Cleave

[Roderic]

I think they're too unrealistic, but handy.

What about increasing the cleaving area effect after reaching some skill level ?

(up dir means towards)

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[galehar]

Axes need a change of some kind... They are WAY too powerful with a natural cleave attack.

Really? I think they're too weak.

Something tells they are about right
I guess they are very good for new players who like to play Be and fight in the open. They are not so good for experienced players who like to play very carefully and always split monster packs to fight them 1 on 1. Obviously, choosing axes isn't the best idea if you want to fight 1v1 as much as possible.

What about increasing the cleaving area effect after reaching some skill level ?

Varying the cleave size sounds interesting, but I think it would be better to make it depend on axe type, not skill.

• hand axe and war axe: 3
• broad axe: 5
• battle axe and exec axe: 7

[crate]

I would rather just keep cleave simple and keep hitting all 7 spaces it does now (or if you change it change it for everything).

After using axes a bit more,

I think current axes are mostly ok, though battleaxes are pretty underwhelming imo (but then I have always thought glaives were also not very good) and exec axes are rare (whereas you will almost always see at least one bardiche in a game). But any character who actually wants to use axes is ok with using acquirement to get an exec axe so that's probably fine. For most characters either a great mace or longblades are going to perform better, but axes are good for some characters and the difference in power isn't very big anyway.

[Roderic]

Quick question because I haven't played enough the 0.12, if surrounded in a corridor, attacking towards a wall (Ctrl + up or down in the example) also attack both of your sides ? Seems effective and odd at the same time.

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[nicolae]

Quick question because I haven't played enough the 0.12, if surrounded in a corridor, attacking towards a wall (Ctrl + up or down in the example) also attack both of your sides ? Seems effective and odd at the same time.

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No, the walls block your cleave.

[some12fat2move]

There are some serious drawbacks to axes now, though. Line of effect management is much harder when weak creatures I'm using to block for me occasionally decide to go and die when I don't want them to. This comes up a lot with centaur and yaktaur packs, for instance; I charge them so they switch to melee, as is the common practice with those guys, but then the weaker ones die and I'm suddenly open to target practice for the ones that were harmlessly walled off behind them. I can't even close with them right away because I would be stepping away from a couple of the ones that are already in melee with me. I don't necessarily think this needs to change, since it is at least potentially an interesting dynamic for monsters to be dying too easily for the player's preference, but if a method to suppress cleaving was implemented it would definitely get some use.

You mean like this?

What about increasing the cleaving area effect after reaching some skill level ?

Varying the cleave size sounds interesting, but I think it would be better to make it depend on axe type, not skill.

• hand axe and war axe: 3
• broad axe: 5
• battle axe and exec axe: 7

[galehar]

What do you mean? This proposal has nothing to do with a method to suppress cleaving. I don't think there should be one btw. What KB is describing is an interesting downside of cleaving IMO.

[some12fat2move]

What do you mean? This proposal has nothing to do with a method to suppress cleaving. I don't think there should be one btw. What KB is describing is an interesting downside of cleaving IMO.

Why, switching to a crappier axe to (partially) suppress cleaving is what I was referring to! That's probably a really bad idea though...I have a hard time imagining when anyone would ever do that.

[varsovie]

My HOHe was getting "are you sure?" messages when pacified monsters were in cleave range, so I assume TSO would be the same.

Well, actually it's really buggy. You are prompted for each problematic cleaved target and can just answer no to avoid attacking it and keep cleaving through.

As dpeg has explained, not attacking allies is more about them getting out of your way rather than you avoiding them. And this is consistent with how polearms reaching through a monster work. So you should get one prompt at the beginning of the cleave if there is at least one problematic target, and if you answer no, it cancel the whole attack. If your god is picky about how you attack monsters, then maybe you shouldn't use an axe. That's a perfectly acceptable drawback and it keeps it simple.

Regarding balance, it's certainly a great buff to the berserk ability. So it might see more use by berserkers which is a good thing IMO. If berserker needs a nerf, I'd rather nerf BiA (increased piety cost?) rather than nerf cleaving.

Why not simply make "Attack neutral/god prohibited foo" a toggle option in the a menu? As for now, if there is only one and he is not in the middle of the pack, I simply use ctrl+direction key to avoid cleaving hit.

[danr]

I was just thinking about cleave a bit more and while it sounds really awesome, it is really only a buff in areas where you are not able to get to a choke point. All it does is essentially allow you to fight a number of battles simultaneously. Sure, you can hit multiple monsters at once, but this is immediately balanced by the fact that multiple monsters can hit you at once as well.

Since this is inherently riskier than fighting 1 on 1 because of the potential for your own HP to go down much more quickly, optimal play is still to retreat to a choke point.

Cleaving is a bit of an interface buff vs. popcorn monsters, or I suppose if you are mobbed by monsters that are weak in melee but dangerous otherwise. E.g. it might be good vs. a group of 3-4 orc priests, who can all hit you even in a corridor, but I think I still would not want to stick around to try to cleave them all.

It is not a buff at all vs. dangerous monsters except in those situations where you really can't get to a chokepoint or escape via teleportation. I generally try to have that situation arise as rarely as possible, so it is only a buff in very rare situations.

So while the concept seemed cool at first and a lot of newbie players will probably die while using their awesome cleave attack, as I think about it from a tactical perspective it is not really beneficial. Sorry but that's how it stacks up in my eyes.

In the end result it encourages more reckless play and has a damage reduction, so this is one of those rare instances where I agree with minmay. I think cleave with the damage reduction is a net nerf to Axes. Cleave, all alone with no accompanying nerf, is probably still not as good a perk as Reaching.

I do think it's a cool concept, just not well balanced from a tactical perspective.

[dpeg]

danr: I believe that you're missing one ingredient: cleaving gets more use out of buffs. Yes, they all can hit you, but your Might/Finesse/whatever is applied to every monster. Particularly for berserk, note that the much more efficient kills/turn ratio of cleaving allows for longer rage sessions.

It's true, and has always been said, that cleave is not a new mode of playing. Generally, one on one is better, as always. But cleaving does open up options, and it's up to the player to make good use of them.

[BlackSheep]

It is not a buff at all vs. dangerous monsters except in those situations where you really can't get to a chokepoint or escape via teleportation.

These are situations that often result in death. If cleaving turns one into a situation that doesn't result in death, it's a buff in my book. Plus I like mowing down popcorn; it's fun.

[Tiber]

It can also be useful for brand effects. You can poison a bunch of monsters at once, you can create multiple electric arcs in water, you can apply the anti-magic effect for monsters, etc. I personally would've preferred cleaving be an evocable effect with a downside, but the current option does allow for some tactical possibilities. It's also kind of fun to just roll up a Chaos Knight and jump into the fray with an axe.

[KoboldLord]

I was just thinking about cleave a bit more and while it sounds really awesome, it is really only a buff in areas where you are not able to get to a choke point. All it does is essentially allow you to fight a number of battles simultaneously. Sure, you can hit multiple monsters at once, but this is immediately balanced by the fact that multiple monsters can hit you at once as well.

Since this is inherently riskier than fighting 1 on 1 because of the potential for your own HP to go down much more quickly, optimal play is still to retreat to a choke point.

Places with few or no choke points:
Orc
new Vaults
open Dungeon levels
open Lair levels
Spider
Shoals
Swamp
open Snake levels
Slime
Blade (can't hold a straight face on this one)
Abyss

In addition, cleaving is better than not cleaving whenever some monsters on the screen have something productive to do even without line-of-effect or melee range. Orc priests are a common early troublemaker, and cleave means you take out its entire meat shield in the time it takes for it to Smite you once, rather than three times. Later, its almost like a passive Abjuration effect when dealing with summoners.

Most battles are best fought one-on-one, even if you have access to cleave. But there are some non-trivial battles where having it is better than not having it.