Proposal: Monsters should not pick up items.

[njvack]

This came up as an OT aside in the monster jewelry thread, but it's simple: I think monsters should not pick items up off the floor. If we want monsters to have stuff, have 'em spawn with stuff. Generate less stuff on the floor if this would mean loot creep.

Why? Man, I get irritated when some orc zaps me with a wand of draining I left on the floor, or an imp pelts me with a floor trash sling. Or anyone ever grabs a distortion weapon and hits me with it. So, I pick those things up and carry them with me (well, I don't bother with the sling case), until I get to a safe place to drop them off. And generally, having stuff on the floor move around confuses the stash tracker and is, well, irritating.

I'm not bothered by orcs with wands of draining or distortion weapons; I'm just bothered by "This item will be dangerous/annoying if used against me, so I'll just pick this up until I go back to Lair or find some lava."

What about Beogh? My take is: the Orc God can bless your orcish allies with armour and weapons for the duration of their brief, violent lives.

Thoughts?

[mageykun]

Follower Orcs could always just be special cased to still pick stuff up if it's a problem.

Now, on the surface, I like this idea. There are a few fiddly bits i think would be problematic though.

For instance- this removes some tactical descions from the game. For instance, there's no incentive to try and beat monsters to an early wand (risking exposure and hits to try and avoid he potenitally more dangerous zaps). There's also no risk in throwing ammo that could otherwise be picked up and thrown back at you.

Monster packs not scooping up the loot left behind by slain elf/orc/yaktaur/skeletal warrior/etc packs is kinda mixed. On the one hand, it would make certain areas safer. On the other, I would be quite happy to stop having to dump xbows upstairs.

Should there be exceptions? I always thought orcs scooping up gold in the mines was good flavor. And gaurdian creatures should be able to try and return things in their care to their vaults.

[njvack]

Heh. Ally equipment management is, I think, the sole Crawl minigame that's too tedious for even me to indulge in. My brain refuses to admit it's a thing. And I played the "let's enchant ammo" minigame with determined vigor.

<grumble>stupid video game OCD</grumble>

[Grimm]

I dislike reaching the loot piles in e.g. Elf or Tomb and finding them rifled. A huge untouched stack of treasure is a pleasing sight after a desperate battle.

[snow]

There aren't enough tactical decisions involved with monsters picking up items to warrant them the ability to pick up items instead of spawning with them. Furthermore the tactical decisions that do exist are rather silly: move one tile so an orc doesn't walk over a wand and separate dangerous ammo and launchers.

I'd also argue that all items on the ground should be indestructible. Jellies are interesting enough with their corrosion.

[eeviac]

The few times I've done elf since the jewelry change have been pretty silly. The loot chambers are practically empty when I get to them - most of the items having been carried to the vault chokepoint. Then you get to ctrl-f . and look through pages of elven gear to make sure you're not missing anything important.

While this isn't that big of a deal, I think Crawl would be a better game if monsters didn't mess with floor items.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Or, at the very least, be able to flag loot in vaults as unpickupable by monsters.

...I'm aware that's not a word.

[njvack]

It's a perfectly cromulent word.

[dd]

I don't like this idea too much. It seems another thing that's simplifying the game too much... your enemies don't always play by the rules you'd like them to. Sometimes they do stuff that bothers you. Go figure - they're enemies.

Now if the vault stashes etc. are a problem - just give them a special items flag NOT_PICKUPABLE_BY_MONSTERS == true and problem solved.

[galehar]

I agree with grimm and also with dd. Monsters looting vault treasures is annoying, but it can be addressed by flagging the loot, or locking the doors or something.
Regarding the OP, personally I like that monsters pick up and use items.

[njvack]

Regarding the OP, personally I like that monsters pick up and use items.

Flavor-wise, or gameplay-wise?

I'm not sure I communicated what bugs me well enough -- I'm not bothered that monsters can use items on me. I'm bothered that I can prevent them from doing so by doing something trivial and tedious. Just pick up anything you don't want your enemies to use, and put it up a floor, or in the temple/lair/vestibule if you *really* don't want them to have it.

I guess an alternate would be to get a "Destroy this item" command -- essentially the same effect, but without the inventory management and travel.

On the vault loot issue, that's always been one of the little Crawl inside jokes to me. Monsters can pick up weapons, but this Deep Elf Master Archer left the Storm Bow in a vault? Clever chap

[njvack]

Alter-alternately, I'd actually be OK if stashes were explicitly unsafe: when a monster spawns, it has a chance to get item(s) from stashes around the dungeon -- including from Temple or even deep water. Then there's no point in stashing that dagger of distortion, because someone might wind up with it anyhow. And you get to decide: is this item dangerous enough that it's worth an inventory slot?

Then, item destruction becomes a early-game Ely and Nemelex special.

[XuaXua]

In my opinion, monsters should always pick up the better weapon, and a good AI would make a decision between running to grab the weapon in the next space over or approaching the player.

[snow]

If no items are safe... then you remove the whole point of item destruction in the first place.

One of the more important lessons a player can learn is to not carry every item they find on them because a random ice or fire attack could make them lose half a dozen items. Now if items are safer in your inventory a huge part of the item strategy is removed from the game.

Also since saving your potions wouldn't really accomplish anything you would be encouraged to scum pan to heal rot and such.

[evilmike]

I think monsters should only pick up types of items they can use. I do not think they should pick up gold, or decks of cards, or anything else that's useless to them.

If monsters looting vaults is a problem, I think this would be the best solution: add a no_item_pickup flag that can be given to vaults. Put it on elf:$ vaults, tomb:3, etc. This should only stop monsters from picking up items placed by the vaults, in my opinion. Random floor items should still be allowed.

[njvack]

I think monsters should only pick up types of items they can use. I do not think they should pick up gold, or decks of cards, or anything else that's useless to them.

Why not? This at least has essentially no gameplay effect, but a little bit of flavor. If orcs pick up some gold and I kill 'em, hey look, it's some gold!

... but then, why didn't they just have the gold to begin with?

snow: My ultimate frustration is that the current situation lets me spend purely real-world effort (the food costs of stashing are pretty minimal) to get an in-game advantage. I'd stop doing this if the advantage went away -- either if monsters stopped picking up items, or if stashing didn't work.

I just think that stashing stuff to deny it to monsters is tedious. I know I'm free to not do it, but I also know that goddamn it, I'm going to because that's how I'm wired. It's a little like selling crap in Nethack. At first I thought "wtf crawl why can't I sell my stuff in shops" and now my feeling is "thank you crawl for not rewarding my tedious behavior."

[danharaj]

My only real complaint is that loot piles are completely scavenged by the time you get to them. This really reduces the rewarding feeling you get for clearing a hard level. Pretty much the only guaranteed satisfying loot pile anymore is slime:6. Don't get me started on how I felt when a jelly tele'd into one of the quadrants

[rchandra]

Those large, pristine collections are really nice to see. Similarly, I really like the dragon room near the worm ending of Lair much more than baileys with a single or double large pile of gold.

[XuaXua]

Orcs/Goblins shouldn't pick up floor gold, but they should start with 2-5 gold each.

I think Maurice should never sleep and should constantly scour the level he is on picking up as much crap as he can carry.

[Deimos]

Orcs/Goblins shouldn't pick up floor gold, but they should start with 2-5 gold each.

I dont think this is a good idea. It would look silly.

[Krag]

I personally like monsters picking up stuff, mostly so that random kobold might just have a wand to zap me with or that one time I learned to never let a rod lie on the ground after getting killed by a horde of demons summoned by an orc wizard with a *surprise* rod of summoning. Though they could of course just spawn with random items at times instead.

One thing related I'd love to see and which was mentioned earlier was an option to destroy items so I don't feel I have to run to a safe place with those 5 wands of confusion and the short sword of distortion that I wasn't going to use but don't want lying around. It could take some time to do (10-20 turns or whatever seems appropriate. Weapons/armor would take time to destroy, things like wands you might have to carefully break to not have the magic explode on you) and make some noise also if needed.

[smock]

I think monsters should only pick up types of items they can use. I do not think they should pick up gold, or decks of cards, or anything else that's useless to them.

What are thoughts about monsters being generated with more items, even useless ones, and commensurately fewer items being generated on the floor?

[dpeg]

smock: Nethack does this in a way, with the death drop (a monster dying can produce a randomsed item).

This is a topic where everyone has an opinion. I for one really like the orcs collecting the gold in their caves. However, I think a major problem is that Crawl has way too many items, most of them useless. What's the point of the second mundane scale mail? Nothing, apart from sacrifice fodder for Nemelex and bizarro reasons like acid.

So here's a shoot from the hip: what if there were no items on the ground and no items on monsters (with exceptions, see below)? You'd get items from vaults, and that's it.
The exceptions: if an orc attacks you with a dagger of freezing, it'll drop when you kill the orc. Same for other potentially interesting stuff. This should make for a much tidier dungeon. It addresses the original problem, because there would be rods or wands lying on the ground, and the question whether a vault keeper is allow to rummage in the vault loot can be deciced on a vault by vault basis (people will come with clever ideas to randomly equip normal monsters with not-so-normal items).

[dd]

So here's a shoot from the hip: what if there were no items on the ground and no items on monsters (with exceptions, see below)? You'd get items from vaults, and that's it.
The exceptions: if an orc attacks you with a dagger of freezing, it'll drop when you kill the orc. Same for other potentially interesting stuff. This should make for a much tidier dungeon. It addresses the original problem, because there would be rods or wands lying on the ground, and the question whether a vault keeper is allow to rummage in the vault loot can be deciced on a vault by vault basis (people will come with clever ideas to randomly equip normal monsters with not-so-normal items).

I think that'd throw the game balance off, there'd have to be way more vaults to compensate for the lack of items for one thing... and also I like finding random stuff around the dungeon when I explore and kill monsters... it's like, when I've been mutated with a bad mutation and I'm desperately searching for a cure mut potion that I haven't id:d yet, and every un-id:d potion I find gives a small glimmer of hope that maybe that's it... I would like to still have that hope while I rummage around the dungeon to luckily find that one item I need, rather than having to go through certain vaults (possibly having to face their guardians with a handicap) to look for the items.

[mageykun]

We should be able to destroy items easy

Ely, Neme, Jiyva, lava.

@dpeg's suggestion:

My first reaction is we're going to need more loot oriented vaults. A lot more.

There'll be less incentive to fully explore. All you need to do is find the loot vaults- you don't have to worry about missing an awesome floor spawn.

If this results in less loot, the gifting gods become that much more valuable.

Serious implications for balance- the player's biggest edge is their resources. Less resources (or resources that are more securely guarded) change the balance.

Less floor trash doesn't hurt anyone but Neme. Problem is, of course, what's considered floor trash can vary wildly depending on depth, build, etc.

(Many of these things are manageable, they're just consequences that come to mind).

One last thought- if this idea doesn't go through for the whole game? It sounds like an awesome one for the Vaults. No more scattered loot- hide it all the way around in rooms. Makes it look designed, and vaulty. The rest of the dungeon can stay a disorderly mess.

[dpeg]

When I make a radical proposal like "loot in vaults, not on the ground", of course I am aware of the necessary follow-up tweaks. I wonder why I have to spell that out every time. By the way, I proposed exactly that idea for Vaults. There is a discussion on the dev-wiki. Crawl has some loot closets already. One would need more of those, and also with more thought what they should contain.

It just occurred that apart from moving random loot into closets (my concern is not to reduce the amount of what you find but just the pointless stuff), it is also okay for monsters to drop things. But instead of faithfully mimicking reality and dropping their lousy clubs and scale mails, they should drop consumables -- assuming they didn't consume them first. That could be interesting: if that orc drinks a potion of healing, that should make you think about how to off it quickly (perhaps use your wand?), as chances are not so bad there's a second or even third one. In other way, this could be an incentive to counter the "kill in the most efficient way possible", where efficient does not mean quick but "does not use piety or items, as little MP as possible".

[mageykun]

of course I am aware of the necessary follow-up tweaks. I wonder why I have to spell that out every time.

Uh, sorry about that. No offense meant, it's just the first place my head goes when I see an interesting change is "okay, what are the consequences?". Even if it's certainly easier or somewhat mundane to brainstorm the potential tweaks. And necessary tweaks certainly aren't reasons not to do something, unless one comes up with one that's game-breaking-ly bad.

[njvack]

So here's a shoot from the hip: what if there were no items on the ground and no items on monsters (with exceptions, see below)? You'd get items from vaults, and that's it.

I like this idea. The second mundane scale mail isn't a big deal, but 30+ unbranded robes actually makes looking for an interesting robe a lot more tedious.

But: it doesn't address my original problem. Floor trash is floor trash; I could care less if monsters pick up 95% of the stuff on the ground. Anything I care about would also be "interesting" as far as your proposal goes, and I'd pick it up in order to deny it to other monsters.

Where I'm coming from on this, by the way: So, I played a bunch of crawl before my 2-year old was born. Now, I have way less time for video games and really notice things that take a bunch of time but no real thought -- and stash management is #1 on that list for me. It might be that this is just something that I need to get over.

[dpeg]

nvjack: It all gets better once your child can play Crawl. Which should be in two years, given proper education. (You do read books with the kid? )

My proposal does address this: there would be no more piles of mundane robes. The orc wizard might wear it, but it won't drop. (If someone needs a rationale for the hiding of stuff: torn in battle.) Same with daggers (also something you might go through for an ego). There'd be less rubbish but exactly the same amount of rings, ego daggers etc.

[Galefury]

There was a recent change making glowing stuff always ego or cursed. There was some talk about changing it to also allow *highly* enchanted stuff to glow, or to make enchanted = glowing and ego = runed. Anyway, this does help a bit with the trash problem.

[Volteccer_Jack]

30+ unbranded robes actually makes looking for an interesting robe a lot more tedious.

How so? Ctrl+F "robe". Ignore everything that isn't blue. At most you need an extra keystroke to scroll when the list exceeds the screen.

Things that are very common (mundane orcs/nagas, mundane armour/weapons) serve a useful purpose. They are also, by the definition of 'common', mostly trash.

What's the point of the second mundane scale mail?

What's the point of the second flaming demon whip?

[galehar]

How so? Ctrl+F "robe". Ignore everything that isn't blue.

hint: ctrl+f "robe && ego"

[dpeg]

galehar: I have written the Ctrl-F help screen which explains this. However, having to explain is an indication that something might be off. Of course, Crawl is nowhere near Angband's squelch-inducing item wastelands (not that I ever touched Angband) but I believe that my suggestion would improve matters in two ways.

[bobross419]

The Ctrl-F help screen is great. You can't make players read the help though

[XuaXua]

30+ unbranded robes actually makes looking for an interesting robe a lot more tedious.

How so? Ctrl+F "robe". Ignore everything that isn't blue. At most you need an extra keystroke to scroll when the list exceeds the screen.

Things that are very common (mundane orcs/nagas, mundane armour/weapons) serve a useful purpose. They are also, by the definition of 'common', mostly trash.

What's the point of the second mundane scale mail?

What's the point of the second flaming demon whip?

It the + higher on it?

[njvack]

What's the point of the second flaming demon whip?

Once there's a weapon/armour of a given base & ego in the stash tracker, there's not much point in generating another. So yes, a second flaming demon whip is just as much floor trash as a second +0 robe.

In practice, you'd probably keep spawning demon whips of flaming, because you're mainly gonna find 'em in Pan. But Pan cleans up after itself anyhow

[Grimm]

Imps picking up items and using them against you is fun. I wouldn't like to see that changed.

[XuaXua]

Imps picking up items and using them against you is fun. I wouldn't like to see that changed.

Too late. Thought they removed that recently.

[crate]

Imps still pick up items.

Summoned imps won't, but that's because they are summoned.

[glexus]

I agree that it's a pain hauling everything to Lair just to avoid it being picked up knowing that that is the 100% successful way to ensure it won't be picked up.

Why not introduce a command to simply 'H'ide a pile you're standing on? Everything about it works as before, but everything in the pile is marked as not being able to be picked up by monsters. The only thing it then changes is the amount of hauling you have to do. The items stay on the ground where you drop them (or come upon them) and use the command.

If you want to restrict the ability, why not make it consume stones in your inventory.

[pubby]

If you want to lessen the floor trash then just spawn more gold and shops to replace the trash and add a few more uniques that spawn with interesting items.

[jejorda2]

If no items are safe... then you remove the whole point of item destruction in the first place.

One of the more important lessons a player can learn is to not carry every item they find on them because a random ice or fire attack could make them lose half a dozen items. Now if items are safer in your inventory a huge part of the item strategy is removed from the game.

Is item destruction supposed to teach "save consumables carefully" or "use it or lose it?" Removing stashing pushes the latter theme even more, I'd say.

[danr]

Item destruction would not be a good solution, it would just encourage players to carry as much as they possibly can in case they might need that item later.

Lots of good ideas in here though. I'd like the reduction of floor trash.

Another related issue: after a big battle, autoexplore makes me run to every corpse with a ? to see what's there. Realistic? I guess. Tedious? A bit.

[ClawlessVictory]

I'm of the opinion that I love monsters having the ability to pick up stuff and chuck it at me, or zap me with that wand of draining and ruin my day.

However, I also think having to store your stash in Lair 2 is tedious and cumbersome. I really have no idea if there's a possible middle ground.

[danr]

I tend to stash on Lair 1 and have never had an issue with anything wandering off. I've also read that the best players don't bother with stashing at all. Stashing seems to be something that's done by non-top-tier players because they think it's important to do, but it's not really.

Between the issues CV mentions, I think the tedium of stashing is a bigger issue than the possible loss of monsters zapping wands. Sure, it's interesting, but it's not as interesting as stashing is boring.

So we come back to the fact that stashing is not really necessary, but the fact is people do it anyway, if not for safety reasons, then for convenience - e.g. when I want to memorize or forget spells, I like having all my spellbooks together so I can consider all my options.