other races? As it stands, it plays like any other low apt caster from Lair on. I'd like to see there being some different interaction with mp or spells (levels of innate wild magic at XL9, 15, 19 would be interesting, for example, or a channeling ability with drawbacks, or maybe they have a MR- or strip resists ability). Since this is designed as an almost purely casting race, I would think there would be something special about it's casting that makes it significantly different from a human spellcaster.

I'd like to see them further differentiated from Ogres by doing something with them being so shaggy. Yes, people will continue to think about this as Ogre Mages as long as the full implementation is "Big Race, Bad Defenses, OK at magic". Maybe they are like sasquatches and have feet too big for boots and bodies too big for normal armor but can wear gloves? Or eventual (with XL) native rC or GDR would be cool. Or ANYTHING to separate them thematically. You have this crazy, hairy, big forest man, he can't call a flock or use forest camouflage or I don't know, build menhirs? Or as hairy forest hermits, why not give them a good apt on staves? No one else but Mi is good at staves and you can make Crazy Yiuf a basajaun.

[dowan]

Nobody has mentioned the biggest stand out of HEs, their great stat progression, which in my mind is their defining factor. They're low hp gemigods who can worship a god!

Ogres, on the other hand, are crappy trolls with a weird high spellcasting apt.

So merge HE and DE if you must, but give them a stat every 3 levels!

[Rhandor]

A more interesting direction to go with a large race would be a race that can change sizes as an inherent ability at any time, between small to large. The changes shouldn't influence the armor they can wear, but should cause unequipping of inappropriate weapons and shields. Besides normal size benefits/penalties (like sneak and shield), the change could toggle an inherent bonus to either Strength or Dex that grows with XP level. You might also make speed changes, though that might unbalance them. Thus you could have a race that goes around stabbing the best they can until they get into real combat, then they can spend a turn hulking out. Or if things get hairy, they can shrink down before running away. It could be a simian themed race that goes from monkey to ape and back again.

[archaeo]

A more interesting direction to go with a large race would be a race that can change sizes as an inherent ability at any time, between small to large. The changes shouldn't influence the armor they can wear, but should cause unequipping of inappropriate weapons and shields. Besides normal size benefits/penalties (like sneak and shield), the change could toggle an inherent bonus to either Strength or Dex that grows with XP level. You might also make speed changes, though that might unbalance them. Thus you could have a race that goes around stabbing the best they can until they get into real combat, then they can spend a turn hulking out. Or if things get hairy, they can shrink down before running away. It could be a simian themed race that goes from monkey to ape and back again.

Welcome to the Tavern, Rhandor.

Changing size seems like a really complicate way to handle things, as it just impacts too many weird tangential mechanics. Also, Crawl already has a shape-shifting race that does exactly what you're suggesting! It's just that the way they change forms is by drinking potions of blood they've bottled, which isn't fun at all.

[tasonir]

I actually really like Basajaunak as is, to be honest. If you want to make them slightly further away from Ogres, why not just take their weapon skills down to -2 and give them +1 to most magic skills? Ones that are already +1 can go to +2, etc. I know only aptitudes isn't favored for differentiating species, but among the large races having +1 to magic schools is unique, and -2 maces will make it harder for people to pretend they're ogres.

[pubby]

wait

there was a chance to add a moon troll species for realsies but instead you went with bighobbits

what the fuck

just use minmay's moon troll design. it had djinn-style hp/mp sharing but NO fire resistance or any of that contam nonsense

[Sar]

as a bonus I'm pretty sure it will anger minmay as I remember him saying the proposal was a joke

[duvessa]

it didn't have hp/mp sharing and yes it was a joke

[Odds]

So, Deep Elf will join Deep Dwarf and Hill Orc as a species with a now-redundant distinguishing adjective. They are all pleasantly confusing - Hill Orcs have nothing to do with hills, and we'll have two species with adjective "Deep" which have nothing whatsoever in common.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Might just be nice to rename Hill Orc and Deep Elf to Orc and Elf, and then rename Deep Dwarf to Duergar?

[duvessa]

but HOCK and DECK are words and OrCK and ElCK are not

[dpeg]

So, Deep Elf will join Deep Dwarf and Hill Orc as a species with a now-redundant distinguishing adjective. They are all pleasantly confusing - Hill Orcs have nothing to do with hills, and we'll have two species with adjective "Deep" which have nothing whatsoever in common.

Hill Orcs were always called like this, and another orc player species existed.

Fun fact: monster orcs are "cave orcs", and if you like that sort of thing, their messiah being of a related, but slightly different sort is a fun historical nod.

[Shard1697]

but HOCK and DECK are words and OrCK and ElCK are not

Being able to play an Orc OrCK would be a fun name combo though

[duvessa]

OgRe was a million times better than that and it still got removed

[WingedEspeon]

High elves are already well differentiated IMMO by being the only normal sized race with -1 HP apt (Op does not count as normal sized) and by having extremely high stat gain. I would be sad to see them go. Not ever species needs a crazy gimmick to be around, sometimes filling a unique "difficulty setting" should be enough. I would rather see HO removed than HE as HO feels a bit redundant with Mi.

[Elitist]

So, Deep Elf will join Deep Dwarf and Hill Orc as a species with a now-redundant distinguishing adjective. They are all pleasantly confusing - Hill Orcs have nothing to do with hills, and we'll have two species with adjective "Deep" which have nothing whatsoever in common.

If it means anything, Deep Elf, Deep Dwarf, and Formicid all share Air as their lowest magic aptitude, and also have above-average evocation skills, if that all helps pull them together a bit. Deep Elves and Dwarfs also share the highest and second highest (tied) Necromancy aptitude in the game respectively, and also share the same stealth aptitude, which I assume is to imply their pigmentation is the same. Otherwise, yeah, what even is this game.

[TeshiAlair]

I'd second HO removal over HE. HO is a weird halfway point between HE and Mi in that they are good at melee but surprisingly good at being elementalists as well, and I personally think HE is a more interesting early hybridization species particularly with the slow exp but high stat gain.

[duvessa]

Why not remove both then?

[dowan]

Why remove both of them?

[Quazifuji]

Can we just clarify what size actually does in the first place? Because I feel it's a pretty opaque mechanic right now, and discussing whether High Elves being a medium race with -1 health apt or Basajaun being a big race with good spellcasting apts is interesting or not will be a lot easier if there's a clear understanding of what size means. As far as I can tell, these are the inherent differences between a big race and a medium race:

1. Big races have -2 EV.
   
2. Big races can't wear aux armor besides hats, or body armor besides robes or hide armors.
   
3. Big races can't use bucklers, but can use regular and large shields much more easily.
   
4. Big races can use giant (spiked) clubs and throw large rocks.
   
5. Big races get no penalty for fighting in shallow water.
   
6. Probably a bunch of little poilery things that 90% of players don't know exist and the other 10% don't really care about.

There's also a correlation between health aptitude and size, but that's not an inherent difference, since it still varies from race to race.

[Shard1697]

I have posted about it before, but I hate how the weapon restrictions for small races vary so much instead of just being 1 thing almost as much as I hate monster size

[CanOfWorms]

that was recently changed to be consistent

go forth and become the triple crossbow wielding spriggan sniper you were always destined to become!!!

[Shtopit]

Can we just clarify what size actually does in the first place? Because I feel it's a pretty opaque mechanic right now, and discussing whether High Elves being a medium race with -1 health apt or Basajaun being a big race with good spellcasting apts is interesting or not will be a lot easier if there's a clear understanding of what size means. As far as I can tell, these are the inherent differences between a big race and a medium race:

[list = 1]

[*] Big races have -2 EV.

[*] Big races can't wear aux armor besides hats, or body armor besides robes or hide armors.

[*] Big races can't use bucklers, but can use regular and large shields much more easily.

[*] Big races can use giant (spiked) clubs and throw large rocks.

[*] Big races get no penalty for fighting in shallow water.

[*] Probably a bunch of little poilery things that 90% of players don't know exist and the other 10% don't really care about.
[/list]

There's also a correlation between health aptitude and size, but that's not an inherent difference, since it still varies from race to race.

I think it's marginally different. First, there are no big player races, only large races. Big is one size larger.
Second, there are two kinds of large races: the group made up by ogres and trolls and the group made up by nagas and centaurs.
The first group has all the details you just said.
The second group can use "normal" armour, can't use oversized weapons, but has most of the other special details.
Both groups need only 15 Shields to stop the penalties caused by large shields, but the second group also only needs 3 Shields for bucklers. Size also is relevant for constriction.

[Quazifuji]

I think it's marginally different. First, there are no big player races, only large races. Big is one size larger.

I was intending to use "big" as a plain English word, not a game term. On that note, who the hell thought it made sense to make "big" the size above "large" in game? They're complete synonyms. I don't think there's even a difference in connotation between them besides "large" maybe being a bit more formal. (The same could also be said of "small" and "little".)

Second, there are two kinds of large races: the group made up by ogres and trolls and the group made up by nagas and centaurs.
The first group has all the details you just said.
The second group can use "normal" armour, can't use oversized weapons, but has most of the other special details.
Both groups need only 15 Shields to stop the penalties caused by large shields, but the second group also only needs 3 Shields for bucklers. Size also is relevant for constriction.

True, I was thinking of the "ogres and trolls" category because that's the one relevant to Basajaun.

Constriction falls in the "little spoilery things" category for me.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Constriction falls in the "little spoilery things" category for me.

Yes, I don't see why devs display monster size, it is info noise. All players need to know is if the monster can walk into deep water, be constricted/constrict PC and is immune to nets.

[WTV]

The name is unfortunate. It's not evocative. Every other racial name in the game is either a generic fantasy trope, fairly well known mythological beast, descriptive (Vine Stalker) or can be worked out / parsed from common Latin roots (felid < feline). Why not straight up have them be Sasquatches or Woodwose (though Woodwose does not communicate large size) or Titans (who in mythology were huge but intelligent)?

[Quazifuji]

The name is unfortunate. It's not evocative. Every other racial name in the game is either a generic fantasy trope, fairly well known mythological beast, descriptive (Vine Stalker) or can be worked out / parsed from common Latin roots (felid < feline). Why not straight up have them be Sasquatches or Woodwose (though Woodwose does not communicate large size) or Titans (who in mythology were huge but intelligent)?

"Woodwose" is still pretty obscure, I think, and titans are already in-game, and while they work flavor-wise for a large caster, I don't think we want to make a "giant" player race and it would be inconsistent from player titan to be merely "large" while enemy titans are "giant".

That said, I agree with the basic idea of what you're saying. While DCSS loves drawing from obscure mythical beings, it usually does so with enemies, not player races.

[Shard1697]

The name is unfortunate. It's not evocative. Every other racial name in the game is either a generic fantasy trope, fairly well known mythological beast, descriptive (Vine Stalker) or can be worked out / parsed from common Latin roots (felid < feline). Why not straight up have them be Sasquatches or Woodwose (though Woodwose does not communicate large size) or Titans (who in mythology were huge but intelligent)?

"Woodwose" is still pretty obscure, I think, and titans are already in-game, and while they work flavor-wise for a large caster, I don't think we want to make a "giant" player race and it would be inconsistent from player titan to be merely "large" while enemy titans are "giant".

If monster size is removed/flattened this wouldn't be a problem.

[Shtopit]

I'd second HO removal over HE. HO is a weird halfway point between HE and Mi in that they are good at melee but surprisingly good at being elementalists as well, and I personally think HE is a more interesting early hybridization species particularly with the slow exp but high stat gain.

That's interesting, I'd rather remove Mi because it's a one-track species.

Large spellcasters? Mhm... I can't think of anything right now. Cyclops created thunderbolts for Zeus, if that helps.

If Basajaun can use large weapons too, can we expand them to formicids? It's not an ogre thing anymore, and it would make having a shield or not a tactical decision for formicids, who also would really not become OP.

[WTV]

cyclops of Ru -> sac eye -> reduce LOS to 0, you are now ultimate stabber

[pubby]

If Basajaun can use large weapons too, can we expand them to formicids? It's not an ogre thing anymore, and it would make having a shield or not a tactical decision for formicids, who also would really not become OP.

What a clever idea. Please implement this.

[Quazifuji]

Formicids could use large weapons when they were first added to Trunk, I believe. I don't remember if they could use them with shields or not, or exactly why it was removed.

Also, large weapons already aren't ogre-exclusive, trolls can use them too.

[tabstorm]

Formicids could use large weapons when they were first added to Trunk, I believe. I don't remember if they could use them with shields or not, or exactly why it was removed.

Also, large weapons already aren't ogre-exclusive, trolls can use them too.

It infringed on the design space of Ogres. Ogres are very territorial.

[Elitist]

Formicids could use large weapons when they were first added to Trunk, I believe. I don't remember if they could use them with shields or not, or exactly why it was removed.

Also, large weapons already aren't ogre-exclusive, trolls can use them too.

Giant (spiked) clubs are considered jokes for Trolls because their claws are so big and their apt for UC is so much better than anything else they can use that it's a no-brainer, whereas Ogres are the opposite to a much more extreme degree.

[tabstorm]

Serious question: Why not just give Ogres +0 or -1 in all magic schools, 1 less point of Strength, and 1 more of Int? Would this make Ogres unacceptably powerful, and how is this reconcilable with the existence of Mi, Gr, DD, Sp, Tr if so?