Don't spawn insta-kill monsters by stairs

[danr]

In light of this: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=600

What if the game would not spawn hydra (or any monsters) immediately next to stairs when a level is being generated?

A death like this does not seem to be a requirement of good game design.

[szanth]

Agreed. The game kind of revolves around being able to randomly kill you at any moment, but this is one of those instances where it isn't a good thing.

[Grimm]

I vote yes.

[mageykun]

I think the biggest problem is how do you define an instant death monster? Whether or not coming down a stair kills you doesn't just depend on what you find- it depends on what you have. What's instant death for one character may be escapable, surviveable, or killable to another. Deciding what to keep away from stairs would be tricky.

I'd vote against disallowing staircase adjacent spawns completely. Ambushes are, and should be, part of the game- terrible as they are to experience at times. Keeping the really scary away from stairs? Well, as I said, that sounds tricky, and I'm not completely convinced unreasonable deaths shouldn't be part of the game too. :p

[Tiber]

HD would be a half-decent way of considering danger, if you really wanted to do it that way. Or just consider the monster's damage vs. the player's Max HP. I kinda agree with you though mageykun, but I should state that it would have the side-effect of making stair-dipping largely risk-free.

[Grimm]

disallow[.] staircase adjacent spawns completely

this

[danr]

At the very least, give the player character the "initiative" when coming down stairs for the first time. You might come down next to a hydra, but you at least get the chance to run back up, blink, berserk, whatever.

[ohmi]

I agree with danr -- I suggest a one turn paralysis for any creature spawned adjacent to stairs -- up or down. Not next to hatches however -- you take your chances with those.

[danr]

Hmm - not one turn paralysis -that gives the player a huge advantage.

[mageykun]

At the very least, give the player character the "initiative" when coming down stairs for the first time. You might come down next to a hydra, but you at least get the chance to run back up, blink, berserk, whatever.

I like this. It addresses the many complains of "it killed me before I moved", by giving them a move, but still allows for hopeless situations and death on the downstairs. The hydra will just eviscerate you from behind instead of in front.

It could cut down on stair danger without trivializing it.

[ohmi]

Hmm - not one turn paralysis -that gives the player a huge advantage.

Isn't that just the same as "initiative" w/out requiring an new mechanic? The player on the stairs would have one turn to do something - fight or flee.

[mageykun]

Actual paralysis would give stabbing bonuses, etc. That's slightly different from forcing your turn ahead of theirs. I believe that's all danr's objecting to.

[ohmi]

Oh, right. Carry on.

[Jenx]

As the person affected by this, I vote yes. Also..

I think the biggest problem is how do you define an instant death monster?

Six-headed hydra on level 2 of the Lair right next to the stairs is an instant death monster. Yeah I was an AE, but there is no way aside from sheer absurd luck that you can survive that with any character, since by Lair 2 you really aren't that strong.

[danr]

The simple fix is as I first suggested - just don't spawn any monsters right next to stairs. There's no need to figure out a threshold because weaker monsters just don't matter if they are next to the stairs or not.

Now, if it's a matter of allowing spawns next to stairs but manipulating how the turn begins - having them be paralyzed or asleep would be too much, though if the monster would be sleeping anyway and the player is stealthy enough, then this would be fine.

I think it could be okay to have the monster be "unaware" of you though.

There would not be similar protection if using an escape hatch though.

The second option is in some ways safer, because it provides a safety against monsters with ranged attacks as well - it doesn't matter where Nikola is spawned as long as he's within LOS of the stairs and he gets to shoot as soon as you emerge.

[galehar]

Maybe prevent OOD monsters from being generated next to stairs. But then, I'm not even sure 6-headed hydra on Lair:1 is OOD
Give the player the initiative seems like an interesting way to fix the problem.

[jpeg]

I'd vote against disallowing staircase adjacent spawns completely. Ambushes are, and should be, part of the game- terrible as they are to experience at times. Keeping the really scary away from stairs? Well, as I said, that sounds tricky, and I'm not completely convinced unreasonable deaths shouldn't be part of the game too. :p

I'm not sure it'd be that bad. If the monster (one square removed from the stairs) wakes up when you come downstairs you won't make it up the stairs in time. If we only prevent dangerous monsters from being generated, the "ambushes" don't deserve the term either.

Also, what about non-adjacent monsters with a ranged attack?

[dpeg]

I am very skeptical about changes like this.
Also, be aware that this makes stair-dancing more attractive.

[joellercoaster]

I'm also skeptical, for different reasons: a Spriggan of mine got killed by walking downstairs a while ago and finding myself near a pool full of eels. They weren't next to me, but they killed me as I ran back up anyway.

I imagine the same could happen with yaktaurs, or even oklobs. Where would you draw the line? Entry vaults for all levels?

Sometimes, you really do just get killed.

[edit: didn't read jpeg's post. Same thing.]

[szanth]

Not so. Let's say it only applies the first time you enter the dungeon level. It'd be unreasonable to assume that everytime the guy goes up and comes back down, the monsters either wouldn't be huddled around the place where he escaped or he'd somehow have an initiative against them.

[hxy]

I'd support the suggestion to give initiative to the player the first time he enters a level (either up or down stairs)

[galehar]

I'd support the suggestion to give initiative to the player the first time he enters a level (either up or down stairs)

Yes. That seems like a simple and fair change which isn't abusable and shouldn't be too hard to code.

[danr]

I'd support the suggestion to give initiative to the player the first time he enters a level (either up or down stairs)

That was my intent - this would apply the first time the area around stairs is mapped, or perhaps just when the level is first generated on the first entry.

That actually creates a disincentive to stair-dipping because the player knows they may not make it safely down the other stairs.

[ais523]

The rule for this in NetHack is relatively simple: monsters cannot move or take actions (as if they had a zero movement and action speed) until they and the player have simultaneously been on some level at the end of a turn (and after a turn ends, the player gets the first move on the next turn). So monsters following you downstairs can still attack; monsters that fell through traps onto the level can attack you as soon as you come downstairs; if you stair-dip, monsters can be active next time you arrive; and so on. (It makes going downstairs when slowed risky, too, as multiple turns can end just after the player goes downstairs, although players can only be slowed in variants.) A similar or identical rule would seem to make sense in Crawl.

(NetHack's rule also allows the player to run back up the stairs if they dip and see something they can't handle, like the eels described earlier; this is definitely a good thing there, because the lack of alternative staircases mean they have to be faced sooner or later and let the player spend time preparing a strategy, but in Crawl, when they could just use a different staircase, it might not work so well.)

[galehar]

The rule for this in NetHack is relatively simple: monsters cannot move or take actions (as if they had a zero movement and action speed) until they and the player have simultaneously been on some level at the end of a turn (and after a turn ends, the player gets the first move on the next turn). So monsters following you downstairs can still attack; monsters that fell through traps onto the level can attack you as soon as you come downstairs; if you stair-dip, monsters can be active next time you arrive; and so on. (It makes going downstairs when slowed risky, too, as multiple turns can end just after the player goes downstairs, although players can only be slowed in variants.) A similar or identical rule would seem to make sense in Crawl.

Thanks, that's a great idea. I haven't though about depriving monsters following you of their turn to attack you. That would be bad.

(NetHack's rule also allows the player to run back up the stairs if they dip and see something they can't handle, like the eels described earlier; this is definitely a good thing there, because the lack of alternative staircases mean they have to be faced sooner or later and let the player spend time preparing a strategy, but in Crawl, when they could just use a different staircase, it might not work so well.)

But in crawl, taking stairs take more time (1.6 turns), so the monsters do get the chance to kill you while you climb back. So I think it's ok.

[FlyingPants]

The obvious solution is to remove perma death.

[danr]

Is this ready to post to the wiki? That nethack rule is beyond my ability to grok right now. My proposal now is a pretty specific tweak:

- When a player takes first takes stairs / shaft to a new level for the first time,
- and a monster is generated right next to the player,
- it should be the player's "turn".

This would not apply when the player willingly does a random teleport or takes an escape hatch, because those are intentional gambles and should not be made "safer". This is in distinction from stairs / shafts which are forced on the player - you can't play without taking stairs to new levels, and shafts are also forced on the player and are nasty enough.

This also would not reward stair dipping - once you are safely on a new level, you have the option to safely explore it from there instead of trying new stairs into another "blind" area.

The monster would be awake / unaware / resting just as normal, and would get to act in their normal turn and could still get an attack on the player, but at least the player has an opportunity to blink or something. What should not happen is that the player is killed by something before they have any opportunity to respond to its presence.

What this does not address is the many other ways in which one can get blind-side one-shotted, such as just meeting something the instant you open a door or the instand anything comes into LOS. Hm.

[TwilightPhoenix]

"You open the door.
Elrocha shouts!
Elrocha mumbles some strange words.
The crystal spear hits you!
Ouch! That really hurt!
You die..."

Not really sure how prevent that though other than making door manipulation a free action, which would mess other stuff up...

[MrMisterMonkey]

it can happen when you travel into sight of monsters too

[TGW]

Monster shouting should take a turn. It would solve stuff like this and buff offensive stealth, plus it's symmetrical.

[galehar]

Is this ready to post to the wiki? That nethack rule is beyond my ability to grok right now. My proposal now is a pretty specific tweak:

- When a player takes first takes stairs / shaft to a new level for the first time,
- and a monster is generated right next to the player,
- it should be the player's "turn".

It should apply to all monsters on the level, no just the ones next to the stairs. Getting one shotted by a pack of yacktaurs isn't more fun than by a hydra. It should apply when the player first enter a level by whatever mean (shaft, stairs or hatch). Making a special case for hatches is more complicated and not really needed.

What this does not address is the many other ways in which one can get blind-side one-shotted, such as just meeting something the instant you open a door or the instand anything comes into LOS. Hm.

I don't think there's anything to do for that. The only thing that could be done would be to always guarantee initiative for the player when meeting monsters. Seems way too nice to me. And would render antenna mutation and Ash's monster detection almost useless. Also, those kind of deaths (such as the Erolcha example) are quite rare. And shit happens

[Curio]

And shit happens

It is quite life-affirming statement. One of a reasons why i love Crawl - it much like a real life in terms of "shit happening".

No matter how good you are, how prepared you are, sooner or later shit will hit the fan

On a related note:

Monster shouting should take a turn. It would solve stuff like this and buff offensive stealth, plus it's symmetrical.

I agree with this. For player, shouting, commanding to attack, etc. takes one turn (played priest of Yred just right now).
So it's a bit unfair that monsters don't have to "choose" between - alert everyone around about presence of another orb-seeking adventurer OR just one-shot him with crystal spear

[syllogism]

It appears to me that the hydra was already awake and likely didn't spawn next to the stairs; he had already been on lair 1 previously. He also got to act before the hydra did. In fact, I don't think I've ever died immediately after taking the stairs down; is that even possible as the monsters are asleep and waking up is an action. Perhaps speed >10 monsters might get to act, but for some reason I don't recall that occurring either. Of course I haven't been playing in quite a while so my memory might be fuzzy.

[Grimm]

One of a reasons why i love Crawl - it much like a real life in terms of "shit happening".

No matter how good you are, how prepared you are, sooner or later shit will hit the fan

I second this. Eliminating all crazy deaths from Crawl would weaken the game. The one essential rule of Crawl is:
everything can go from excellent to completely wrong within one turn.

Just like life.

[Zicher]

I second this. Eliminating all crazy deaths from Crawl would weaken the game. The one essential rule of Crawl is:
everything can go from excellent to completely wrong within one turn.

Just like life.

Heavily seconded. Luckily, so much more from Crawl.

[szanth]

Monster shouting should take a turn. It would solve stuff like this and buff offensive stealth, plus it's symmetrical.

It doesn't already? That's horrible. It takes a turn for players, why isn't it the same for them?

[danr]

Making shouting takes a turn is a really elegant solution. It's a very significant action as it has the potential to bring a lot more monsters into the fray. While shouting may not take that long itself, there is also reaction time.

So yes, I think shouting should have a time cost.

But does a hydra shout?

[mageykun]

But does a hydra shout?

They roar.

But to be fair, they only need to waste one head-action on roaring. The rest can concentrate on moving the legs, and/or biting you. :p

[galehar]

Monster shouting should take a turn. It would solve stuff like this and buff offensive stealth, plus it's symmetrical.

It doesn't already? That's horrible. It takes a turn for players, why isn't it the same for them?

We don't have player/monster symmetry has a design goal. Plenty of things are different, and that's perfectly ok. I have no problem with monsters shouting while they walk toward you or attack you. For the player, shouting is a more significant tactical action (orders to allies), so it's ok that it takes a turn. And it would be cumbersome on the interface if it didn't.

[Zedd]

What if when you tried to go down/up stairs that have a monster adjacent to them (in the next level, the one you're going to) the game prompted you?
"There seems to be a monster near the stairs. You can hear it [insert the sound the monster makes, such as 'talk', 'hiss', 'roar']. Do you really want to go [down/up]?"

That would make for awesome possibilities:
1- experienced players can try to guess based on previous experience and monster sound. A talking monster on D:3? Maybe it's Sigfried. A roaring monster in the Lair? It could be an hydra.

2- there could be a chance for the game not prompting you when the monster has any level of stealth. The game could then diplay the message "You are surprised by a [monster name]!". This would keep a chance of said instadeath in the game.

Of course, the game should prompt you only when at least one of the monsters adjacent to the stairs you are going to is awake/alert. If they are all sleeping or idle, then you can't really hear them talk, hiss or roar, can you? And it doesn't matter, because they're all asleep and you can go up the stairs (relatively?) safely if you want to.