Why do people like permadeath?

[Tomato]

Because it's my least favorite part of this game, and any other game that has it. I hate it when I get a good fun run going and then lose it and have to go do another 15 shitty runs and boring early game just to get another good run going. Why do people seem to love this horrible mechanic?

[twelwe]

This game is full of hard lessons to learn, and the only way to ensure someone will actually learn from their mistakes is to create terrible consequences - in this case, permadeath. If you think the early game is boring, you probably do not have -1 travel delays in your config, or use mactos for boring actions (cey, ceyo, G>, po are some macros I can think of that speed the game up like crazy).

[crate]

If you want to play without permadeath you can, you just have to play using a build with wizard mode enabled and then enable it.

[snow]

Just don't die then.

If the game didn't have permanent death players would just brute force their way through a 15 rune game and never play again after that. If you really want more lives play a felid.

[pratamawirya]

Why do people seem to love this horrible mechanic?

It's a blind love, dude. Really. Well, just like a true love should be.

[nicolae]

I don't love permadeath, it's not like I get bothered if a game doesn't have it, I just accept it as a genre convention and move on. If I die, well, that's an incentive to become a better player.

[Grimm]

Infinite lives make you lazy and weak. Permadeath makes you strong.

[cerebovssquire]

on the bright side, early game is less boring than the rest because it is actually challenging

[palin]

Because it's my least favorite part of this game, and any other game that has it. I hate it when I get a good fun run going and then lose it and have to go do another 15 shitty runs and boring early game just to get another good run going. Why do people seem to love this horrible mechanic?

You can always save-scum. In offline games nobody will come to you and yell...

[zasvid]

Because it's my least favorite part of this game, and any other game that has it. I hate it when I get a good fun run going and then lose it and have to go do another 15 shitty runs and boring early game just to get another good run going. Why do people seem to love this horrible mechanic?

What you described isn't a problem with permadeath, it's a problem with early game being unfun. Permadeath itself isn't a horrible mechanic (nor a good one), its application in a given game can make the game better or worse. In strategy & tactics games like DCSS it fits splendidly, in games that primarily focus on story and players choices (like some of AAA RPGs) it would be a horrible addition.

[roctavian]

I think it is important to distinguish "fun" from "interesting" because they are both positives, but they don't necessarily overlap. Crawl is more about being interesting than fun, and you can certainly argue that permadeath isn't a necessary component of interesting -- but it is a necessary component of Crawl's formula. Without permadeath, players will win 100% of games that they play, unless they stop playing. That's not how Crawl works, and I don't think there's any way to break that down further. Online scoreboards depend on it, the roguelike concept of learning from each death to improve play depends on it.

[palin]

Still I don't find early game boring...

[galehar]

Because it's my least favorite part of this game, and any other game that has it. I hate it when I get a good fun run going and then lose it and have to go do another 15 shitty runs and boring early game just to get another good run going. Why do people seem to love this horrible mechanic?

Try playing in wizmode and you'll quickly understand. The Game gets boring. Permadeath creates tension, it makes decisions matter. There's no tension if you can just load a save file.
Also, permadeath makes winning so much more satisfying.

[Roderic]

Life is hard, and then you die.

[sardonica]

You could always write a batch file to make a rolling backup of your saves folder.

[Moanerette]

The most satisfying moments I get from the game are escaping those apparently hopeless situations where you are on 5hp or less, with something about to hit you. If I could just take the hit, then reincarnate, this would be nothing like as much fun. I don't like playing felids for similar reasons.

[dpeg]

As I see it, demanding (players to cope with) permadeath is a luxury. Crawl is lucky enough (read: small enough, no money involved) to get away with it.
Games with permadeath demand more dedication from players. On the flipside, the feeling of gratification is stronger. Roguelikes work generally well with permadeath because of randomly generated content, which increases replayability. Scripted games would be much worse at this.
For example, shmups (2d scrolling shooters) have permadeath and are generally scripted. They get away with this for other reasons. From first-hand experience I can say that the permadeath shmups I beat had a much longer laster feeling of joy (during play and when winning) than the few I had with saving.

Finally, on the early game: It's not boring for everyone. If it is boring for you, try to find out why. In my opinion, serial vaults, new uniques and early portal vaults have worked wonders on early game variability. I hope that some day random gods will help there, too.

[acvar]

I like permadeath because it puts me out of my misery. At some point I have found a good weapon, I have reasonable protections and the game becomes pretty mindless and boring. I get lazy, stop focusing and just go through the motions. Thankfully something out of the ordinary comes along, kills me, and lets me start over. The downside is that the first few levels are boring, but then come the mid levels and things get interesting once again.

[Roderic]

First levels are still exciting for a caster in many games and for a fighter usually they are a breeze and last nothing.

[acvar]

First levels are still exciting for a caster in many games and for a fighter usually they are a breeze and last nothing.

I would use the term tedious for a caster. One spell, throwing lots of trash, lots of running, and waiting for mana to regen. The fact that I might die at this point is irrelevent since I have nothing invested in the character and the next one I start will be exactly the same.

[galehar]

The fact that I might die at this point is irrelevent since I have nothing invested in the character and the next one I start will be exactly the same.

Some people care about their win rate. For them, the early game is exciting, challenging and full of tension. If you don't care about death, the early game becomes boring, just like when save scumming. Trying to make every character survive makes the early game much more interesting.

[Grimm]

Trying to make every character survive makes the early game much more interesting.

This. When I started doing this I really started liking the game.

[palin]

Trying to make every character survive makes the early game much more interesting.

This. When I started doing this I really started liking the game.

Not only this, but also trying to save that hopeless randomized wanderer teach you some tricks up your sleeve for some other more promising character. That's why once in a while I play a CK.

[Roderic]

Practise makes perfect

[Tomato]

I don't love permadeath, it's not like I get bothered if a game doesn't have it, I just accept it as a genre convention and move on. If I die, well, that's an incentive to become a better player.

But it's the oppisite for me. The other day I was playing FTL (another rougelike) and died on the final boss. Did that make me want to try a little harder to beat it? No it pissed me off and made me not want to play again because I had to go all the way through the game again just to get another chance at the boss.

Why can't the game have a checkpoint system? If you die have the game restore that checkpoint, with your character back at how it was back when you reached the chechpoint. Unvisited terrain could be re-randomly generated so you couldn't just memorise floors. You could have the number of times you used a checkpoint tracked in the character dump for highscores and if you like permadeath you could still just go delete your character if you die.

[Hirasi]

What I like about permadeath is that it's an incentive to use limited resources. In games that allow reloading from save as often as you want, I'd always try to use as little resources as possible to complete every task so that I'd have more saved up for later, but then I'd end up not using many items at all.

[Tomato]

You could also just use wizard mode for the same result, much less work than implementing that.

But doing that feels like cheating.

[TwilightPhoenix]

What I like about permadeath is that it's an incentive to use limited resources. In games that allow reloading from save as often as you want, I'd always try to use as little resources as possible to complete every task so that I'd have more saved up for later, but then I'd end up not using many items at all.

This, so much this. So many RPGs I played before Crawl I'd reach the end with something like 80 healing potions I had been saving in case I needed them. I didn't. If anything else, Crawl taught me to stop doing tedious things, such as running back to town to heal in games that allow that, to conserve resources that aren't all that worth conserving since attempting to to the same in Crawl will kill you.

You could also just use wizard mode for the same result, much less work than implementing that.

But doing that feels like cheating.

Well, that's because it technically is. As is save scumming. But if you don't want perma-death, those are your only options besides modifying your own copy of the game.

[nicolae]

have you considered that roguelikes might not be for you

[Kate]

Wizmode is your answer, yes. If it feels like cheating, that's because it is. Feel free to count your wizmode respawns and calculate your own score and factor them in or something, or code checkpoints yourself and add them to your build, but don't expect any developer to put any effort into doing that for you.

See also every other thread about save points/respawning/permadeath ever, the "won't do" page on the wiki, etc.

[Roderic]

Many early arcade video-games, with final bosses and so on, were permadeath when they appeared in machines and you have to invest coins to play again. I'm not so old but I've played them also.

And nobody complained but became progressively better and better. Nowadays many games with saving systems last for 20 h of entertainment and nothing else. Crawl replayability is by far larger, and the thrill of real catastrophe if you do something wrong but with all the time of the world to think is what distinguishes rogue-likes from other tactic games.

[Grimm]

"Fun" in the American sense of easy victory is not a design goal of roguelikes.

[Roderic]

Is ther some german term to describe "joy on the defeat" ?

[pratamawirya]

have you considered that roguelikes might not be for you

This thread should just end or explode in someone's face after this is said.

[Tomato]

have you considered that roguelikes might not be for you

Roguelikes are fun besides stupid permadeath.

[galehar]

have you considered that roguelikes might not be for you

Roguelikes are fun besides stupid permadeath.

Seriously, try wizmode or save scumming. You'll realize that they are fun because of permadeath, not besides.

[pratamawirya]

People gave you a bunch of reason to consider liking permadeath, and you still (stubbornly, I should say) say it's stupid. Okay.

[Tomato]

People gave you a bunch of reason to consider liking permadeath, and you still (stubbornly, I should say) say it's stupid. Okay.

I read and thought about the reason they gave and I still don't like it. I wouldn't be so stubborn about it if I wasn't right.

[nicolae]

have you considered that roguelikes might not be for you

Roguelikes are fun besides stupid permadeath.

Surely there are other genres you enjoy that don't include features you hate, though.

[Grimm]

Let's everyone respect other people's opinions. - signed, A Moderator.

[Tomato]

have you considered that roguelikes might not be for you

Roguelikes are fun besides stupid permadeath.

Surely there are other genres you enjoy that don't include features you hate, though.

Yes, and?

[galehar]

This has already been discussed to death and is on the won't do list. The OP doesn't even want bother to have a civil discussion but just keeps pushing for it. Answer is no. Thread locked.