Why no more random deck generation?

[andreas]

(ask Tiktacy about "identification minigame")

My response would be that not everyone on the tavern has played the game as many times as I have(or as many times as people like sar or duvessa have). Odds are, the first 500 times people won't find it tedious. But after you get to 1500+ games it gets fucking terrible.

It takes a long time to realize that certain things are problematic. I imagine a poll asking if decks should be removed would look very similar, since most people haven't played the game enough to know how mechanically weird and out of place they are.

When you put it that way, it sounds a lot less like ''there's a design problem'' than ''I am bored with part of a game I have played over a thousand times.''

[HardboiledGargoyle]

That is true. "Good the first 500 times you do it" is very good per Crawl standards. I found ID tedious the first time I played Crawl.

[Siegurt]

(ask Tiktacy about "identification minigame")

My response would be that not everyone on the tavern has played the game as many times as I have(or as many times as people like sar or duvessa have). Odds are, the first 500 times people won't find it tedious. But after you get to 1500+ games it gets fucking terrible.

It takes a long time to realize that certain things are problematic. I imagine a poll asking if decks should be removed would look very similar, since most people haven't played the game enough to know how mechanically weird and out of place they are. Ironically, this actually works against your argument of removal, rather than for. While I'll admit that this is theoretical, I simply don't care enough to actually create a poll to prove this. Besides, we agree on this topic so there is no point in arguing it.

I am apparently among the few people who genuinely enjoys playing nemelex, but even I am willing to admit that decks outside of the context of nemelex xobeh(and zigs) don't belong.

Fwiw i am upwards of 5000 games, and am not bored of decks, of course i have a notoriously high tolerance, so i may be an outlier opinion-wise.

[Quazifuji]

This change does not affect the players it was aimed at because the players who dont like fiddying with decks dont do so. Please devs, work on your aim.

The devs do have an aim. In this case, that aim is "avoid tedious-but-optimal gameplay." In other words, any time a player is put into a situation where doing something tedious increases their chance of winning, that scenario is bad according to the game's design goals, and it is worthwhile to consider whether that scenario can be solved in an effective way.

Many players find decks tedious. This creates one of two results:

1. Decks are strong enough that using them as a non-Nemelex worshiper is sometimes optimal. This means that, if someone finds decks tedious, then every time they encounter a deck, they are put into a choice between a tedious behavior (using the deck) or a suboptimal one. Therefor, as long as decks are worth using if you do not worship Nemelex, and using them is tedious for many players, the existence of random decks violates the design goals of the game.

2. Decks are so weak that using them as a non-Nemelex worshiper is never optimal. In this case, Decks are an incredibly common item that serves almost no purpose. The "if you don't like them, don't use them" argument works, since you're no longer reducing your chances to win by not using them. On the other hand, having items as incredibly complex as decks generate randomly without being worth using makes the game more confusing for new players (and sometimes even experienced players, considering decks are arguably the most complex and spoilery items in the entire game), as well as taking effort from the developers. It seems silly to maintain this effort and complexity for something that exists as a novelty and is never actually used.

Finally, remember that Nemelex still exists. If you want to use decks, worship Nemelex. Nemelex is different because gods are generally treated as "opt in" - it's okay to have a god that is suboptimal or has a playstyle that many players find unappealing, because choosing your god is intended to be a decision you make about playstyle and not one that's made solely for the sake of optimal play. But by limiting decks to Nemelex, you allow players who enjoy decks to worship Nemelex and use them while avoiding situations where players who dislike decks feel pressure to use them because they found a deck and have a lot of ID scrolls.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Also the spoilery argument could be used to remove Xom too, if you haven't experienced countless deaths by his random effects you won't know every possible effect he can do, and they can be insanely powerful (like Dragon Form). Of course, the reason why Xom won't get deleted is because it's random. Making decks random too would make them a healthy feature for the game: random gameplay (with skill being the biggest factor) is a part of Crawl's philosophy. When you are going to follow Xom at an altar you are warned that he does caprichous things, a similar warning could be used in decks.

This, by the way, is a good argument for keeping Xom strictly suboptimal and a "challenge god", avoiding Quazifuji's "1." above. "2." does not apply to Xom altars (nor Nem altars) because they're clearly a one-way lane to an alternative kind of game.

[njvack]

Another nemelex nerf (((

At least you won't randomly draw from oddities anymore...