Proposal: Making the orb return run more dangerous

[ClawlessVictory]

I've never died making the return run with the orb, and to be honest, it doesn't feel nearly as dangerous as it should. I was thinking, how about if once you pick up the orb, you can no longer cast spells? But then that wouldn't really be fair to caster classes. So how about as soon as you pick it up, you gain a random, negative mutation? And every 50 or so turns you gain another?

Maybe it's a dumb idea, but I'd like the return trip to feel more intense.

[danr]

Sometimes in a fantasy movie when the evil wizard is slain or whatever, their whole keep comes crashing down because I guess the evil magic holding it together is gone or whatever.

DCSS could do something like this and have something like LRD be randomly cast in their vicinity blowing up walls, or large boulders could start falling everywhere, doors get shaken apart, some walls cave in.

Maybe some sections get flooded with water or lava that didn't have them before. There's all kinds of things that could happen in addition to the demons that start spawning everywhere.

The trip could be made more intense / flavourful in this way. Though that area affect around you once you pick up the Orb adds a bunch of flavour all on its own already.

[JeffQyzt]

Interestingly, the current situation has *already* been "spiced up" quite a bit from prior versions, with the addition of increased demon spawning, Pan lords (both named and random), and the addition of -CTELE and low level glow from the orb. You do occasionally see people who die on the trip up...though it's rare. Overall, it doesn't seem to have reached that objective for skilled players.

Maybe the answer is to go the other direction? Just have the game end (with corresponding congratulatory message) when you grab the orb, rather than make the perfunctory and anticlimactic trip back up the dungeon?

Alternatively (though this would probably be moving in a more Nethackish direction) it could close the route back to the Dungeon, and open a new route out of Zot (to where?) to exit victoriously? It would need to be both short and extremely dangerous, ideally in a way different than just spawning lots of demons (perhaps the route could cause something like the Hell effects, though you'd want the specific effects to differ in flavor.)

[Jeremiah]

There are already quite a few suggestions to make the orb run harder.

Here are a few more: (sorry if they have already been thought of...)

Levels sometimes get randomly rearranged so you don't know where the stairs are and have to find your way back to them.
The orb blocks all access to divine abilities.
The orb sometimes causes monsters in LOS to teleport next to you.

However, if any move is made to make the orb run more dangerous, we need to remember that what will be challenging for someone who has got 15 runes and killed Cerebov will probably be impossible for someone who is just attempting their first orb run with 3 runes. Perhaps the frequency/difficulty of orb effects should be scaled according to how many runes you have.

[ClawlessVictory]

Perhaps the frequency/difficulty of orb effects should be scaled according to how many runes you have.

Great idea. I was thinking about the impact it would make on more skilled players, also, I believe there are some achievements during the tournament that involve completing certain tasks after having picked up the orb.

[pubby]

The orb run isn't supposed to be extremely dangerous or high-tension.

On this pacing chart grabbing the orb coincides with "Use the Force!" and the orb run follows.


Actually, Crawl seems to do it backwards:

[crate]

I would like to see the game end when you go upstairs from Zot:5 with the orb. Having just picking up the orb end the game is a bit too abrupt because it is significantly easier to ninja the orb if you don't have to get back out!

[danr]

I think it would be cool if when you picked up the Orb, you were transported or had access to a portal to another level. Before entering, you see the dungeon collapse in ruin. Once in, it'd be some grandiose hall where you walk past all the uniques you killed and runes you collected and then you take your seat among the Legends of Zot or something where you get to watch others die pitiful deaths on their quest. Then "You see a long plaque on the wall" and it takes you to the high score list.

I dunno.

I died on my first orb run, that really sucked.

[KoboldLord]

A simple improvement to the Orb Run would be to concentrate the demon spawns in the immediate vicinity of the stairwells, so you're forced to pass through some of them on the way up. Rather than getting met one at a time and cut down severally, generally without any risk to the player character, you'd get a nasty group forming at each stairwell that is likely to contain something dangerous. They would mostly camp out at those spot, so you can at least somewhat plan your attempt at breaching their formation rather than simply maintaining full hp and mp at all times and hitting teleport whenever something nasty shows its face. That leaves the issue of levels with eight escape hatches, but perhaps escape hatches that lead up can simply be sealed during the Orb Run.

This would probably lead to some interesting moments. Levels that were generated with all three up stairwells clustered together are likely to get quite interesting, since one way or the other you'd have to defeat or sneak past a triple-strength vanguard. If each of those individual vanguards has a decent chance of containing a 1, a random Pan Lord, or a surviving post-endgame unique, direct combat might be flat-out not possible, in which case the player will have to cleverly come up with some way to lure away and outmaneuver these dangerous opponents.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to add Zot monsters to the resistance, too. It honestly doesn't make much sense that orb guardians pretty much entire lose interest in guarding the Orb the moment you make it back to Zot 4, and a surprise orb of fire or ghost moth blocking your route of travel is much more likely to be fun than yet another flock of hellwings. Or groups of mercenaries culled from the top-end player race lists. If nothing else, rare monsters like deep dwarves would potentially have another little chance to shine.

[ClawlessVictory]

The orb run isn't supposed to be extremely dangerous or high-tension.

I disagree, why else did they implement the final demon attack once you pick up the orb? As it is, it's a rather disappointing cake-walk and very anti-climactic.

I play without spoilers, so the first time I picked up the orb, I imagined the entire place to go batshit insane, possibly crumbling apart somehow as danr mentioned. So beforehand, I carved all of these intricate shortcuts into the walls of EVERY dungeon with the dig spell. Turns out, I didn't even have to do that. I just breezed by any weird looking, unfamiliar enemy with ease.

[ClawlessVictory]

Another suggestion: What if each turn you hold the orb, your hp decreases by 1 for every rune you collected? Maybe not a good idea considering fast travel complications...

[ClawlessVictory]

A simple improvement to the Orb Run would be to concentrate the demon spawns in the immediate vicinity of the stairwells, so you're forced to pass through some of them on the way up. Rather than getting met one at a time and cut down severally, generally without any risk to the player character, you'd get a nasty group forming at each stairwell that is likely to contain something dangerous. They would mostly camp out at those spot, so you can at least somewhat plan your attempt at breaching their formation rather than simply maintaining full hp and mp at all times and hitting teleport whenever something nasty shows its face. That leaves the issue of levels with eight escape hatches, but perhaps escape hatches that lead up can simply be sealed during the Orb Run.

This would probably lead to some interesting moments. Levels that were generated with all three up stairwells clustered together are likely to get quite interesting, since one way or the other you'd have to defeat or sneak past a triple-strength vanguard. If each of those individual vanguards has a decent chance of containing a 1, a random Pan Lord, or a surviving post-endgame unique, direct combat might be flat-out not possible, in which case the player will have to cleverly come up with some way to lure away and outmaneuver these dangerous opponents.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to add Zot monsters to the resistance, too. It honestly doesn't make much sense that orb guardians pretty much entire lose interest in guarding the Orb the moment you make it back to Zot 4, and a surprise orb of fire or ghost moth blocking your route of travel is much more likely to be fun than yet another flock of hellwings. Or groups of mercenaries culled from the top-end player race lists. If nothing else, rare monsters like deep dwarves would potentially have another little chance to shine.

Love these ideas, especially like the idea of having zot guardians and orbs of fire chasing after you on your way back up. That would definitely make for a more intense ascension.

[hxy]

More suggestions:
- random teleport at double the rate of teleportitis 3 with c-tele blocked
- something similar to hell effects with demons dropped onto you
The exact rate can scale with the number of runes collected.

[danr]

I think it would be better if we just accepted that the game has to end at some point. Eventually, the crawl is over. It might as well be when you get the orb or very shortly after.

However, what the heck:

How about just giving the orb irresistible +MUT? That should make the run a little more interesting.

[ClawlessVictory]

I think it would be better if we just accepted that the game has to end at some point. Eventually, the crawl is over. It might as well be when you get the orb or very shortly after.

However, what the heck:

How about just giving the orb irresistible +MUT? That should make the run a little more interesting.

I'm actually stuck on the idea of having orb guardians and orbs of fire chasing you to the top, now. It fits perfectly with the theme and would probably be easy to code. Combining both ideas might be interesting.

[moocowmoocow]

NO! I die enough as it is, without getting my dreams crushed right at the finish line.

[Deimos]

I hear ya moocow

[ClawlessVictory]

NO! I die enough as it is, without getting my dreams crushed right at the finish line.

Well, most games get harder as the game progresses to build tension, but DCSS actually gets easier as it goes on and the final bit, the ascension, is a stroll in the park. I think it would still be totally winnable with these changes, but provide a feeling that you're truly fleeing for your life as you ascend.

Maybe the random mutations is a bit too much to deal with, as it creates a random element that might prevent one from ascending that's totally out of the player's hand.

Here's another idea that I almost don't like as it might be way too dangerous haha... how about if pillars of flame randomly generate around the dungeon as you're ascending. It would really suck having to possibly dash through a wall of fire to flee from an orb of fire!

[cerebovssquire]

There's a reason why we have such a difficulty curve. The "gets harder and harder" curve only makes sense for games without permadeath. With permadeath, the correct design strategy (in my opinion) is to reduce the chance of dying the more the game progresses, in order to reduce player frustration. Obviously the game should never become mindless, and I don't think it does (except maybe in early V/mid-D, these places are really bad in this regard), but this is what should be done to an extent. And being chased by orbs of fire sounds ridiculously dangerous.

[dpeg]

(1) The orb run has been made harder, in various ways and for a long time (definitely before 0.6).
(2) It has never been the intention to turn the orb run into a killing spree.

In the olden times, you'd carry your orb to the surface -- and nothing happened. This seemed a bit strange, given that the game claims how important the orb is. Thus the demons were sent in (which has the additional bonus of showing pan demons even to players who never did pan. So the threat is not very high, it is an indication "hey, we noticed what you're doing". Also, victory posts often mention incidents during the orb run, so all seems well. By the way, there is a wiki page with orb run ideas: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... eon:orbrun

[Jeremiah]

I do quite like the idea of monsters guarding the stairs, but again we have to be wary of creating a situation where a 15-rune game becomes easier than a 3-rune game.

If players feel that they need all that extra XP and loot to have a chance of surviving the orb run, then that would be bad design and some kind of difficulty scaling would probably be appropriate.

Already with the current orb effects, I feel that most of my games are easier if I get 4 runes than if I go for 3 because Slime is generally easier than Zot:5, and the loot and XP from it increase my chances of surviving the orb run.

And yes I have died (twice ) on the orb run, both times to Pan lords that were faster than me even while hasted and killed me before my teleport kicked in.)

[KoboldLord]

There's a reason why we have such a difficulty curve. The "gets harder and harder" curve only makes sense for games without permadeath. With permadeath, the correct design strategy (in my opinion) is to reduce the chance of dying the more the game progresses, in order to reduce player frustration. Obviously the game should never become mindless, and I don't think it does (except maybe in early V/mid-D, these places are really bad in this regard), but this is what should be done to an extent. And being chased by orbs of fire sounds ridiculously dangerous.

Certainly, it would be somewhat dangerous. But if Zot denizens are added to the Orb Run spawn list, orbs of fire would still be rare and there's nothing preventing you from simply popping a teleport whenever one shows up. You killed or bypassed several more of them on the way down to get the Orb in the first place, another couple sighted and then avoided on the 32-level journey back up probably aren't likely to make a difference. A little variance in the steady stream of demons and undead, pretty much.

Leaving that aside, putting more of the spawns near the stairwell is more potentially significant anyway. Last time I did the Orb Run, I ran into several Pan and Hell Lords that I bypassed the first time through. All of them were first noticed at the edge of my line of sight, and all of them were dealt with by simply walking briskly away the other direction. It wasn't even necessary to pop a teleport or haste up; they fell behind as they tried to cast, and I got to the stairs the same as if they had never been there at all. The vast majority of demon and undead spawns in the Orb Run are wasted resources, simply because the player either never sees them or is never required to think about dealing with them.

Suppose instead of the current spawning, demons spewed forth from the stairwells leading up. First one out would be highly likely to be something interesting, like a foo fiend, hell sentinel, or random Pan Lord. If not, then there's another chance a bit later than that, and then another a bit later than that, but there's no guarantee a given stairwell will spawn one of these monsters. If one of these isn't drawn from the spawn list, the stairwell gets a balrug, or multiple hell knights, or some other mid-tier threat. Once the stairwell has a bunch of interesting monsters in it, if the player is still dawdling on that level the empty space around the stairwells is filled with atmospheric monsters that make a satisfying squishing noise when the player rolls over them, like ynoxinuls or neqoxecs. If the player dashes to a very nearby stairwell quick enough, they might get lucky and not fight anything at all. In a more typical level or if the player is delayed by some other monster, the stairwell will be blocked and the player will have to consider whether to force through or check the other stairwells for a safer route. A different stairwell probably won't have a Pan Lord sitting on it, but if it does then both stairwells will be reinforced while the player is running around checking.

That leaves the problem of resting, which is still undesirable, but resting can still be discouraged by having the occasional random spawn away from stairwells, as long as these are more likely to be interesting. No point in random Orb Effects dropping a lone hellwing on you, for instance. This is probably a good role for orb guardians, which are tough enough to make the player spend hp and mp dealing with them but not so nasty that they're likely to feel like the worst threat the player faces.

[galehar]

I think what's needed for the orb run is more variety, and more differentiation based on number of runes. Demons, demons, demons gets boring.
Maybe we could use some code and monster lists from evilmike's Sprint VI? Have some random waves of monsters coming from the upstairs. Scale them with the number of runes, weight them based on which runes you got, and where you are in the dungeon. Zot monsters in Zot, then frequency starts to decrease in the lower dungeon. Undeads from crypt when you're near the Vaults stairs (maybe Vaults monsters if they get differentiated someday), then Lair and Lair branches monsters, then Orcs. Again, location would just change the weighting, I'm not saying only Orcs on the level with the Orcs stairs.

[XuaXua]

Change floor layouts completely to simulate some sort of shifting.

[rchandra]

I like that the Orb run isn't threatening, because of the existence of the extended game. Extended being optional, it's nice to be able to attempt it without jeopardizing a win in my own mind. Before I attempt extended, I clear Zot:5 and stand on the Orb. That way, I know I could win, and dying later is less painful. If I didn't know it was winnable, because the Orb run was difficult, there's less incentive to see more of the game's content.

Changes for variety and flavour are fine.

[evilmike]

I agree with people who say the game should end when you leave Zot, or Zot:5. I don't think the orb run is a fun or interesting part of the game, and I don't think making it harder will help either (at least the way it's currently designed). It's too random right now, and if it's made too hard, it will just feel like the RNG is arbitrarily deciding to kill you. It can already be overly arbitrary (spawning pan lords and liches in LOS that can kill you in two or three turns, and then randomly blocking any of your attempts to blink/teleport out of there). So, I think the best thing would be to just remove this part of the game.

That's just what I think though, it's not a change I'm going to push for.

I think what's needed for the orb run is more variety, and more differentiation based on number of runes. Demons, demons, demons gets boring.
Maybe we could use some code and monster lists from evilmike's Sprint VI? Have some random waves of monsters coming from the upstairs. Scale them with the number of runes, weight them based on which runes you got, and where you are in the dungeon. Zot monsters in Zot, then frequency starts to decrease in the lower dungeon. Undeads from crypt when you're near the Vaults stairs (maybe Vaults monsters if they get differentiated someday), then Lair and Lair branches monsters, then Orcs. Again, location would just change the weighting, I'm not saying only Orcs on the level with the Orcs stairs.

My post here is offtopic, but I feel like I should mention a few things about this map.

First, only a few of the monster sets are chosen to be themed on branches... the rest have more focused themes (some examples: ice, dragons, centaurs, eyes), and a couple of them are just silly (giant spores).

Second, the way it generates monsters relies on some assumptions which I don't think will work on the orb run. It's meant for a small map where the entry points (for monsters) are mostly along the edges, and a strict time limit (and cap on the number that can spawn). Also, the whole thing is built with the mentality of being a self contained mini-game. So, it's not much like stair spawns in a regular game of Crawl. While I think some of the ideas in that Sprint map could be used, I think the orb run should be quite different (both in terms of monster lists, and in terms of how it's coded).

I do have some distant plans on using some of this stuff for a portal vault. When I'm satisfied with the sprint map (this is going to take quite a while, probably), I'd like to work on a toned-down version that could appear in regular games in crawl: it would spawn monsters based on where the portal vault generated, not be quite so insane/murderous, be less silly, only last a couple of waves (10 max, I think). And reward loot instead of "arena points". But this is just a vague idea right now.

[danr]

I believe Nethack was the same - you get the amulet of Yendor and then have to bring it back up to the surface. It would be okay if DCSS didn't copy the same basic mechanism. Or maybe it's a roguelike essential?

The orb run, at its core, means the traversal of 32 levels of dungeon. It's like an extended run back to your stash, but with flavour. I think no matter how much variety or flavour you add to it, after 32 floors it starts feeling a bit tedious.

Also: I have this idea that score is based in part on the items you ascend with. This seems to me to promote the tedious behaviour of, prior to the orb run, running all around the dungeon to collect artefacts that were not helpful for your character but will help your score. But that may have changed because last time I won I notice the game didn't tell me what everything was worth like it used to.

[BlackSheep]

Also: I have this idea that score is based in part on the items you ascend with. This seems to me to promote the tedious behaviour of, prior to the orb run, running all around the dungeon to collect artefacts that were not helpful for your character but will help your score. But that may have changed because last time I won I notice the game didn't tell me what everything was worth like it used to.

Items and gold don't affect your score anymore. I think just turns, runes and XP.

On the original topic: I wouldn't mind seeing the orb run be a little more exciting, but not as much more as some people have proposed. And I'd definitely favor leaving it the way it is over making the game end when you leave Z:5.

[Eji1700]

There's a reason why we have such a difficulty curve. The "gets harder and harder" curve only makes sense for games without permadeath. With permadeath, the correct design strategy (in my opinion) is to reduce the chance of dying the more the game progresses, in order to reduce player frustration. Obviously the game should never become mindless, and I don't think it does (except maybe in early V/mid-D, these places are really bad in this regard), but this is what should be done to an extent. And being chased by orbs of fire sounds ridiculously dangerous.

I think this makes perfect sense but doesn't apply to the orb run.

Regardless win or lose, once you pick up the orb your game is ending in a few thousand more turns. Its not like its some arbitrary spike that occurs just after you clear vault 4 that could cause you to lose hours of work with hours left. You've got maybe 10 minutes left tops of playtime on that character once you start running.

Heck ideally i'd like there to be two ways out. A safer, lower point value way, and the higher point value run which will be filled with monsters based on your levels/skills/runes/achievements as sort of an ultimate test of the character you've now built.

[ClawlessVictory]

I think what's needed for the orb run is more variety, and more differentiation based on number of runes. Demons, demons, demons gets boring.
Maybe we could use some code and monster lists from evilmike's Sprint VI? Have some random waves of monsters coming from the upstairs. Scale them with the number of runes, weight them based on which runes you got, and where you are in the dungeon. Zot monsters in Zot, then frequency starts to decrease in the lower dungeon. Undeads from crypt when you're near the Vaults stairs (maybe Vaults monsters if they get differentiated someday), then Lair and Lair branches monsters, then Orcs. Again, location would just change the weighting, I'm not saying only Orcs on the level with the Orcs stairs.

After some thought, I think this is the best solution as there isn't much wrong with it as is. There needs to be a spike in difficulty when you decide to end the game, but nothing too drastic that removes control from the player. I agree that variety is needed, and it would probably be interesting to bump into at least a couple of orb guardians and maybe an orb of fire on the way up as well.

[ais523]

I believe Nethack was the same - you get the amulet of Yendor and then have to bring it back up to the surface. It would be okay if DCSS didn't copy the same basic mechanism. Or maybe it's a roguelike essential?

NetHack has some bonus levels after you bring it back to the surface; the fifth and last of them, Astral, is by far the hardest level in the game (it's the Zot:5 of NetHack, although somewhat easier than Zot:5 is). Most people are pretty happy with that part of the NetHack endgame, although they find the "ascension run" from the bottom level up to D:1 pretty boring.

Crawl has the boring bottom-level-to-D:1 bit, but nothing after it; Zot:5 is really the final test there in of itself.

[Eji1700]

I believe Nethack was the same - you get the amulet of Yendor and then have to bring it back up to the surface. It would be okay if DCSS didn't copy the same basic mechanism. Or maybe it's a roguelike essential?

NetHack has some bonus levels after you bring it back to the surface; the fifth and last of them, Astral, is by far the hardest level in the game (it's the Zot:5 of NetHack, although somewhat easier than Zot:5 is). Most people are pretty happy with that part of the NetHack endgame, although they find the "ascension run" from the bottom level up to D:1 pretty boring.

Crawl has the boring bottom-level-to-D:1 bit, but nothing after it; Zot:5 is really the final test there in of itself.

I've always been confused about crawl late game. It feels like the threats to an end game character are-
Pan
Hells- Its always struck me that this is more of a "do you have X amount of Y resist"
Zigg - Probably the most difficult thing in the game?
Maybe zot 5, and if you did the previous, probably not?

After doing extended end game grabbing the orb is basically a formality. I'd like if a full rune grab of the orb unlocked some final challenge if you wanted it to(for a possible score boost)

[evilmike]

I've always been confused about crawl late game. It feels like the threats to an end game character are-
Pan
Hells- Its always struck me that this is more of a "do you have X amount of Y resist"
Zigg - Probably the most difficult thing in the game?
Maybe zot 5, and if you did the previous, probably not?

Maybe if you played the extended endgame you'd be less confused? Assuming by late game you mean what people usually call the extended endgame, then yes, places like Pan, Hells, Zigs, etc are going to be the threats. This is because these are the extended endgame. This is just like how in a normal game, the main dungeon is a threat.

Resists are nice in the Hells but you're practically guaranteed to have the "necessary" resists by this point. What actually makes this part of the game hard has little to do with how good your defenses are.

Zot 5 can be hard even if you're doing it after you get all 15 runes. In terms of difficulty, this level is harder than most stuff you'll see in the extended endgame. Of course, you can always clear Zot 5 early (tons of XP there), in that case your final visit is probably going to be pretty easy.

[Roderic]

Maybe losing HP, MP, XP, skill points as you go back to upper (and easier) levels. It would be like climbing a mountain, which it's merely the half of the trip because you have to descend again.

[danr]

I think the main problem with the Orb run is that it's essentially a long run.

IMHO, what happens afte you pick up the Orb should be brief and spectacular. It could even be another fight - like maybe you have to pass through a chamber equivalent to Level 10-15 of a Zig. One big last fight would be better than one long last jog.

[galbolle]

Maybe zot can replace the orb run:

- The orb is found on d:27 (you pick it up instead of going into zot)
- Upon picking it up, you start the crumbling and zotifying of the dungeon (you have disturbed the equilibrium of the dungeon! The whole starts creaking purple!): you have to run with it to the surface. At first, levels crumble together: half of the map is replaced with half of the map of the previous level. Going up a stair goes up two levels (since they have merged). The crumbling accelerates to three levels for one, maybe even four. Levels may get sealed upon (or shortly after) leaving them ("You can't go down: that part of the dungeon has already crumbled into nothingness")
- When there's only seven or so levels left (so when the player has come back up to d:20-18), zotification begins: part of the level are replaced with zot-like vaults
- When there are five levels left, they look entirely like zot; they functionally are the current zot.
- On d:1 (ie, zot 5), there's only one upstair left, in the orb chamber.

As a bonus, runes in inventory can accelerate the whole process, making it shorter but more intense for 15-runers.

[Konebred]

I like the orb run kinda. It is a little tedious but it's fun to say F-U to all the demons while you run away with the orb.

[dd]

The orb run does seem a bit easy, but I don't think it should be really hard. Zot is most of the time challenging enough, and after you've finally beaten everyone there and got the orb, it'd be really miserable to die in the orb run...

[inkydood]

For me, the orb return was like a final victory lap through all the places I'd previously struggled through, and was emotionally satisfying.

On that note, I like the idea of the dungeon collapsing on the way out. Making downward staircases inaccessible would be an easy way to communicate this while making the run slightly more difficult (how many characters have to use down stairways during the orb return?). If that's too much, perhaps downward staircases could be replaced by Abyss portals (perhaps the dungeon below is collapsing into the Abyss?) to provide at least some kind of escape mechanism.