Vaults Monster Set Revamp


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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 02:42

Vaults Monster Set Revamp

The Vaults is that branch with a whole lot of potential, but much of it wasted. There's a lot of general proposals to adjusting Vaults in manners such as layouts and what not, but this one will specifically target the current monster set.

At present, the Vaults monster set is basically "Main Dungeon Monsters continued". There's very little that is normally encountered in the Vaults that isn't encountered in the main dungeon or one of Vault's sub-branches. Personally, all I can think of are Vault Guards and Quicksliver Dragons, which is pretty darn abysmal in terms of introducing new monsters and mechanics. As such, in a flood of inspiration, I came up with an entirely new set of monsters.

First, all the stuff that normally spawns in the main dungeon, such as ugly things, slime creatures, yaktaurs, orc packs, ogre packs, giants, and all that other junk is removed from Vaults. Vault Guards and Quicksliver Dragons stay, as does the trademark V:8 welcoming committee.

Second, the Vaults' new monster theme is oriented around the artificial monsters and treasures that protect themselves from robbers. As such, most foes encountered in Vaults will be lifeless artificial opponents, something not seen in any other branch except Hall of Blades.

And third, speaking of Blade, it'd, consequently, would probably need to be removed if this revamp went through. Why? Redundancy, as you'll see why.


The monster set would include a old friends, such as various golems and statues and, of course, animated weapons. Stats could be readjusted so that they're all appropriate for being a branch-specific monster, kind of like how most spider-type enemies got rebalanced for the Spider Nest. But, of course, there's a slew of new friends as well, including lots of other animated items bent on killing you…

These include…

Animated launchers (bows, crossbows, and slings): These have the ability to shoot through other animated items without harming them, which is a very important trait. Why? Every shot they fire is also animated and, after hitting (or missing) the player, will arise from wherever it landed to attack the player on its own. Should the launcher run out of ammo, it will use Apportation to acquire more ammo, animated or not. Unanimated ammo it apports and subsequently fires becomes animated. When killed, any ammo it is "carrying" will still be animated and proceed to attack the player.

Animated ammo: Some of its tricks are already listed, but if they're without a launcher (or are a throwing weapon like a large rock) they'll travel in packs and will "rush" the player similar to the Boulder Beetle's rolling attack.

Animated potions: Come in all flavors and behave like Giant Spores in that they'll rush the player and attempt to explode. Should they explode, they release clouds as if they had been used in the Evaporate spell, so depending on the potion the effect could be anywhere from steam to miasma. Killing them makes them drop as a usable potion, but not if they explode. So, it could force interesting tactical decisions if, say, a Potion of Cure Mutation was hellbent on murdering you while you're trying to flee on low HP from some animated swords.

Animated scrolls: Once they sight the player, they will attempt to use themselves to attack the player. The scroll will unfurl and a disembodied voice will begin to slowly read it. It takes a few turns, say 3-5, for the scroll to finish, at which point it will be consumed and hit the player with an affect related to the scroll. If defeated, can be used as normal.

-Torment, Holy Word, Noise, Silence, Vulnerability, Unholy Creation, Fog, Fear, and Immolation do as they always do, though Immolation will attempt to get in range and Silence will center on the player regardless.

-Curse Weapon/Armor/Jewel will curse the player's equipment as appropriate. Not animated if the player worships Ashenzari.

-Remove Curse only animates if the player worships Ash and will uncurse a random piece of gear.

-Teleportation and Blinking will teleport/blink the player randomly.

-Enchant Weapon/Armor will attempt to enchant nearby hostile animated weapons or armor.

-Recharging will attempt to recharge nearby hostile animated wands and rods and/or could attempt to drain a player's wands/rods.

-Magic Mapping will alert all awake monsters on the level to your current location. Alternatively, causes temporary map rot. After a short time, what the player explored will be remembered. I think Ash could protect from this.

-Identify will reveal you if you're invisible. Alternatively, causes the player to temporarily forget the identity of some of their items, which are properly recalled when the effect ends. I think Ash could protect from this.

-Uselessness summons Butterflies.

-Acquirement will acquire a weapon, which will be hostile and animated.

-Amnesia will cause the player to temporarily forget a spell. The spell slots will still be used and the spell can still be properly forgotten, but the spell itself will be unusable for a short time. I think Sif Muna and/or Ash could protect from this.

Animated Wands/Rods: Will use offensive effects/spells on the player, defensive effects on anything hostile to the player. If a wand runs out of charges, it will cease being animated unless an animated Scroll of Recharge is nearby.

Animated Staves: Behave like animated weapons.

Animated Decks: Will draw cards and use them against the player. Probably only have Destruction, Summoning, and War be eligible for simplicity sake… and the fact a hostile Deck of Wonders spamming Shuffle at you would be incredibly frustrating.

Animated Misc Summoning Items (Air Elemental Fan, Box of Beasts, etc): Summons stuff to attack the player. The Box of Beasts will cease being animated if it empties and the Efreet Bottle will be consumed if it is used. The Lamp of Shadows also falls under here and will spam shadows at the player, but not reduce LOS (the player could purposely let a Lantern of Shadows follow them to abuse the LOS reduction).

Crystal Ball of Energy: Drains MP from the player.

Spellbooks and the Tome of Destruction: Casts spells at the player. Trog followers can one-shot the spellbooks with Book Burning.

Shields and non-body armor: Will attempt to position itself between the player and the ranged animated items, such as launchers and scrolls.

Body Armor: Acts like a haunted/possessed suit of armor, with heavier armors being stronger and more durable, but slower (robes are fast, CPM are slow). Other animated items are attracted to it, which it will "equip" and use. It will take armor for each auxiliary slot, either a two-handed weapon or weapon and shield, throwing weapons or a launcher with ammo (can apport spent ammo and shot ammo is animated), and a wand, rod, or spellbook. All attacks against it are directed against the armor itself. When the armor is killed, it will drop all of its "gear", which is, of course, still animated and will proceed to attack the player as it would normally. Animated Body Armor always spawns "awake" and will gladly look for gear before the player has even met it.

Animated Mimics: What? They wanted to get in on the fun too! Disguised as an animated item, but when it gets into melee it'll do its normal, mimic attacks such as poison and constriction.

Jewels, corpses, food, and gold will never be animated.


Yes, that's a lot of animated stuff. Most, if not all, eligible loot should be animated when the player enters the level and should rarely, or never, spawn after the level is generated.


All the various golems, except possibly Electric golems, can spawn in Vaults. Some new ones will also probably need to exist, such as ones that can reflect spells and projectiles, golems that are charged with attack magic, golems that shatter on death, golems that can combine themselves into massive golems, and more. It'd also be neat if, rather than always wandering, golems could hide in walls or disguise themselves as harmless statues and burst out from hiding when the player passes nearby, perhaps causing a LRD effect when doing so.

Statues should probably not be used too frequently outside of pre-made mini-vaults since a statue in the middle of nowhere is harmless and pointless. Also, more statue variety would be good, such as magma counterparts to Ice Statues, melody statues (sings to cause mesmerization, could always spawn with other statues), statues that shoot/throw animated ammo, alarm statues that alert nearby monsters to the player's location, and others.


I think, all combined, this should make for a much more interesting and unique monster set that poses some varied, and new challenges not seen in other branches. I mean, after all, how often do you have to try to stop a Scroll of Acquirement from trying to kill you?
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 03:35

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

While I'm bored (and annoyed) with encountering pack of centaurs/yaktaurs in the vault and throughout the rest of the dungeon, I think your 'animated monsters' are going to make vault a lot harder.

Especially for melee classes. It will make positioning really difficult for them. Arrows shooting past other monsters? That can be only done with portal projectile spells or in rare case of monsters hiding behind the bush. Wands shooting multiple spells-even in hell does one rarely get hit by multiple spells, and by that time players will have some means to react accordingly. But entering vault most are not equipped properly to deal with threat.

I feel they are like mimics with special abilities. But it's going to make the place unnecessarily hard. Not even ziggurat or hell gives multiple challenges to player as your suggestions. Players will be randomly teleported/blinked, getting attacked by various spells, tormented/silenced/get holy dmg, subject to poison/rotting dmg. I really think this is just too much for players to handle.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 04:29

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

Keep in mind, scrolls of Torment, Holy Word, and all that stuff are rather rare, as are potions that could create Miasma when evaporated (and even then they only had a chance to create miasma). You won't find any more "dangerous loot" in Vaults than you would otherwise, so a lot of the more special threats would be rather rare.

Wands are also somewhat uncommon and good wands less so. Most wands you're finding at that depth you'll probably trash right away and you won't be concerned if a monster picks it up. A dangerous wand could be dealt with the same way you could with a monster carrying said wand normally. And if you can't deal with, say, a Wand of Draining by Vaults, you really have much bigger issues with your character or have no business being at that depth to begin with.

Also, rods are excessively rare and spellbooks are uncommon and strong spellbooks rather rare, so that'd probably be no different than running into the various casters in other branches, albeit with a wider variety of spells (and Vaults already throws every element at you with some regularity sans corrosion and mutation).

Think about the floor trash you normally find. In this proposal, it'd still be the same floor trash, except just trying to kill you. It's not like you're going to be hounded by five scrolls of Torment, ten potions of Decay, seventy large rocks of electrocution, and eight wands of paralysis wherever you go.

Launchers being able to shoot through other animated items is virtually essential when the shot ammo is animated too, because otherwise it'd only get two or three shots off before its line of fire would be blocked. That and I imagine melee would actually have an easier time with threats such as that. Obviously, getting shot by an arrow from a bow should hurt a lot more than the arrow poking you in melee, so a high AC melee character probably wouldn't be too threatened by the swarm. And, if they had an axe, could probably clear the ammo swarming them very quickly via cleaving.

I'm betting the revamp would probably be "holy crap this is hard!" similar to how Shoals, Spider, and Snake with constriction was when it was introduced until players learn how to deal with the threats, at which point it'll be "business as normal".
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 05:01

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

Most wands you're finding at that depth you'll probably trash right away and you won't be concerned if a monster picks it up.


I don't know. Wands of enslavement/confusion/slowing/paralysis becomes almost useless by the time the character gets to the vault (at least that's the case for me), but it can be really annoying if some monsters pick those and start casting them. Another problem is that the animated wands will exclusively use the same spell (unless a cantrip is added). An animated Wand of paralysis will always cast paralysis, which can be a fatal consequences for the character. Same for scroll. An animated Scroll of torment will always use torment, which can make killing it increasingly frustrating. It will be like tormentors, and they shouldn't appear at Vault (unless under very extraordinary circumstances I can't think of).

Shoals, snakes, spider have a small range of theme that the characters can prepare to (rPois, flight, clarity, for example). But with this new vault the characters will very much likely have to be prepared for everything.

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 05:13

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

The animated scrolls, potions, and other single-use items, plus the misc. activated items sound like a nightmare to implement, and mostly it seems like a detriment to the player. I also find it strange that I can "kill" a potion or scroll and use it. Animated wands, rods, and spellbooks sound like fun, especially if they behave more like mimics and only come to life when approached. Animated (body) armor is a little boring but makes sense alongside animated weapons, although your proposed system seems awfully complicated and I don't think players would ever notice the finer points. It almost sounds like a player species.

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 09:55

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

While there are definitely some worthy ideas, the full list seems like you were trying to shoehorn just about every piece of loot into the animated monster concept. Animated armour I can get behind. Animated spellbooks, ok. Animated launchers, ammo, consumables and misc. items seems too much.

Edit: moved my own suggestion to its own thread
Last edited by Psieye on Thursday, 1st November 2012, 13:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 10:10

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

tl;dr You want to make Vaults a long, tiring grind through endless animated ammo hordes fired off by animated launchers while they're clearly snickering at your futile attempts to claw your way out.

Oh, and don't even hope for any supplies, they were too busy killing you to actually have time to be stuff you'll pick up.

I don't really think that's a really grand idea, unless the mentioned animated items aren't very frequent.
But what you instead have in mind is turning the Vaults into a place where you won't get to salvage any consumables, and any equipment you may find is going to give you a beating to grab it.

I.. No, I don't really think that's what "Vaults" should be. Why should we turn a place where you might actually find some sweet loot into a place where you can't even get any consumables because they all explode in your face.

(In case the point isn't clear, an entire branch where you don't acquire, but wear down all of your consumables because all the loot blows up in your face is not exactly a good thing to replace a "normal" branch with.)
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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 10:39

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

"Hall of Blades doesn't suck enough already so lets turn the Vaults (which have JUST BEEN FIXED out of being the second most boring thing ever) into the Halls of Blades and Everything Else"
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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 11:56

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

There are already enough branches with a focus on enemies that are immune to most necromancy and some other stuff (undead and demons). I don't think there need to be more. Granted, all of them are currently very optional, but still, enough is enough. While somewhat fitting thematically I don't think a nonliving monster set would lead to very good gameplay.

And I didn't even factor in that most of your ideas for animated stuff are bad. A giant "fuck you" to characters that are focused on melee (they would lose most consumable loot), and many of your ideas also sound incredibly annoying. Animated ammo is probably the worst offender in the annoyance department.

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 13:02

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

I like the initial proposal way more than most of the commenters, but I agree that as written it would turn into a totally worthless slog for characters who primarily do damage with melee attacks, poison, or necromancy and for characters with high metabolism. Animated launchers seems like an interesting concept, but animated ammo would be an astounding pain to deal with for most characters, even if it was popcorn. Most of these concepts also strike me as quite challenging to implement, seeing as they're not just new monster types, but often new monster AIs.

I like the idea of mixing a certain amount of this suggestion into the Vaults, but without removing every other type of monster and without removing some normal items.
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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 13:39

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

I feel like Vaults could just go for a focus on humanoids -- Wizards, necromancers, vault guards, boggarts, a few elves, tengu, deep dwarves, et cetera. I don't think the current monster set should be booted out entirely, but I think weight-wise there should be more humanoid things in Vaults and more slime creature/ugly thing/tentacle monstrosity stuff happening in D.

Dragons are a tough one, though, because I think they're a hallmark of Vaults -- especially quicksilver and shadow dragons -- but I feel like it also makes sense to have those show up more in late D than in Vaults, as an anticipation of dragon/draconian-heavy Zot.

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 13:45

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

Good flavor, bad mechanics. Unfortunately one is more important than the other.

(also newvaults are awesome, give .12 a whirl if you haven't yet)

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 22:34

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

Honestly I like all of the suggestions except for animated lauchers also spawning animated ammo. Keep the launchers, have them fire normal ammo, and you'll be fine. Maybe consider some "ancient device" sort of monsters in addition to the golems. Seems like the branch would be fairly physically oriented, could be tough for melee to break through high AC monsters, although some types of golem have a lot (ie, all) of resistances as well.
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Post Friday, 2nd November 2012, 16:22

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

Okay, so what if we...

-Removed animated ammo save darts and javelins, who the player could simply side-step similar to a Boulder Beetle.

-Launchers no longer fire through other animated items (their ammo is not getting in the way, so no longer a need for that).

-Only harmful scrolls and potions are animated.

-Remove animated decks and the misc items.

I know golem stats and resistances were brought up and I think they'd probably need some tweaking/rebalancing to be a branch-themed monster. Though right now they are typically safe to melee by the time if you're in Vaults. I mean, if my FeVM could melee a crystal golem without much risk, I'm sure a MiBe could kill it by merely backhanding it.

The branch becoming heavily rN immune is a bit of a redundancy, I know, but there's still more branches were poison is useless and, more importantly, I see it more as a problem with how rN works compared to other resistances.
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Post Friday, 2nd November 2012, 19:40

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

A lot of this sounds like it was inspired from my Animated Armour idea. Anyhow, the idea of changing the Vaults monsters to include unique monsters to it so I'm behind this idea in concept.

In regards to Animated Items though - perhaps make it so that something on the level animates them? IE, an Animator enemy that spawns like a Giant Spore and then proceeds to make a huge mess of the level by making every piece of equipment jump and dance until he's killed; or perhaps make it like a sort of temporary 'Vaults Event' where items will get up and start moving for some odd turns before dropping again.
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Post Friday, 2nd November 2012, 23:29

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

Davion Fuxa wrote:A lot of this sounds like it was inspired from my Animated Armour idea.


Vaults Monster Set Revamp
by TwilightPhoenix » Wednesday, 31st October 2012, 20:42

Expanding the Bestiary
by Davion Fuxa » Yesterday, 20:48

Personally, I thought it was the other way around.


In regards to Animated Items though - perhaps make it so that something on the level animates them? IE, an Animator enemy that spawns like a Giant Spore and then proceeds to make a huge mess of the level by making every piece of equipment jump and dance until he's killed; or perhaps make it like a sort of temporary 'Vaults Event' where items will get up and start moving for some odd turns before dropping again.


An Animator could be interesting, though the previous one, Terpsichore or however you spelled it, never made it past Trunk. Maybe as a Vaults boss for the whole branch and only spawns in V:8? Not really sold on that idea personally, but I see the potential.
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Post Saturday, 3rd November 2012, 00:07

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

TwilightPhoenix wrote:An Animator could be interesting, though the previous one, Terpsichore or however you spelled it, never made it past Trunk.


IIRC, Terpsichore was either a pushover or a murder machine, depending on whether you picked up all the weapons from the level and cleared them out before engaging with her.

Perhaps a unique that wore a special suit of armour+weapon that they could animate, sending the moving and unkillable armour to the front lines while staying out of your reach to the best of their ability, and when they got to low health they recalled the armour back onto them.
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Post Saturday, 3rd November 2012, 01:57

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

TwilightPhoenix wrote:
Davion Fuxa wrote:A lot of this sounds like it was inspired from my Animated Armour idea.


Vaults Monster Set Revamp
by TwilightPhoenix » Wednesday, 31st October 2012, 20:42

Expanding the Bestiary
by Davion Fuxa » Yesterday, 20:48

Personally, I thought it was the other way around.


Well, this pretty much confirms what I always thought about all these godawful suggestions that get spammed in here: it's an ego thing. Some people are just that desperate to "contribute", I guess.

Here's an idea, how about you people start worrying more about understanding the game, what makes it good, how its design works, etc, instead of just rapidfiring whatever comes to your heads and then bickering about who came with a lame idea first, complaining about people hating your bad ideas, etc?
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Post Saturday, 3rd November 2012, 04:04

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

nicolae wrote:IIRC, Terpsichore was either a pushover or a murder machine, depending on whether you picked up all the weapons from the level and cleared them out before engaging with her.

Perhaps a unique that wore a special suit of armour+weapon that they could animate, sending the moving and unkillable armour to the front lines while staying out of your reach to the best of their ability, and when they got to low health they recalled the armour back onto them.



Yeah, I can certainly see that being an issue, which was partly why I wasn't entirely sold on it. It'd need to be a level or branch-wide effect that happens upon entry, so no avoiding it by "grabbing every weapon and carrying it to the Temple". Or work something like yours where they carry their gear beforehand.
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Post Monday, 5th November 2012, 03:03

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

Or maybe only spwan the monster with a set of animated stuff. That won't be the fist monster/unique that spawn in group and will ensure some animated stuff.
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Post Monday, 5th November 2012, 03:15

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

So... chunkless vaults then?
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Post Tuesday, 6th November 2012, 13:57

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

XuaXua wrote:So... chunkless vaults then?


Solution: animated chunks.

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Post Tuesday, 6th November 2012, 22:15

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

Just add some monsters that produce chunks - someone said something about leaving Dragons, though I think they should have a reduced emphasis if allowed to spawn in Vaults due to the Realm of Xot spawning them in fairly large number.

An idea might be to also add a 'Alchemical Monster' feel to Vaults by making some wizardly type of Chimera or Homunculus guards of sorts; which would fit well with the Animated Items since they are already quite wizardly.
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Post Wednesday, 7th November 2012, 08:41

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

Vault Guards and Quicksliver Dragons would still be in it regardless. Dunno about the latter since I usually just run from them on the rare occasion I see one (and 90% of the time I do, it's a shapeshifter anyway), but the former can certainly produce chunks.
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Post Wednesday, 7th November 2012, 13:26

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

+1 for Chimerae in Vaults -- it seemed like people mostly liked the Chimera monster proposal I threw out, but I'm not sure if any of those people were devs.

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Post Wednesday, 7th November 2012, 13:50

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

Lasty wrote:+1 for Chimerae in Vaults -- it seemed like people mostly liked the Chimera monster proposal I threw out, but I'm not sure if any of those people were devs.


Yes, I think some peculiar monsters for Vaults is a good idea, the way Catoblepas (I surely misspelled it), Elephants or Basilisks are for Lair. The key is finding a new mechanic or a new twist on an old mechanic to make the monster unique.

In this case I would not recommend any more undeads, but maybe the Vaults could become a sort of "lawful"-oriented level so you can bring in automatons and lawful-aligned monsters in mythology (for instance, there are no pegasi and unicorns in Crawl, and a fast spellcaster could be a problem for some characters, expecially if it flies).
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Post Tuesday, 13th November 2012, 10:53

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

There was another idea for vaults floating around (from IRC IIRC): guardian statues that do nothing directly to the player but instead cast buffs on nearby monsters to tip the balance.

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Post Tuesday, 13th November 2012, 11:29

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

mumra: luring alert.

The idea would be great for ziggurats, though.

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Post Tuesday, 13th November 2012, 19:32

Re: Vaults Monster Set Revamp

Or certain dungeon vaults. Though statue casting haste/berserk would be terrifying. But then we have moth of wrath for the latter so it won't be that bad...

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