Traps


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 4th March 2011, 03:24

Re: Traps

I like to use traps as a player resource, too. Blade traps are the best because they'll usually hit and take a good chunk out of a threatening monster. An early hydra lead over a blade trap, for instance, will go down to a much shorter wand fusillade than a perfectly healthy hydra. Teleport traps are also very helpful for forcibly breaking up one of the improved-AI monster packs, since apparently they often have trouble pathing back to the one I cut off. Most of the other mechanical traps are completely ineffective, but needle traps can be used to soften up an ogre if they happen to be handy when you need a solution. Sadly the window where this is worth doing is pretty short.

I've actually never experienced a death to any mechanical trap. Under what sort of situation would you be exploring unknown territory while that injured, anyway? If you're running from a dangerous monster, well then I'm not sure the problem was with the trap.

I'm pretty sure this has already been suggested, but there are plenty of magical effects that you can get from a Zot trap that would be suitable for a lower-level magical trap. One that always does fire miscasts, for instance, has a chance of torching scrolls but doesn't randomly Abyss you. Damage is probably equivalent to a bolt trap. Slowing traps are suitable even as shallow as D1, and are useful resources to the player besides.

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mageykun

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Post Friday, 4th March 2011, 03:35

Re: Traps

on summoning traps, there's a spider basket trap defined in traps.des

on traps as a player resource, this is bad if it encourages kiting everything to traps

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 4th March 2011, 04:12

Re: Traps

Mark me down for some more magical effects, such as silence.

Traps don't have to just affect the player either. Zot traps are cool in that they change the way the player acts in situations, though some of their effects are harsh. Why not take that and apply it in different ways. How about a trap that hastes enemies in LoS? Or casts invisibility on enemies that walk over it unless disabled?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 4th March 2011, 04:52

Re: Traps

MrMisterMonkey wrote:on traps as a player resource, this is bad if it encourages kiting everything to traps


The impact isn't THAT big. It could stand to be bigger, honestly. A handy trap will give you an edge when a monsters is strong enough that you can't just roll over it, but not so strong that it will kill you before you can move it into position. There's enough potential for things to go wrong while maneuvering the monster over to the trap (wandering monsters, inconvenient double turn, another undiscovered trap) that I don't think it's ever likely to be Plan A for clearing levels.
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Post Friday, 4th March 2011, 04:55

Re: Traps

Mechanical traps can be useful if they spawn in a strategically exploitable location. Luring a hydra or ogre through a trap in the early game can definitely help- and a trap in a choke point is a godsend when holding off a crowd. Later, like many things, they become negligible, but get replaced by more dangerous traps.The mechanical traps do however provide a means to train up traps and doors to deal with those dangerous traps, should you choose to spend xp that way. Oh, and of course, they're a source of early ammo for the right roles.

...that said, I can still remember my poor KoAs. He fought a ogre to a standstill, low on resources, out of ammo, and both one hit from death. I took an uncontrolled blink across the room, and then spread the ogre across the room with an un-id-ed wand of disintegration. I took a step to collect the meat before hitting 5... and took a shaft from an arrow trap, right between the legs. A horrible, horrible frustrating death, and one of the few times a mechanical trap got me.

7hm

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 4th March 2011, 06:18

Re: Traps

I think more complicated (read: pressure plate) traps would be cool. Things like the basket trap and the grate trap. Stuff like kobolds with dispersal darts etc.

(I'm fooling around with it now, I'll post results eventually. I have some traps designed but I'm pretty ass with programming stuff, so I know the code is hacked together and I want to screw with it for a bit first.)

7hm

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 4th March 2011, 07:26

Re: Traps

This is around what I was thinking.

As I said above, I'm not too great with the coding thing, so this is pretty hacked together, but it works. (only issue that I've found is that the doors looked screwed up in tiles)

All of this is in traps.des

The function that the trap calls:
  Code:
function callback.monster_doors1_stepped(data, triggerable, triggerer, marker, ev)
  local x, y = marker:pos()
  local p = dgn.find_marker_positions_by_prop("grate", 1)[1]
  local o = dgn.find_marker_positions_by_prop("grate", 2)[1]
  local d = dgn.find_marker_positions_by_prop("door", 1) [1]
  local e = dgn.find_marker_positions_by_prop("door", 2) [1]
  local q = dgn.find_marker_positions_by_prop("exit", 1) [1]

  if (p == nil) or (d == nil) or (o == nil) or (e == nil) or (q == nil) then
    crawl.mpr("Error: no grate to close!")
    dgn.grid(x, y, "floor")
    return -- uh oh
  end
 
  if (dgn.mons_at(p.x, p.y) ~= nil or p == you.pos()) then
    if (you.see_cell(x, y)) then
      crawl.mpr("A part of floor depresses, but nothing seems to happen.")
      return
    end
  end
  dgn.grid(p.x, p.y, "iron_grate")
  dgn.grid(o.x, o.y, "iron_grate")
  dgn.grid(d.x, d.y, "closed_door")
  dgn.grid(e.x, e.y, "closed_door")
  dgn.grid(q.x, q.y, "floor")
  dgn.grid(x, y, "floor")

  if (you.see_cell(p.x, p.y)) then
    crawl.mpr("You step on to a pressure plate and iron grates slams shut around you!")
    crawl.mpr("You now see doors in the wall!")
  end 

end


And the vault itself:
  Code:
##############################################################################
NAME:    trap_monster_doors
TAGS:     entry no_monster_gen
ORIENT:    float
: if crawl.one_chance_in(4) then
SUBST:    e : . , E : q, g : x , G : x , \
    h : x , H : x, f : x , F : x
: elseif crawl.one_chance_in(3) then
SUBST:    e : x , E : x, g : . , G : q , \
    h : x , H : x, f : x , F : x
: elseif crawl.one_chance_in(2) then
SUBST:    e : x , E : x, g : x , G : x , \
    h : . , H : q, f : x , F : x
: else
SUBST:    e : x , E : x, g : x , G : x , \
    h : x , H : x, f : . , F : q
: end
NSUBST:    z = 1:z / *:x , y = 1:y / *:x
KFEAT:    ^ = pressure plate trap
{{
local tm = TriggerableFunction:new{func="callback.monster_doors1_stepped",
                                   repeated=true}
tm:add_triggerer(DgnTriggerer:new{type="pressure_plate"})
lua_marker('^', tm)
lua_marker(',', props_marker { grate=1 })
lua_marker(';', props_marker { grate=2 })
lua_marker('z', props_marker { door=1 })
lua_marker('y', props_marker { door=2 })
lua_marker('q', props_marker { exit=1 })
}}

SUBST:    z : x , y : x , q : x , 1 = 111.
MONS:   
PLACE:    D:1
MAP
xxxxxxxxxxx
eeee111gggg
ExxxzzzxxxG
@,...^..{;@
HxxxyyyxxxF
hhhh111ffff
xxxxxxxxxxx
ENDMAP


If anyone has ideas for other traps, thoughts on the above, or (and I'd appreciate this one) suggestions for how to improve the code, I'm all ears. (the tags aren't done and I had it set as entry for testing purposes)

...

And after having read this I thought that I might want to explain what is happening for anyone who doesn't want to read the code itself.

The vault is a corridor that looks pretty innocent to the naked eye. When the player hits the middle of the corridor though, he steps onto a pressure plate. That plate slams two iron gates shut that trap him in and two doors appear on the wall beside him where no doors were before. Behind the doors are monsters.

The trap also opens up a new corridor to allow the player to exit the vault (though he'll have to go through some monsters to do it). Just thinking about it now, but I'll have to add in some no tele into the monster area ( you would of course be allowed to teleport out).
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 4th March 2011, 20:08

Re: Traps

I would love to see traps loaded with... weapons that are greater in value than +0, with a high likelihood of being cursed.

That would totally shake a lot of things up. As it stands, arrow traps are huge generators for the ranged-minded.

Granted, I have not yet encountered a trap loaded with non +0 weaponry, so I could just be misinformed.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2011, 16:04

Re: Traps

A couple of thoughts on this topic:

1. I don't think mechanical traps have no impact. Let's say a trap whacks you for 10 hp. You now have three choices: (a) keep going and run an increased risk of dying cuz of lowered hp; (b) heal with a consumable; or (c) heal by resting and thereby burning up your food clock (for most races). Choice (c) is probably the one most people take since it has the lowest cost. But even then, there still is a cost.

2. Mechanical traps also serve a function. We all know that wandering into Zot 5 with 0 in Traps in just begging the RNGs to drop like 10 Zot Traps in the entry area. "Weak" mechanical traps give players a way to spam some xp to get that Trap skill up.

3. Please consider removing Shafts from D1. Getting dumped to D3 when you are level 1 is a virtual death sentence. Fastest game I ever played: start character, wander out of entry area, get shafted down to D3, in a corner, surrounded by 3 jackals and a snake, with no exits nearby. Lasted all of 39 seconds. Whoohoo! Let's do that again!

4. If folks want make mechanical traps tougher, what about:

* stronger poisons on needles/arrows/whatever
* curare on needles/arrows/whatever
* needles/arrows/whatever that cause rot
* needles/arrows/whatever that slow, confuse, sleep, paralyze, or heck, even berserk

There is ammo that does all of the above already. Why not let the RNGs have fun building traps using them? To deal with scumming, you can set it up so the traps do not leave ammo behind.

5. Agreed re making Teleport Traps run on limited charges. Like 1-4. But don't make them disappear from the screen. That way, if you know you're running a risk if you are depending on a Teleport Trap to beam the baddie away... (Also, if these traps are changed, then we'll need an alternate, permanent Teleport Trap for that dungeon feature with the treasure surrounded by metal walls and 4 Teleport Traps.)

6. If people want traps to be more "fun," how about making them more elaborate? There are dungeon features like this already. Square room. You walk in. Four gnolls open secret doors from each wall and start throwing spears at you. Or something like:

  Code:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
x1xxxxxxx1xxxxxxxxx1xxxxxxxxxx
x=xxxxxxx=xxxxxxxxx=xxxxxxxxxx
x........................$.xxx
........................$*$=1x
x........................$.xxx
xxxxx=xxxxxxxx=xxxxxxxx=xxxxxx
xxxxx1xxxxxxxx1xxxxxxxx1xxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

With the 1s being Spores or Unseen Horrors or Fire Orbs or whatever that are released when the player grabs the goods.

7. The portcullis idea sounds interesting. What about making them appear only in 1 square wide corridors, in pairs (one behind and one ahead of the player, trapping them), only after being stepped on X times (in other words, players think the corridor is a safe place to retreat to...), and/or make them hard to breakdown and generate plenty of noise every time the player takes a swing at it?

Anyway, those are just my 2 cents.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2011, 17:39

Re: Traps

If we change tele traps to have limited charges (like an alarm trap) it would break vaults that currently use them as a sneaky wall. All you'd have to be willing to do to enter the vault would be to run into the trap till it fizzles, no need to come back with statis/ctele/blink/digging etc.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2011, 18:14

Re: Traps

mageykun wrote:If we change tele traps to have limited charges (like an alarm trap) it would break vaults that currently use them as a sneaky wall. All you'd have to be willing to do to enter the vault would be to run into the trap till it fizzles, no need to come back with statis/ctele/blink/digging etc.


Well, if the problem is that people use them as a free escape, but we want them to not run out, how about making it so that after the first time you stumble onto it, its range is limited to more like a blink? It still keeps some tactical value, it doesn't expire, yet it won't let you completely get away from danger.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2011, 19:11

Re: Traps

Teleport traps wouldn't be a problem at all if teleport control wasn't as overpowered as it currently is. If you bail through one without control, you can potentially get dropped into an even worse situation. If there's no worse situation on the current level, then the current situation isn't all that bad anyway because you can just run away and let the monsters spread out a bit.

I've posted some more comprehensive ideas on the Teleport Control page of the wiki, but the simplest way to deal with this narrow subset of the issue is to make teleport control not apply to teleports that are caused by some source other than intentional player activation.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2011, 19:51

Re: Traps

Good idea, I like tc applying only to player activated teleport. And we can make random teleport trap with a single charge, while keeping the vault ones permanent.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 7th March 2011, 13:41

Re: Traps

KoboldLord wrote:I've posted some more comprehensive ideas on the Teleport Control page of the wiki, but the simplest way to deal with this narrow subset of the issue is to make teleport control not apply to teleports that are caused by some source other than intentional player activation.


Is there really such a screaming need for a nerf here? It's not like it's something that can be abused to a game-breaking degree. Teleport and teleport control already come with significant costs/risks to balance them.

If you really need to prevent controlled teleport from traps (and that makes some cool vault ideas impossible, imo) it's better to restrict control of instant teleports.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 7th March 2011, 14:09

Re: Traps

vintermann wrote:Is there really such a screaming need for a nerf here? It's not like it's something that can be abused to a game-breaking degree. Teleport and teleport control already come with significant costs/risks to balance them.

If you really need to prevent controlled teleport from traps (and that makes some cool vault ideas impossible, imo) it's better to restrict control of instant teleports.


Yes. Teleport control is probably the single most powerful extrinsic ability you can get in the game. Used properly, teleport control means you basically cannot be killed; you can Blink away from nearly any situation. The minor glow is absolutely trivial compared to the benefits. A vanilla ring of teleport control is likely to be better than every randart ring you fine in a typical 15-Rune game, and you will almost certainly not find two randart rings that are preferable to teleport control.

The only thing coming close to a check on teleport control is the fact that nine levels in the game block it entirely. This isn't a very interesting solution, because it just makes teleport control into a Useless Useful Ability for those levels, but some sort of restriction for the ability is unavoidable with teleport control at its current level of power because otherwise it would trivialize even these few branch ends.

Restricting control of instant teleports would leave the monster Teleport Other spell in an odd place. Currently, hellwings and naga mages often end up doing the player a favor by casting this monster spell, since the player will be sent away from the dangerous Lair 8 portal vault or the Snake 5 Rune vault, allowing the player to recover before hunting down more monsters.

Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 7th March 2011, 15:37

Re: Traps

How about just limiting the range of controlled teleports in certain circumstances.

For some of the vault tele door traps, you need a way to get around the teleport to grab the goodies. Either stasis or controlled teleport are viable solutions; outright preventing control teleport means there's no way to grab the goodies if you don't have stasis.

However by making it so you can only teleport to within, say, a 3-radius area from those - you can jump over the trap if needed but not generally exploit them to get instant teleport anywhere.

This could also be applied to specific levels where CTele is currently disabled. Just reduce its range instead (and make it less reliable) so it *might* strategically save you but very often not.

Also the range of self-induced CTele could be reduced; and maybe increase the higher your spell power could go. The range restriction could vary on different levels, i.e. different strengths of "teleport clamping".

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 7th March 2011, 16:07

Re: Traps

mumra wrote:How about just limiting the range of controlled teleports in certain circumstances.

For some of the vault tele door traps, you need a way to get around the teleport to grab the goodies. Either stasis or controlled teleport are viable solutions; outright preventing control teleport means there's no way to grab the goodies if you don't have stasis.


You could just burn a scroll. I usually have several dozen left by the time I no longer bother carrying destructible consumables.

mumra wrote:However by making it so you can only teleport to within, say, a 3-radius area from those - you can jump over the trap if needed but not generally exploit them to get instant teleport anywhere.


This goes in the opposite direction. Teleport traps are completely toothless and might as well be removed if even in Tomb and Zot 5 they can't drop you in the middle of a cluster of unpleasant monsters.

Blink traps as a separate trap type is worth considering, but not as a wholesale replacement.

Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 7th March 2011, 16:15

Re: Traps

KoboldLord wrote:
mumra wrote:How about just limiting the range of controlled teleports in certain circumstances.

For some of the vault tele door traps, you need a way to get around the teleport to grab the goodies. Either stasis or controlled teleport are viable solutions; outright preventing control teleport means there's no way to grab the goodies if you don't have stasis.


You could just burn a scroll. I usually have several dozen left by the time I no longer bother carrying destructible consumables.


I haven't got that far in the game; I've seen these kind of vaults in the early levels.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 8th March 2011, 01:01

Re: Traps

mumra wrote:I haven't got that far in the game; I've seen these kind of vaults in the early levels.


Scrolls of teleport are many, many times more ubiquitous than sources of teleport control. If you run into one of those vaults in the early game, it's actually highly unusual to be able to get in immediately.

Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 8th March 2011, 05:17

Re: Traps

Teleport control could fail sometimes. This would make it dangerous to rely on. It would also allow for cTele to have a low chance of working on no-cTele levels, which may or mat not be desirable but I think would make them seem more natural.

Or, after using it once, the player could be forced to (randomly) blink or teleport a few turns later. Soft glow isn't really a punishment in most cases, since you'll be out of danger anyway. It just make repeated use risky.

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