Rods

[galehar]

(new thread to give grunt some feedback)
Existing rods are problematic. Stuff like dMsl and freezing cloud shouldn't be in a rod. Also, I think it'd be better if they had a single spell for a better interface. Even better if it's a unique effect like the new lightning rod. In any case, the spell list allowed on randart rods should be quite restrictive, not just a level cap.
Maybe introducing spell failure based on evocations would be good too.

[jejorda2]

Stuff like dMsl and freezing cloud shouldn't be in a rod.

What does this mean? How are dMsl and freezing cloud alike? Is it because their effects are largely independent of spellpower, and thus too powerful with no investment when using a rod?

[XuaXua]

Make recharge rate scale.

Rod recharges quicker the more charges it contains and vice versa; this adds a minor penalization to using more mp draining spells.

[eeviac]

I want to see rods get some of crawl's more interesting spells that I don't usually get around to using, stuff like

Ring of Flames
Haunt
Malign Gateway
Death Channel
Orb of Destruction
Alistair's Intoxication
Conjure Ball Lightning
Leda's Liquifaction
Inner Flame

Simulacrum would be really cool too, but can't work with the chunk wielding mechanic.

[Roderic]

Why has smiting been removed from the rods ?

[sgrunt]

Existing rods are problematic. Stuff like dMsl and freezing cloud shouldn't be in a rod.

In any case, the spell list allowed on randart rods should be quite restrictive, not just a level cap.

Currently, there are provisions for such a restricted list. Right now, the only spells that are on it are brands (and possibly Tukima's Dance; I know more than one person has suggested that it should be on the list but I can't remember if I added it in).

Also, I think it'd be better if they had a single spell for a better interface. Even better if it's a unique effect like the new lightning rod.

Would this be applicable to all rods, or just randart rods? Consistency would be good.

Maybe introducing spell failure based on evocations would be good too.

Interesting idea; it would make rods less attractive to most and primarily usable by, say, artificers and/or Nemelex worshippers, and could probably lead to some restrictions being relaxed (level 7 cap instead of level 6?).

I want to see rods get some of crawl's more interesting spells that I don't usually get around to using, stuff like

Ring of Flames
Haunt
Malign Gateway
Death Channel
Orb of Destruction
Alistair's Intoxication
Conjure Ball Lightning
Leda's Liquifaction
Inner Flame

A good deal of these are level 7 spells (this ties in with possibly moving the cap to level 7 instead of level 6, particularly if evocations skill is needed).

I'll probably tinker with this some more in the near future and see how it turns out.

[Bloax]

I think there shouldn't be a hard level cap, but rather a "point" limit, with more powerful spells (like Malign Gateway/Orb of Destruction) taking up more points, and things like Inner Flame taking much less. (It's a situational utility spell, why shouldn't it.)

Of course with a set of exclusions, for stuff like the level 9 elemental spells.

[mageykun]

I think rods might work better if they were more randomized, instead of of pulling from a set pool of 5 or 6 rods. Instead of generating a rod of <foo> with a preset spell list, each rod created should say, roll for the number of spells, and then roll for spells individually. If you still want the rods to have themes or flavor, you could probably borrow or adapt the logic behind setting up randart books.

For instance, part of the reason a rod of cold is so overpowered is that the odds of getting one aren't terrrible. More variety makes any one power spike harder to rely on, and more of an acceptable lucky edge than a semi-reliable edge when it does turn up.

[njvack]

If we're thinking about a major rods revamp, I gotta say I like the design of Brogue's staves... though I don't know if Crawl is too different for that to fit in here.

[galehar]

Also, I think it'd be better if they had a single spell for a better interface. Even better if it's a unique effect like the new lightning rod.

Would this be applicable to all rods, or just randart rods? Consistency would be good.

Well, if we go with one spell per rod, that would be for all rods

[eeviac]

If we're that restricted on what spells can go on a rod, and limit one spell per rod, rods will become glorified wands.

[Bloax]

They'd become self-recharging wands. :p

[sgrunt]

Changes I've made in response to this thread so far:

• Spells assigned to a rod can now be up to level 7, though the complete set of spells can be no more than 15 spell levels and no more than 5 spells (in practice, anything more than one or two spells seems to be rare).
• The list of vetoed spells has been expanded (currently it is minmay's list; more discussion over what spells should/should not be on that list is welcome).
• Rod evocations are now subject to spell failure based on the player's evocations skill. (Yes, this includes pre-existing rods.)

Apart from the latter change, I'm mainly focusing on randart rods don't plan to touch currently-existing rods (though if there's a consensus to change those outside of my randart rod work, it's certainly something I will consider looking into).

[eeviac]

I want to see ring of flames and malign gateway on rods, but I don't have any justification beyond "'would be really freakin' cool"

[Petro]

Glad to see rods getting some love. I'd like to see evocations in general get a revamp, as the whole "spells without MP" thing doesn't work very well. To justify the existence of identical spells evocations effects need to be very difficult to find, strictly inferior, or both. The exception has been Nemelex and... well that's been no end of trouble hasn't it. The same goes for the artificer class, decently powerful but very confused and not very interesting.

A common theme of evokables seems to be random performance. Could we make it so that as skill in evocations increases reliability as much as power? If fighters draw power from their strength and casters from their intelligence, evokers could be said to be powered by wisdom and lore. So with a poor understanding of evocations one might cast fireball in their own face instead of iron shot. That way we could still ensure rods require a degree of skill to use without carbon copying casting mechanics anymore. Probably rife with balance issues but do you think the concept holds merit?

[evilmike]

Also, I think it'd be better if they had a single spell for a better interface. Even better if it's a unique effect like the new lightning rod.

This is something I agree with, and have brought up a few times. The best rods are the ones that have a single, unique spell. I don't really think that *all* rods need to be single spell, but it would be nice if most of them were. The rod with bolt of inacc and the one with summon swarm could probably be made single-spell (the other spells featured in these rods are a lot weaker and more boring). There's also some potential for monster spells. Energy bolt (cast by eyes of devastation) would be a fun spell, although I don't know if it would be balanced.

[eeviac]

Inacc could be a single spell rod.

I don't know how comparable energy bolt and inacc are, but if inacc was a spell, that+TSO would break the game. (please don't nerf TSO inacc)

[XuaXua]

A common theme of evokables seems to be random performance. Could we make it so that as skill in evocations increases reliability as much as power? If fighters draw power from their strength and casters from their intelligence, evokers could be said to be powered by wisdom and lore.

I'm an advocate for Evocations Skill to affect Scroll usage (before the selectable training, I would push for Scroll usage to train Evocations, not Spellcasting), but that's me.

[XuaXua]

Rod that shoots webs.

[evilmike]

I don't know how comparable energy bolt and inacc are, but if inacc was a spell, that+TSO would break the game. (please don't nerf TSO inacc)

Not comparable at all. Energy bolt is a bolt spell that causes things to explode. It's sort of like "bolt of disintigration", but without a MR check.

[roctavian]

From the veto list, I think it actually could be fun to have a unique rod with Sticks to Snakes that turns back into rod form after it's done being a snake for a while.

[jejorda2]

Do randart rods have a chance to grant resistances or other passive artefact properties?

Do they have higher chances of having high mana reserves or recharge rates?

Can they be improved with recharge scrolls?

If they are *just* rods of single spells with no variability, they don't seem like there is anything random to make them randarts, and are simply new single spell rods. I'm not sure new single spell rods are bad, but they aren't randarts.

[Tiber]

I believe the ones sgrunt made are just like randart books; they just contain random spells, sometimes with an element or spell level as a theme. So they're not really artifacts so much as just randomly-generated rods.

I also think a rod of disintegration or a rod of random effects (though maybe tweaked to avoid spamming yourself to cure rotted HP) could be fun.

[XuaXua]

From the veto list, I think it actually could be fun to have a unique rod with Sticks to Snakes that turns back into rod form after it's done being a snake for a while.

This.

[pubby]

IMO rods should have 100% success rate to distinguish them from decks and normal spells, but 'spellpower' based on evocations skill should have a huge effect.

For instance, there could be a "summon reptile" rod which reminds me of call canine.
At 0 evocations you would mostly get giant geckos
At 5 evocations you could get giant newts
At 15 evocations you could get baby alligators
... and so on
And at 25 evocations you could get dragons

A wand of blasting could go magic dart -> IMB -> iron shot -> OOD -> LCS, with bolt of inaccuracy in there somewhere.

A wand of smiting could go smite -> airstrike -> freezing cloud -> fire storm (extremely rare)

A wand of crowd control could go summon mammal -> meph -> OTR -> fireball -> poison cloud -> ice storm (extremely rare)

[jejorda2]

A wand of crowd control could go summon mammal -> meph -> OTR -> fireball -> poison cloud -> ice storm (extremely rare)

That would be weird, since they all have different targeting. You wouldn't know how to position yourself.

[Tenaya]

Stuff like dMsl and freezing cloud shouldn't be in a rod.

What does this mean? How are dMsl and freezing cloud alike? Is it because their effects are largely independent of spellpower, and thus too powerful with no investment when using a rod?

Deflect missile and Freezing cloud are the only reasons I pick up rods. The rest are too stressful on hunger and inventory beyond the early game.

[sgrunt]

I believe the ones sgrunt made are just like randart books; they just contain random spells, sometimes with an element or spell level as a theme. So they're not really artifacts so much as just randomly-generated rods.

Correct.

[pratamawirya]

Sorry if OT, but can anyone tell me what's up with TSO and bolt of inacc?

[mageykun]

Sorry if OT, but can anyone tell me what's up with TSO and bolt of inacc?

Bolt of innac is pretty powerful, but only effective if the target has a low dodge chance.

TSO gives a passive halo that illuminates pretty much everything in LOS, making them easier to hit.

Put together, that's a nice combo. Especially since there's a few nasty things in the post-endgame that qualify as low EV tanks.

[pratamawirya]

Oh, I thought the halo only makes monsters easier to hit in melee (well, the knowledge bots say so).

[JeffQyzt]

I believe the ones sgrunt made are just like randart books; they just contain random spells, sometimes with an element or spell level as a theme. So they're not really artifacts so much as just randomly-generated rods.

Correct.

They are actually randarts, though, so you couldn't enchant them further.

[Igxfl]

Perhaps if reasonably high evocations is required for a good rod-casting success rate, it could also mitigate the hunger effects a bit. Currently the food cost of rods seems way greater than that of spells and invocations.

[BlackSheep]

Evocations already mitigates rod food cost. It just requires a much higher skill than Spellcasting because Int isn't part of the equation.

[BlackSheep]

Random idea: make Str affect rod hunger the way Int affects spell hunger
(I know, I know...)

[galehar]

Also, I think it'd be better if they had a single spell for a better interface. Even better if it's a unique effect like the new lightning rod.

This is something I agree with, and have brought up a few times. The best rods are the ones that have a single, unique spell. I don't really think that *all* rods need to be single spell, but it would be nice if most of them were. The rod with bolt of inacc and the one with summon swarm could probably be made single-spell (the other spells featured in these rods are a lot weaker and more boring). There's also some potential for monster spells. Energy bolt (cast by eyes of devastation) would be a fun spell, although I don't know if it would be balanced.

So, let's give all "normal" rods a single unique spell, and randart rods several random normal spells. What about spell failure, good idea? Maybe the effect of evoc on hunger could be buffed a bit too.

[danr]

From the veto list, I think it actually could be fun to have a unique rod with Sticks to Snakes that turns back into rod form after it's done being a snake for a while.

Way back when I played AD&D (like, 20 years ago), my character (a half-orc cleric) had a staff that did exactly that. It would turn into a snake and entangle an enemy. It was pretty kewl.

[danr]

I want a Rod of Apportation.

[JeffQyzt]

You just want the rod of apportation to steal the Book from Trog's burning book vault

[XuaXua]

From the veto list, I think it actually could be fun to have a unique rod with Sticks to Snakes that turns back into rod form after it's done being a snake for a while.

Way back when I played AD&D (like, 20 years ago), my character (a half-orc cleric) had a staff that did exactly that. It would turn into a snake and entangle an enemy. It was pretty kewl.

Evocations level determines the type of serpent. Turns back into a rod if killed; can be wielded by an enemy and re-used.

[dd]

Also, you can grab the serpent from its tail and wield it as a weapon. When you hit enemies with it, it bites them and causes poisoning.

[sardonica]

Also, you can grab the serpent from its tail and wield it as a weapon. When you hit enemies with it, it bites them and causes poisoning.

If we add this we also need to add a ranged living weapon

Bring back Mountain Dwarves! Now tossable!