Ereshkigal and Greater Demonic Horde

[sgrunt]

On IRC recently, the subject came up of how comparatively less lethal Ereshkigal is compared to the rest of the hell lords. At time of writing, on the public servers in games of 0.10 and above, Antaeus has 28 (direct or indirect) kills, Asmodeus 21, Dispater 20, and Ereshkigal only 5.

The idea was floated then to replace Ereshkigal's bolt of cold with a new spell which would summon some non-trivial amount of demons, particularly greater demons. I've tentatively dubbed the concept Greater Demonic Horde, and envision an implementation similar to Demonic Horde except that 1-4 (varying with spell power) of the summons are greater demons and the rest common demons.

(If we were feeling generous, perhaps the player would eventually be able to cast this as a level 9 or so summoning spell, subject to the same summoning conditions as the other demon summoning spells - in particular, 1s eventually turning hostile before they disappear. I have a gut feeling that that might prove to be excessively powerful, though not necessarily to the same level as, say, Summon Horrible Things.)

Thoughts?

[XuaXua]

In my opinion one of the challenges of Cerebov is his bodyguard. Rather than a summons, give the Ereshkigal appearance vault a number of bodyguards.

[crate]

This would indeed make Ereshkigal harder but my first impression is that it sounds more annoying than dangerous (since if Eresh actually summons things you teleport away and hope to get luckier the next time, like what you do against Cerebov if he summons some 1's you can't immediately kill).

It will kill people who don't do that though.

[palin]

In my opinion one of the challenges of Cerebov is his bodyguard. Rather than a summons, give the Ereshkigal appearance vault a number of bodyguards.

I agree. And maybe (big thing this), make summoners summon something when awake out of LOS. This would help Elf branc when elf summoners are so weak they always die unless you find 'em in numbers or with other elves... and rendere unique summoners deadly.

[Stormfox]

Ereshkigal couldn't kill me when I popped out of the Abyss five tiles away from her at 20% of max health. And I'm in awfulplayers-for-life. I was more afraid of the reapers, especially the one that had banished me in the first place (bloody distortion scythe).

Bodyguards, yes. Out-of-LOS summoning, no. Look up pre-SS Crawl 4.1.0 and its enemy summoner AI to see how badly that can turn out. (To summarize, a powerful summoner like Boris would call up a few friends, teleport away, and then continue to summon, directing the summons at your last known position while moving away from that position. The consensus was that you had fewer than a hundred turns to get off the level or die, and fighting was not an option.)

[njvack]

(To summarize, a powerful summoner like Boris would call up a few friends, teleport away, and then continue to summon, directing the summons at your last known position while moving away from that position. The consensus was that you had fewer than a hundred turns to get off the level or die, and fighting was not an option.)

So, pretty much what players do with Summon Dragon now?

[eeviac]

Monster summoning is just as dumb and unfun as player summoning; it's just that the latter isn't limited by AI and thus can truly abuse it. I'm against adding more summoners/summoning to the game without the root problem being fixed.

while we're at it I wouldn't mind if all monster summoning was removed

[eeviac]

Wait a minute, even better idea:

Axe Eresh, move Gloorx to Tartarus, move dark rune to Enchanted Forest.

Everybody wins!

[mikee]

I am against greater demonic horde for reasons expressed above, and also note that it is equivalent to the older version of the monster greater demon spell, which was rather horrific.

I do agree that ereshkigal could use a buff and I mostly agree with the premise that the problem is the spellset. While a lot of changes to it would work as a buff, the challenge is finding a change that remains thematic without being annoying. Here are a few variants:

A) torment symbol, dispel undead
B) torment symbol, dispel undead, b.quicksilver
C) torment symbol, dispel undead (+suppression halo - this is not currently implemented and would most likely result in the most lethal of these variants)

[eeviac]

Giving Eresh torment and dispel makes her too much like gloorx-lite IMO. Quicksilver bolt sounds cool though.

[galehar]

Monster summoning is just as dumb and unfun as player summoning; it's just that the latter isn't limited by AI and thus can truly abuse it. I'm against adding more summoners/summoning to the game without the root problem being fixed.

The problem with monster summoning is very different than player one. And it requires a different fix. Player summoning needs a cap. Since the best way to attack a dangerous summoner is to teleport away when it summons until it doesn't, then maybe they need the opposite of a cap: a min. When a summoner is in LOS, if it has less than x summons, it summons more. A cap might be good too, though.

[eeviac]

I'm not sure that we're on the same page here. My problem with monster summoning is that it wastes game turns, resources, and my time, without adding a balanced challenge or reward. Either it's V's and 3's spamming 5's and r's, or it's L's and &'s spamming 1's/2's. The nature of most 1/2 spell sets makes it very dangerous to fight demon lords while in their LOS. If Cerebov and Mnoleg and Eresh were absolutely guaranteed to summon even a few dudes when they spotted you, they would be unfairly threatening. Not to mention your run of the mill elf demonoligists and liches.

[XuaXua]

Both monster and player summoning need caps/limits; then they can both summon as much as they want.

LIMIT SUMMONS
Cap equals some factor built from Summonings and Spellcasting or Evocations or Invocations, depending on the source.
Cap it at total hit dice of all currently summoned monsters. Summon demons near cap? Get a demon at the most amount of hd that can be summoned.
Or... cast a new summon? Earliest summons (all your recently summoned small mammals) vanish to compensate the HD needed for the new summon (oh hey, a dragon!)

Don't count hostile summons towards the cap.
Permanent summons don't count towards cap.
Summons from different groupings (Spellcasting / Evocations / Invocations) don't stack, so your temporary Angel from TSO doesn't count against your limit when casting Summon Small Mammals.

LIMIT DISTANCE
Out of line of sight of caster? Percentage chance of summon disappearing is multiplied by 2 for every square of distance.

Let them all summon how much of whatever they want as much as they want when out of sight of enemy.

[galehar]

I'm not sure that we're on the same page here. My problem with monster summoning is that it wastes game turns, resources, and my time, without adding a balanced challenge or reward. Either it's V's and 3's spamming 5's and r's, or it's L's and &'s spamming 1's/2's. The nature of most 1/2 spell sets makes it very dangerous to fight demon lords while in their LOS. If Cerebov and Mnoleg and Eresh were absolutely guaranteed to summon even a few dudes when they spotted you, they would be unfairly threatening. Not to mention your run of the mill elf demonoligists and liches.

Then nerf their summoning spells. Seems more interesting to have a consistent reasonable threat than an occasional overwhelming one.

[crate]

I am not really sure how making an enemy always replace a summon if it dies is interesting. It is scummy though (the current behaviour is not since which spell/action Cerebov takes is completely random as far as I know):

If you let Cerebov summon any single 1 or 2 and replace it if it dies but not summon more if he has one summon, then what you are encouraging is having the player enter LOS, check if Cerebov's summon is the least-dangerous monster he is allowed to summon, and leaving and returning later if it is not. No one who thinks about how this mechanic works would choose to fight Cerebov alongside a Brimstone fiend; they would instead choose a lorocyproca or a balrug or a hell beast or something as Cerebov's ally. The way it works now doesn't allow for scumming like this. This extends upward to whatever number of summons you have him create, you are just encouraging scumming for an increasingly rare occurrence (since now I need two hell beasts instead of just one from Cerebov's sgd).

You will probably kill many players who do not do this.

And letting Cerebov summon only a single type of ally (to get around the scumming above) then imo that is less fun than how Cerebov is now.

I think enemy summon greater demon is fine as it is: it is always dangerous, it is not super spammy. In extended in particular you are probably well-equipped to kill off the summons if you choose, and that is often less dangerous than running away. The problematic enemy summons are either ones that will never kill you or ones that produce more than one monster imo. Of course the worst are the summons that fall into both categories: 5 spam and spammals in particular.

[pubby]

This might be a stupid idea, but what if Ereshkigal could turn invisible and wasn't visible even with SInv? The summons would then be removed as they would give her position away.

Anyway, Ereshkigal in mythology a goddess of the undead, so I don't know why she summons demons. Maybe her bodyguards could be reanimated uniques you have slayed or something.

[eeviac]

Anyway, Ereshkigal in mythology a goddess of the undead, so I don't know why she summons demons. Maybe her bodyguards could be reanimated uniques you have slayed or something.

Now this could be interesting. Maybe on Tar7 generation the game would pick (with a certain min HD) a handful of dead uniques and recreate them as those yred bound soul things in Eresh's room. It would be cool but perhaps not threatening enough, because you already killed these dudes, why wouldn't you be able to do it again?

[Mankeli]

So the new rule would be: don't kill any of the most dangerous uniques if aiming for a 15-runer. I agree that the idea is interesting though. Too bad, that many of the most dangerous uniques are not even suitable for this (Mennas, Ignacio, Mara, Boris, (and Pan and Hell bossess)).

[Tiber]

I like the ghosts of uniques idea. You could scale them up by claiming that Ereshkigal is empowering them. I might even add player ghosts, or "made up" player ghosts (generated sort of like pan lords).

[eeviac]

FR ultra sigmund ghost who shouts 'When you struck me down I became more powerful than you could have ever imagined!' while dropping firestorms on your head.

[KoboldLord]

I am not really sure how making an enemy always replace a summon if it dies is interesting. It is scummy though (the current behaviour is not since which spell/action Cerebov takes is completely random as far as I know):

If you let Cerebov summon any single 1 or 2 and replace it if it dies but not summon more if he has one summon, then what you are encouraging is having the player enter LOS, check if Cerebov's summon is the least-dangerous monster he is allowed to summon, and leaving and returning later if it is not. No one who thinks about how this mechanic works would choose to fight Cerebov alongside a Brimstone fiend; they would instead choose a lorocyproca or a balrug or a hell beast or something as Cerebov's ally. The way it works now doesn't allow for scumming like this. This extends upward to whatever number of summons you have him create, you are just encouraging scumming for an increasingly rare occurrence (since now I need two hell beasts instead of just one from Cerebov's sgd).

Heh. More like, you summon one ally of your own, and then you repeatedly Abjure or kill whatever Cerebov summons, so he's locked into a cycle of constantly trying to meet his minimum ally threshold instead of making attacks that deal actual damage. All while your own ally or the edge of your AoE is chipping him down.

[XuaXua]

I am not really sure how making an enemy always replace a summon if it dies is interesting. It is scummy though (the current behaviour is not since which spell/action Cerebov takes is completely random as far as I know):

If you let Cerebov summon any single 1 or 2 and replace it if it dies but not summon more if he has one summon, then what you are encouraging is having the player enter LOS, check if Cerebov's summon is the least-dangerous monster he is allowed to summon, and leaving and returning later if it is not. No one who thinks about how this mechanic works would choose to fight Cerebov alongside a Brimstone fiend; they would instead choose a lorocyproca or a balrug or a hell beast or something as Cerebov's ally. The way it works now doesn't allow for scumming like this. This extends upward to whatever number of summons you have him create, you are just encouraging scumming for an increasingly rare occurrence (since now I need two hell beasts instead of just one from Cerebov's sgd).

Heh. More like, you summon one ally of your own, and then you repeatedly Abjure or kill whatever Cerebov summons, so he's locked into a cycle of constantly trying to meet his minimum ally threshold instead of making attacks that deal actual damage. All while your own ally or the edge of your AoE is chipping him down.

Cerebov summon delay = 0.00 aka automatically replenished unless he's dead.

[mageykun]

So the new rule would be: don't kill any of the most dangerous uniques if aiming for a 15-runer. I agree that the idea is interesting though. Too bad, that many of the most dangerous uniques are not even suitable for this (Mennas, Ignacio, Mara, Boris, (and Pan and Hell bossess)).

If you purposefully avoid killing uniques, then Ershkigal could just draw from the pool of ungenerated uniques. It's not like the game ever places them all in one run through. Or she could just cheat and create doppelgangers.

[pubby]

So the new rule would be: don't kill any of the most dangerous uniques if aiming for a 15-runer. I agree that the idea is interesting though. Too bad, that many of the most dangerous uniques are not even suitable for this (Mennas, Ignacio, Mara, Boris, (and Pan and Hell bossess)).

If you purposefully avoid killing uniques, then Ershkigal could just draw from the pool of ungenerated uniques. It's not like the game ever places them all in one run through. Or she could just cheat and create doppelgangers.

This, in combination with balanced scaling as previously suggested would prevent people from killing uniques just to avoid them in Tar. Well, unless you're a healer.

I like the randomly generated uniques too, although those tend to be uninteresting. Maybe just have a new Tar unique that you never see alive.

[Mankeli]

So the new rule would be: don't kill any of the most dangerous uniques if aiming for a 15-runer. I agree that the idea is interesting though. Too bad, that many of the most dangerous uniques are not even suitable for this (Mennas, Ignacio, Mara, Boris, (and Pan and Hell bossess)).

If you purposefully avoid killing uniques, then Ershkigal could just draw from the pool of ungenerated uniques. It's not like the game ever places them all in one run through. Or she could just cheat and create doppelgangers.

This, in combination with balanced scaling as previously suggested would prevent people from killing uniques just to avoid them in Tar. Well, unless you're a healer.

I like the randomly generated uniques too, although those tend to be uninteresting. Maybe just have a new Tar unique that you never see alive.

"Balanced scaling" sounds nice but how to you make the "balanced scaling" formula apply properly to all uniques (if this was the idea)? If you cannot, are you suggesting of making Tar copies of every unique that leaves a corpse? Sounds like an awfully lot of work to me. The randomly generated uniques idea sounds more like replacing Eresh altogether with a random unique pan lord.

[galehar]

Why not just give her a few ancient liches and greater mummies buddies? Or maybe a new undead unique.

[mikee]

Ereshkigal already has decently powerful buddies (shadow fiend and reaper). I think the inconsistency is that she herself is the weakest of the hell/pan lords - even Geryon is stronger.

Here is another idea I forgot to mention, which has had a bit of positive feedback on IRC: what about giving Ereshkigal the silence spell?

[pubby]

Here is another idea I forgot to mention, which has had a bit of positive feedback on IRC: what about giving Ereshkigal the silence spell?

A fast character that silences and deals extra damage to the undead sounds exactly like Mennas.

[mikee]

and deals extra damage to the undead sounds exactly like Mennas.

Deals this how? Ereshkigal doesn't actually have dispel undead, if that's what you mean, nor am I suggesting (this time) giving her it. And in any case, there would be plenty of differences from Mennas, wouldn't there?

[KoboldLord]

A fast character that silences and deals extra damage to the undead sounds exactly like Mennas.

Mennas doesn't have a posse of powerful Torment-using spellcasters who are all immune to silence, so a hypothetical Silence-Ereshkigal would be pretty different than him after all.

[XuaXua]

That just brings up the question as to why Boris would bother having memorized throw flame?

[cerebovssquire]

That just brings up the question as to why Boris would bother having memorized throw flame?

he doesn't... nor was minmay saying that he does

(Also, Silence for Ereshkigal sounds like a really good idea)

[pubby]

Deals this how? Ereshkigal doesn't actually have dispel undead, if that's what you mean, nor am I suggesting (this time) giving her it. And in any case, there would be plenty of differences from Mennas, wouldn't there?

Yes, they are quite different and I was wrong to say they were exactly alike. I suppose the similarity I see is in how they would be fought - would you really fight Eresh in a much different way than you would Mennas? I'm not sure how to answer this, especially without playing it, but I will guess it plays out the same.

It's like how boris is exactly like sigmund because they both have invisibility and throw flame

Except there are many other enemies that have invisibility and throw flame. Mennas is the only enemy in the game who casts silence as far as I know. He's unique and special. That's sort of the way extended boss uniques should be - for instance Cerebov is the only enemy with fire storm, Asmodeus is the only enemy with ring of flames, and Mnoleg has summon eyeballs. Eresh would be improved flavor-wise by being given a unique spell of her own, silence, but with Mennas around it just doesn't feel unique.

Mennas doesn't have a posse of powerful Torment-using spellcasters who are all immune to silence, so a hypothetical Silence-Ereshkigal would be pretty different than him after all.

9 other runes already overuse torment and hellfire for much of their challenge. Silence is interesting, dispel undead is interesting, but please no more tormenting demons.

[cerebovssquire]

Silence by Mennas silences himself iirc, makes him focus on hitting you, making you weaker and himself more dangerous. This is different to Ereshkigal silence, because she is !sil and will continue casting, like any demon except Geryon. In addition, Mennas isn't even the only monster who uses silence right now (spectres, and pan lords actually cast the spell), and because of what I pointed out above the effects of silence would be different. In most games, you won't encounter silence pan lords (from personal experience, here, so to have the unique situation of "my spell-based character can't cast spells (or use invocations, important for many melee/ranged-based characters) right now, but everyone around me can" is good.
In regards to torment: KoboldLord wasn't suggesting adding more torment, I think, but keeping the tormentors already present in the Tar:7 vault. And really, if we want to cut down on torment damage in extended, we would never remove it from Tartarus which is pretty much the perfect place for it. Cut it out from Gehenna if you must but it really is a weird idea to remove it from Tartarus.

Another thing that would boost Ereshkigal: is it possible to make her paralysis harder to resist?

[eeviac]

Mennas doesn't have a posse of powerful Torment-using spellcasters who are all immune to silence, so a hypothetical Silence-Ereshkigal would be pretty different than him after all.

9 other runes already overuse torment and hellfire for much of their challenge. Silence is interesting, dispel undead is interesting, but please no more tormenting demons.

10 if we include abyss! (this isn't a new issue but it's why I'm pulling hard for enchanted forest to take one of the pan runes)

[pubby]

Why not just give her a few ancient liches and greater mummies buddies? Or maybe a new undead unique.

Well, I see her as being the ruler of the dead, not the undead. This was the basis of that dead uniques idea I had as it would show hell as being the place of afterlife. Of course right now tar spawns plenty of crypt monsters, and if this isn't changed then I think a few liches would up the challenge and be a reasonable change.

Another thing that would boost Ereshkigal: is it possible to make her paralysis harder to resist?

This will increase the kill count but not the difficulty.

[njvack]

I'm all for the Silence idea. If she gets it, her vault might be a good place for a couple curse skulls -- this is one of a few places "just walk away" isn't the solution for them.

As an aside: if she gets Silence, should she stay fast? It seems like it might be more "fun" if she stays with her Fiend Squad.

[XuaXua]

What about using silence spectres in the vaults and leaving her immune to silence instead of giving her silence?

[Konebred]

What if she had the ability to pass through walls like those rock worms? You could explain it as her being some sort of specter or incorporeal demon or something, I dunno.

[cerebovssquire]

Careful with that, one of her vaults is actually based on the fact that she can't move through walls encasing her, and I'm not sure how good allowing her to leave other vaults would be in regards to the rune.

[XuaXua]

Make it so that the travel preference of these guardians is to be within X squares of the rune, with the potential to travel further, but the preference to return to the rune. They should always know where the rune is, and preference tracking anyone who picked it up.

[galehar]

Make it so that the travel preference of these guardians is to be within X squares of the rune, with the potential to travel further, but the preference to return to the rune.

They already do, it's called the patrolling behaviour.

They should always know where the rune is, and preference tracking anyone who picked it up.

Yes, patrolling needs to be changed so they track the player once the rune is picked.

[evilmike]

The only good idea in this thread (re: Ereshkigal) is the one about giving her silence. Probably replacing one of her bolt spells. I'd swap out bolt of draining, since that's her weakest spell. Maybe put silence in her emergency spell slot too.

This idea makes her summons more dangerous without resorting to spam. It also prevents her from being a gloorx-clone. The only thing I worry about is that silence has a small range, but her speed likely makes up for that.