Remove floor stashes


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 11:46

Remove floor stashes

You're clearing out vault 8 and use up you're running low on healing. OK, to be safe you should go recharge your healing wand and so you control-f for recharging. You travel to the scrolls, but have to deal with a ton of popcorn on the way. Once there, you spend a minute or two micromanaging your items, trying to make room for the loot you're going to find. Now you go back to the vaults, but once there you realize you stupidly forgot another item and so you go back. I don't see this as a good mechanic.

Having a floor stash pulls you out of the game.
Having a floor stash wastes your time micromanaging it.
Having a floor stash makes the dungeon your home. It makes you feel comfortable.

Anyway, here's an idea: you have a second magical inventory(s) that takes several turns to use and can only be used at certain places.

Details:
- It takes ~10 times as many turns than the normal inventory
- You cannot use it when enemies are in sight, and they will interrupt your transfers when they come into vision
- You cannot use it in the abyss, pan, hell branches, and portals
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 12:21

Re: Remove floor stashes

So... you want a bag of holding? Have fun with Sokoban.

Anyway it's not that hard to just stash stuff at the top of the branch entrance stairs or to have a bunch of small stashes in various places.
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 12:45

Re: Remove floor stashes

snow wrote:So... you want a bag of holding? Have fun with Sokoban.

Crawl already has a bag of holding. It's called Lair:2.

I tried to keep the semantics and uses of this proposal as close to the current floor stashes as possible, thus the restrictions. So keep in mind it shouldn't be much more powerful than the current system, and much much less powerful than the nethack item.

Anyway it's not that hard to just stash stuff at the top of the branch entrance stairs or to have a bunch of small stashes in various places.

The only thing I see different with this from lair stashes is that there would be less traveling time. Still has all the other problems.
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 12:58

Re: Remove floor stashes

pubby wrote:Crawl already has a bag of holding. It's called Lair:2.


Or, to be more precise, it has three: Temple, Lair:2 and Vestibule, the latter of which might be too dangerous for some characters to risk it. The most annoying travel times occur at the point a little before you've reached your next stash, especially when you're doing the bottom levels of Vault. A simpler solution might therefor be to just make the hall of blades two levels deep. That creates a new stash location, eliminating the long travel times around that point.
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 13:01

Re: Remove floor stashes

"Mechanic"?

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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 13:15

Re: Remove floor stashes

FalconNL wrote:
pubby wrote:Crawl already has a bag of holding. It's called Lair:2.


Or, to be more precise, it has three: Temple, Lair:2 and Vestibule, the latter of which might be too dangerous for some characters to risk it. The most annoying travel times occur at the point a little before you've reached your next stash, especially when you're doing the bottom levels of Vault. A simpler solution might therefor be to just make the hall of blades two levels deep. That creates a new stash location, eliminating the long travel times around that point.

I saw minmay had a suggestion of just having more temple portals scattered throughout the dungeon similiar to vestibule portals. IMO that's better than having to move stashes constantly.

"Mechanic"?

I might be using bad grammar but I meant this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_mechanics
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 13:28

Re: Remove floor stashes

pubby wrote:I saw minmay had a suggestion of just having more temple portals scattered throughout the dungeon similiar to vestibule portals. IMO that's better than having to move stashes constantly.


Agreed, that seems like a great idea. One portal every 3-5 floors should suffice to remove the tedious back-and-forth without providing too great a benefit.. The only consequence is that your stash will no longer be available on the orb run, but I can't see this ever being a problem. The hyper-paranoid can drag everything down to Lair:2 beforehand if they so desire.
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 13:56

Re: Remove floor stashes

I have an alternative proposal or complementary instead of spawning temples. Crawl simplified the tedium with shops mechanics existent in other RL making them not physically implemented but with a dialog, so... what if the same concept is applied to stashes ?

A new type of "shop" called storage where for a few bucks you can save your valuables and accessing them using a dialog. Flavour-wise has sense if we think that there are entrepeneurs who give a service to save explorers' possessions.
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 13:58

Re: Remove floor stashes

I've always liked the "many Temple entrances" idea most -- to prevent it from being a free, frequent portal to a safe level, make it take a while to go through the portal and warn if there's a monster in view. Or prevent healing, MP regen, and consumable use there.

Of course, Temple as a place where you explore religion AND dump a bunch of dungeon garbage is maybe not particularly compelling flavor. Not that it ever has been, but enshrining that behavior (ahem) doesn't feel super awesome...
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 14:12

Re: Remove floor stashes

pubby wrote:
"Mechanic"?

I might be using bad grammar but I meant this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_mechanics

Forgetting to take care of all of your inventory needs while visiting your stash is not a mechanic, it's poor planning on your part. Nor is it a requirement to bring all of your consumables all the way back to Lair.
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 14:29

Re: Remove floor stashes

"Inventory Management" would be a game system and monster item usage, inventory item destruction, and jelly item destruction are some of the game mechanics that play into that system. Added portals to Temple (and whatever rules those portals would involve) would indeed be game mechanics.

Right now, Crawl's inventory management is such that investing real life time gives you an in-game advantage with very little in-game cost or player thought. This is one of very few areas in which this is the case, and it stands out to me.

Adding ways to get to your accumulated pile 'o crap will help this somewhat, but not totally fix it. Inventory management in a game as big (both in terms of total number of items and game length) as Crawl is really hard. Compare: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/11/14/
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 14:53

Re: Remove floor stashes

njvack wrote:Inventory management in a game as big (both in terms of total number of items and game length) as Crawl is really hard.

Inventory management in Crawl: get every useful item until you either are burdened or run out of slots, then go drop some of it in your stash? Doesn't look that hard to me. A bit of a chore when you're a DEWz but that's it. Alternatively just leave everything everywhere and ctrl+f if you need something, which is probably smarter but doesn't really fill the OCD void in everyone of us.
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 15:00

Re: Remove floor stashes

What's so hard about pressing G1 (substitute any other waypoint you set for the 1, preferably set one in D on the vaults entrance), doing your inventory stuff, then pressing GV7? Sure, maybe there is some popcorn in between, but that's why we have tab. I don't see a problem with the current stash interface. Besides, most stuff you can just dump wherever and not care, because you really don't need most of the things you find. And when you need it you can ctrl-F it. Setting travel delay to -1 speeds things up quite a bit by the way.

That it is optimal to separate any launchers dropped by monsters from their ammunition is far far more annoying to me. The D command helps, but it's still annoying.
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 15:01

Re: Remove floor stashes

Maybe the solution is to enslave and have expedition porters for all your stuff
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 15:07

Re: Remove floor stashes

ebarrett wrote:Alternatively just leave everything everywhere and ctrl+f if you need something, which is probably smarter but doesn't really fill the OCD void in everyone of us.

I think the new autopickup menu will help a bit with that. By disabling autopick up for crap wands, you won't feel compelled to bring back this wand of magic darts from D:17 to L:2. It's when items are autopicked up that you feel like you have to stash them.
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 15:20

Re: Remove floor stashes

ebarrett wrote:
njvack wrote:Inventory management in a game as big (both in terms of total number of items and game length) as Crawl is really hard.

Inventory management in Crawl: get every useful item until you either are burdened or run out of slots, then go drop some of it in your stash? Doesn't look that hard to me.


Sorry, I was unclear: designing an elegant inventory management system in a game as big as Crawl is really hard.
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 15:24

Re: Remove floor stashes

Another potential approach would be to reduce/remove the effect STR has on your carrying capacity. This would mainly affect casters, since melee characters generally have enough strength to fill up all their inventory slots. Deep Elf Wizards, on the other hand, get encumbered lifting a napkin, which results in many more trips to the stash in the early game when you don't have any +STR gear yet. Obviously this reduces the usefulness of STR, so another solution would probably be better.
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Post Friday, 27th July 2012, 15:50

Re: Remove floor stashes

The only times I have problems with encumbrance:

I am speedrunning (in which case I don't want to drop items because going back to them costs turns)
I am playing a spriggan
I am worshipping Nemelex (and in this case I also run into the 52-item limit often)
I am using ranged combat

I have also never noticed losing an item from just dropping it on the floor.

Setting travel_delay=-1 saves a lot of real-time in traveling to items you have left on the floor.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 02:12

Re: Remove floor stashes

Right now, Crawl's inventory management is such that investing real life time gives you an in-game advantage with very little in-game cost or player thought. This is one of very few areas in which this is the case, and it stands out to me.

I completely agree.

I think the new autopickup menu will help a bit with that. By disabling autopick up for crap wands, you won't feel compelled to bring back this wand of magic darts from D:17 to L:2. It's when items are autopicked up that you feel like you have to stash them.

Unfortunately the people who are going to be turning off autopickup for certain items are going to the ones who wouldn't keep them in the first place. And new players already stash items that aren't autopickup by default - when I was a noob I would stash unusable artefacts just because they were shiny.

I have also never noticed losing an item from just dropping it on the floor.

I lost 2 cure mutation yesterday to jellies. I suppose if they were left on a staircase I could have gotten them in time but that seems spoilery.

Setting travel_delay=-1 saves a lot of real-time in traveling to items you have left on the floor.

I do this and it helps, but it still wastes time.


I'm mostly fine with the current encumbrance system, although I think the game could use less items. For instance, replace potion of brilliance, strength, agility with a single one that multiplies all your stats, possibly replacing berserk. Change Nemelex to insert cards into your decks instead of giving you new ones. Wand of flame, frost, and slowing could just be removed. Enchant weapon scrolls could be merged into 1.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 07:44

Re: Remove floor stashes

pubby wrote:For instance, replace potion of brilliance, strength, agility with a single one that multiplies all your stats, possibly replacing berserk. Change Nemelex to insert cards into your decks instead of giving you new ones. Wand of flame, frost, and slowing could just be removed. Enchant weapon scrolls could be merged into 1.


Agreed. I have never drunk a single agility potion because I just don't see any point to it. A potion of strength is probably useful for melee builds for a bit of extra damage, but for a caster it's floor trash. Potion of brilliance's only use is memorizing a difficult spell, but I prefer galehar's suggestion of just getting rid of spell memorization failure for anything you have at least 1% success in. As far as I'm concerned they can all be removed. In exchance, the frequency of gain STR/DEX/INT could be increased a little.

As for wands: Flame, Frost and Magic Darts are useless in anything but the very early game. Is it really necessary to have three variations of a low-level attack wand? I think Frost and Flame can be removed without causing problems. The same goes for the higher-level wands. I don't recall ever caring whether I had a wand of fire or cold. I suggest replacing all four (fireball, fire, cold, lightning) with a wand of Mystic Blast. My first wand of random effects always gets dropped immediately after "you feel this wand is rather unreliable", never to be picked up again. The same goes for draining. I personally never use the "MR" wands (confusion, enslavement, polymorph, slow) either, but I can see them being useful in some builds.

Scrolls: Replace all scrolls of enchant weapon X with enchant weapon III. Scroll of noise seems fairly pointless. You generally test out scrolls in safe locations, so there's not going to be much penalty to reading it and if you want to generate noise, can't you just yell? I don't think breaking the spell of mermaids and sirens warrants having an otherwise useless item.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 08:21

Re: Remove floor stashes

I disagree with the idea that players who spend time hauling items back to the lair gain any in-game advantage. Items are as safe as they ever need to be if you leave them on the floor right above you, unless you're worshiping Jiyva.

Stashing shit on Lair:2 wastes food and turns, which isn't a huge deal, but it also shows that players aren't bothering to use Ctrl-F as often as they should.

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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 08:50

Re: Remove floor stashes

FalconNL wrote:
pubby wrote:For instance, replace potion of brilliance, strength, agility with a single one that multiplies all your stats, possibly replacing berserk. Change Nemelex to insert cards into your decks instead of giving you new ones. Wand of flame, frost, and slowing could just be removed. Enchant weapon scrolls could be merged into 1.


Agreed. I have never drunk a single agility potion because I just don't see any point to it. A potion of strength is probably useful for melee builds for a bit of extra damage, but for a caster it's floor trash. Potion of brilliance's only use is memorizing a difficult spell, but I prefer galehar's suggestion of just getting rid of spell memorization failure for anything you have at least 1% success in. As far as I'm concerned they can all be removed. In exchance, the frequency of gain STR/DEX/INT could be increased a little.

Maybe if you used one or two you'd see the point? These items aren't just +stat. Agility gives you a big EV boost, might gives you a nice damage boost, and brilliance gives you a wizardry and power boost (letting you cast hard spells way before they are normally usable). If you can't find a use for these, it's your loss. I wouldn't rank any of these potions as being the most powerful ones, but they are nice to have. Note that in all three of these potions, the stat boost is the least significant effect.

Is it really necessary to have three variations of a low-level attack wand?

No. Few things are "necessary". If you follow this line of thinking, 3/4 of the things in Crawl would be removed. While I think there is potential in a very stripped-down roguelike which is designed with this mentality (Brogue is kind of like this), this is not the way Crawl is designed.

You are right that a wand of frost and wand of flame are pretty similar items. They are still different, however, and this small difference is enough that it makes sense to keep both of them.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 09:48

Re: Remove floor stashes

Maybe if you used one or two you'd see the point? These items aren't just +stat. Agility gives you a big EV boost, might gives you a nice damage boost, and brilliance gives you a wizardry and power boost (letting you cast hard spells way before they are normally usable). If you can't find a use for these, it's your loss. I wouldn't rank any of these potions as being the most powerful ones, but they are nice to have. Note that in all three of these potions, the stat boost is the least significant effect.


Part of the problem is that strength is of little use to casters and brilliance little use to pure melee. These could be combined into a "potion of power" that boosts both?

No. Few things are "necessary". If you follow this line of thinking, 3/4 of the things in Crawl would be removed. While I think there is potential in a very stripped-down roguelike which is designed with this mentality (Brogue is kind of like this), this is not the way Crawl is designed.

You are right that a wand of frost and wand of flame are pretty similar items. They are still different, however, and this small difference is enough that it makes sense to keep both of them.


They are not really different, just worse versions of other wands that are useless after D:6 and add nothing to the game. Couldn't they at least be redesigned into unique effects? Like wand of flame could do a red draconian breath attack (which is like a super conjure flame) and wand of frost slows enemies without rC (replacing wand of slowing).
Last edited by pubby on Saturday, 28th July 2012, 09:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 09:48

Re: Remove floor stashes

Wand of frost is very handy when dealing with early imps, which can be a nuisance if fought in melee and/or throwing; the same applies for wand of flame and phantoms or other undead.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 10:29

Re: Remove floor stashes

pubby wrote:
Maybe if you used one or two you'd see the point? These items aren't just +stat. Agility gives you a big EV boost, might gives you a nice damage boost, and brilliance gives you a wizardry and power boost (letting you cast hard spells way before they are normally usable). If you can't find a use for these, it's your loss. I wouldn't rank any of these potions as being the most powerful ones, but they are nice to have. Note that in all three of these potions, the stat boost is the least significant effect.


Part of the problem is that strength is of little use to casters and brilliance little use to pure melee. These could be combined into a "potion of power" that boosts both?

But hybrids are common and viable in Crawl.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 11:38

Re: Remove floor stashes

IMHO they are more then viable.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 13:14

Re: Remove floor stashes

Create shops that specifically act like storage facilities which have a limited space 20 items and cost a small fee to store and maybe a small fee to recover; that is where you put your cure mutation potions and ew3 scrolls, etc.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 13:38

Re: Remove floor stashes

I think that only the weight of equiped items should affect the char. And inventory must be endless and weightless, with several filters or bookmarks to help with management.

Or take the idea with "second magical inventory". Although I'd prefer to make it as 'sash' and 'backpack'. Sash is quantity and weight dependant, but items from it can be used without additional turns. And to get into backpack you'll need to spend one turn to open it, one turn to take/exchange item, and one more to close it (this way it's almost impossible to use items form backpack during fight, which is the main idea as I understand).
Last edited by white_noise on Saturday, 28th July 2012, 13:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 13:42

Re: Remove floor stashes

pubby wrote:Part of the problem is that strength is of little use to casters and brilliance little use to pure melee. These could be combined into a "potion of power" that boosts both?

Were you aware that potions of might also grant +1d10 melee damage? They can turn a fight from unwinnable to pretty trivial, even for "casters".
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 14:35

Re: Remove floor stashes

pubby wrote:Part of the problem is that strength is of little use to casters and brilliance little use to pure melee. These could be combined into a "potion of power" that boosts both?


Maybe strength potions can affect your body constitution having a little side effect on extending the good physical effects or attenuate the bad effects of next potions you quaff. For brilliance potions, an effect of shorten any kind confusion of mesmerizing effect you have besides the boost on INT.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 14:48

Re: Remove floor stashes

Might and agility potions are very good. They are also potion effects that are not replaceable by any other source, so they are arguably the most powerful potions in the game.

Brilliance is less good because it doesn't give you a power boost like the other do, but primarily it is a success boost ... and it is rare that you would learn a spell where the success boost is a really big deal in the first place. They are still good in the right situations (you just learned a spell and are going to an area with a lot of xp, like if you have Tornado at 25% fail or so and are going to enter V:8; or if you are going to Zot but want to take off your ring of wizardry in favor of a resistance) but less so than might/agility.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 21:12

Re: Remove floor stashes

Brilliance could affect your cleverness providing a boost for trap detection. This way may be useful to non-caster players.
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Post Saturday, 28th July 2012, 23:34

Re: Remove floor stashes

crate wrote:Brilliance is less good because it doesn't give you a power boost like the other do, but primarily it is a success boost ...

It does in fact give you a spell power boost, equivalent to 3 spell school levels. Certainly not much of a big deal once you start getting into high power stepdown levels though, yeah.

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Post Sunday, 29th July 2012, 04:39

Re: Remove floor stashes

Wait brilliance gives a power boost that is not the same as the int boost? I never knew that.

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Post Monday, 30th July 2012, 10:08

Re: Remove floor stashes

crate wrote:Wait brilliance gives a power boost that is not the same as the int boost? I never knew that.


Sometimes the wiki is right. :)
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Post Wednesday, 1st August 2012, 00:48

Re: Remove floor stashes

crate wrote:Wait brilliance gives a power boost that is not the same as the int boost? I never knew that.

It should probably trigger a level of "You feel a surge of power!"
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Post Wednesday, 1st August 2012, 02:43

Re: Remove floor stashes

palin wrote:
crate wrote:Wait brilliance gives a power boost that is not the same as the int boost? I never knew that.


Sometimes the wiki is right. :)


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