Require killing Hell/Pan lords to get their runes

[Eldray]

Right now the runes in Hell and Pandemonium are placed on the floor, and the uniques tend to follow the player.

As a result, it's possible to simply lure the unique out of his lair while keeping at the edge of LoS, and then either wait for them at a corner and use Controlled Blink to quickly go past them towards the rune, or even lead them in a circle around an obstacle.

Such techniques can often result in being exposed to less attacks from the unique compared to attempting to kill him, and thus tend to be attractive.
However, getting the rune in this way is rather anticlimactic, and makes the unique feel underutilized.

So, how about simply putting the runes in the inventories of Dispater, Ereshkigal, Asmodeus, Antaeus, Mnoleg, Gloorx Vloq, Lom Lobon, Cerebov, and of the random pan lords who have a demonic rune, or alternatively making the rune appear on the floor (in its original position) only when the unique is killed?

[banei]

How do stealth based characters go about killing the Demon Lords?

[Galefury]

How would this be more interesting than the status quo? Having multiple ways to get the rune is a good thing.

[cerebovssquire]

I would say that only about 50% of current Pandemonium vistors are capable of killing Cerebov and that about the same number would be taking serious risks in engaging Gloorx Vloq. You are restricting the amount of characters viable for extended by introducing this, only further increasing the current problem of "stuff that is good before extended but weak during extended", similar to a number of gods (Okawaru, Beogh, Yredelemnul, Fedhas...). Definite no from my side.

Also, ninjaing is just as interesting as killing the lords. So many ways to do it... zombies+recall, cBlink, just running because of lack of cBlink, Zin, etc.

[galehar]

There was the idea that Pan lord you've steal from had a chance to come after you during the orb run. I think it was actually implemented. Was it?
This gives a reason to try to kill them while not forcing you to.

[Jeremiah]

I think it was actually implemented. Was it?

Yes.

At least in trunk, I don't know if it's in 0.10 but I have definitely come across Cerebov on the orb run after stealing his rune.

[Eldray]

How would this be more interesting than the status quo? Having multiple ways to get the rune is a good thing.

Well, the problem is that being able to steal the rune results in the specific abilities of those uniques mattering much less, and their melee attack, HP and resistances being totally irrelevant.

Perhaps another solution could be to force the uniques to stay within 1-2 tiles from the rune, and design the rune room so that they can't be be attacked from outside their spell/melee range.

At least in trunk, I don't know if it's in 0.10 but I have definitely come across Cerebov on the orb run after stealing his rune.

But if he was successfully bypassed when getting the rune, it's probably even easier to bypass him during the orb run, so that doesn't seem it would have much effect on difficulty.

[sardonica]

However, getting the rune in this way is rather anticlimactic,

LOL

Getting chased by a Pan Lord as a Spriggan is anticlimatic? Okie dokie.

[galehar]

But if he was successfully bypassed when getting the rune, it's probably even easier to bypass him during the orb run, so that doesn't seem it would have much effect on difficulty.

Not really. In his vault, you know where he is and you know the layout. During the orb run, they can show up anytime. Maybe you can get several at the same time, or a unique Pan Lord and a random one.

[Jeremiah]

Also, no controlled blinks/teleports on the orb run.

[Galefury]

Once I got jumped by Cerebov on D:1 and killed him in an epic dragonspam battle of attrition while fighting off the extra orb run spawns. That was pretty cool.

Edit: yes, this was offline. Also, yes, I could have just walked past.

[Narretz]

What if the Pan Lords would defend their rune rather than going after the player? I guess this sort of "intelligent" behaviour, is new to Crawl, but maybe it could be a nice alternative. (still makes it more difficult for Stelath based characters)

[galehar]

What if the Pan Lords would defend their rune rather than going after the player? I guess this sort of "intelligent" behaviour, is new to Crawl, but maybe it could be a nice alternative. (still makes it more difficult for Stelath based characters)

They already have a patrolling flag that make them go back to their rune if they lose you. Maybe the AI can be tweaked to make it harder to lure them away. Like they follow you but not too far from their rune. Might be interesting. Opinions from the experienced Pan looters?

[Kate]

What if the Pan Lords would defend their rune rather than going after the player? I guess this sort of "intelligent" behaviour, is new to Crawl, but maybe it could be a nice alternative. (still makes it more difficult for Stelath based characters)

They already have a patrolling flag that make them go back to their rune if they lose you. Maybe the AI can be tweaked to make it harder to lure them away. Like they follow you but not too far from their rune. Might be interesting. Opinions from the experienced Pan looters?

It sounds pretty reasonable for patrolling monsters to give up chasing you and go back to the spot they're supposed to be patrolling after a while, yeah. There's some early vaults that use nasty patrolling monsters (guardian serpents I think), it could help there too - so if you can survive running away for a bit they'll give up chasing you and go back to the vault - currently I think you usually need to teleport away to get them off you.

[njvack]

They already do that pretty effectively (killing Cerebov with freezing cloud is hard if you don't have a bolt trap).

How does a bolt trap fit in with freeze clouding Cerebov?

[evilmike]

They already do that pretty effectively (killing Cerebov with freezing cloud is hard if you don't have a bolt trap).

How does a bolt trap fit in with freeze clouding Cerebov?

There was an AI bug where cerebov would refuse to step over a bolt trap, and just stand there (even while dying to a cloud). I found it out by accident, and exploited it to kill him once. I think minmay did this too.

[KoboldLord]

Forcing players to kill a unique every time that unique generates will cheapen that unique. At the moment, Cerebov has a reputation of being an extremely powerful opponent. You might outsmart or outmaneuver him, but you probably won't have the raw power to simply kill him when you meet him. If players are forced to kill him in order to progress, they will grind in the Abyss or grind Hell Effects in order to do so. Not only will this create hours of tedious grinding for every 15-Rune character, in every single 15-Rune game the allegedly tough Cerebov will end up going down like a diseased and intoxicated hobo against the Muhammed Ali that is the post-grinding player character. Consequently, Cerebov will turn into one of several lame uniques that gets brutalized every time he turns up in an actual game, even though his stats are apparently the same.

Crawl isn't about killing everything that spawns. Sometimes you can accomplish your objective in other ways, and that's not only fine it's desirable.

[Blade]

At the moment, Cerebov has a reputation of being an extremely powerful opponent. You might outsmart or outmaneuver him, but you probably won't have the raw power to simply kill him when you meet him..

!lm hangedman trwz uniq=cerebov 1 -tv

(for those of you who don't use footv, a summary: Statue troll kills cerebov in a few hits without taking significant damage)
Note that he could have done this since around his third rune.

[KoboldLord]

!lm hangedman trwz uniq=cerebov 1 -tv

(for those of you who don't use footv, a summary: Statue troll kills cerebov in a few hits without taking significant damage)
Note that he could have done this since around his third rune.

Yes, unarmed hybrids are very high-damage characters, and they can very efficiently reach the point where they can kill the toughest uniques. Not every good build can do the same nearly as quickly, however, so players who want to play the whole game will be able to enjoy a choice between being straightjacketed into a tiny handful of builds making up a fractional subset of possible or fun builds, or they will submit to grinding the Abyss until their slower build can make up for its inefficiency. Forcing every player to religiously optimize their character for damage output at the exclusion of all else should be self-evidently undesirable.

[XuaXua]

Here is the problem I have with Cerebov.
His tactic, apparently, is to return to his room the instant you get out of view.

But, if you steal his rune, he does not change tactics. If you take the rune, he should hunt your ass down with prejudice. If a monster can see you, he knows your location and will find you. This makes leaving a big priority. I couldn't take Cerebov down, but I hung around the place to refuel and snag more toys and sort my inventory and local stash.

I know he appears in the orb run for vengeance if you haven't beaten him, but to be honest, he should at least chase your ass out of his realm.

[BlackSheep]

It wouldn't be a horrible thing if it's not too hard to implement. It preserves the ability to ninja the rune, but doesn't let you get away with it by just leaving the vicinity.

[njvack]

Here is the problem I have with Cerebov.
His tactic, apparently, is to return to his room the instant you get out of view.

But, if you steal his rune, he does not change tactics. If you take the rune, he should hunt your ass down with prejudice. If a monster can see you, he knows your location and will find you. This makes leaving a big priority. I couldn't take Cerebov down, but I hung around the place to refuel and snag more toys and sort my inventory and local stash.

I know he appears in the orb run for vengeance if you haven't beaten him, but to be honest, he should at least chase your ass out of his realm.

Flavor-wise, sure. Gameplay-wise, Cerebov isn't particularly fast, so just walking or translocating away is not hard.

One thing that could happen -- if you steal the rune, you get a mini-Orb-run experience -- Cerebov might randomly teleport near you, or the level could spam Balrugs at you as you head to the portal out. Grabbing the rune could also kill cTele on the level.

[Patashu]

Here is the problem I have with Cerebov.
His tactic, apparently, is to return to his room the instant you get out of view.

But, if you steal his rune, he does not change tactics. If you take the rune, he should hunt your ass down with prejudice. If a monster can see you, he knows your location and will find you. This makes leaving a big priority. I couldn't take Cerebov down, but I hung around the place to refuel and snag more toys and sort my inventory and local stash.

I know he appears in the orb run for vengeance if you haven't beaten him, but to be honest, he should at least chase your ass out of his realm.

Flavor-wise, sure. Gameplay-wise, Cerebov isn't particularly fast, so just walking or translocating away is not hard.

One thing that could happen -- if you steal the rune, you get a mini-Orb-run experience -- Cerebov might randomly teleport near you, or the level could spam Balrugs at you as you head to the portal out. Grabbing the rune could also kill cTele on the level.

Haha, I like this idea. Makes pan less of a 'map, ctele in, yoink, ctele out' fest.

[smock]

Cerebov isn't particularly fast, so just walking or translocating away is not hard.

Does it then follow that no monster slower than a controlled blink is threat to players that can cast controlled blink?

I think Pan lords should give chase. They could have the power to teleport to you, teleport to near exits, or teleport/summon you to them. The response would be to cTele to an exit and then enter the next level, potentially at low HP or MP. Still, it'd be better than the current behavior.

I also think that Ninjaing is just fine but perhaps too common. It seems like ninjaing the fiery and dark runes is optimal play for the majority of builds (all builds?). Either pan lords should be better to fight, ninjaing should be harder, or some builds that like to ninja should prefer be tweaked slightly in ways that would encourage them to fight rather than ninja. Nerfing apportation, for example, would encourage fighting.

[smock]

Does it then follow that no monster slower than a controlled blink is threat to players that can cast controlled blink?

In Pan? Yes.

I really do wonder why that spell persists.

[Dustbin]

Just add -ctele to pan lord floors

[Eji1700]

Just add -ctele to pan lord floors

It's starting to get silly though. Why have controlled blink if you have to add -ctele every time you want something to actually be a challenge for blinkers? Without cblink you can actually have blink scrolls be more than a mid game emergency button because you don't need ctele everywhere.

Anyways off the point. Cblink aside I think stealing the rune is just fine and completely within the spirit of the game. Being able to ninja runes is so fundamentally "crawl-like" to me.

[Midpoint]

Meh, I'm pretty happy with the status quo.
I find -cTele incredibly annoying and it is already in high use between the Hell ends, Elf end, Slime end, and all of Tomb. Those conditions (except for elf) all lift after you get the rune. Plus, in Pan - rand Tele is still a viable way to escape the rune vault after you've snagged the rune, so who cares about -cTele at that point (the nastiest stuff is probably already next to you anyway and exits tend to be scattered randomly). Not to mention, you can already spawn at or a couple steps from the rune, pop a Tele charge and leave as it is. -cTele wouldn't change that.

So, flip it around and make it interesting. No change in behavior when you enter the level, but have the Pan runes impose a Stasis condition when you pick them up until after you leave that Pan level (arguably a much worse condition than -cTele). Just getting to the rune is the easy part, and CBlink still helps up till there, but do you have a path to the exit? No buffs or alteration of Pan lord behavior required. Fast characters can still sneak by and outrun the slower lords. Gloorx will... be a problem if he knows where you are. But hey, at least you don't have to worry about summoned eyes or other paralysis on your jog out! Constriction from X would become particularly nasty, however.

I figure it fits well with the "incredible weight" warning when you hit the pan lord levels. You can add a "the weight intensifies with the power of the rune" message or some such. "When you pick up the rune, you feel tied to this level/you feel a strange sense of stasis."

[bobross419]

Why is it so important to prevent other people from playing a certain way? I kill all uniques because that is what is fun for me, but if someone else has fun ninjaing runes then it doesn't affect me at all.

[absolutego]

Just add -ctele to pan lord floors

It's starting to get silly though. Why have controlled blink if you have to add -ctele every time you want something to actually be a challenge for blinkers? Without cblink you can actually have blink scrolls be more than a mid game emergency button because you don't need ctele everywhere. [...]

maybe i'm not reading this correctly, but -ctele floors are just about the main reason to have cblink.

edit: wow, there's a lot of wild stuff in this thread. stasis when you pick up a rune?

[njvack]

Yeah, stasis might be a bit extreme, but I do see things from the "I ninja'd the rune and I'm just gonna cTele to the portal, rest off my glow, and move on? Really?" angle. I kinda feel like the rune guardians might at least give vigorous chase if they're still alive. Maybe they're just used to scaring adventurers off empty-handed and forget to check for the rune?

[rchandra]

Perhaps let the lords always know where you are while you have the rune? at least if you need a long rest that might not be safe.

[dpeg]

There was this idea that unvanquished sentinels can resurface during the orb run. But I agree that it'd be fun if cheated pan lords would chase you through Pan.

[Stormfox]

Give 'em the Boris treatment. They can respawn on any newly created level...which in Pan, is all of them.

If you think landing in the middle of Hellion Island is bad, imagine having Cerebov on the other side of the lava waiting to firestorm you after the tormentspam.

[Galefury]

There was this idea that unvanquished sentinels can resurface during the orb run.

This is already the case. It's pretty fun. Cheated lords chasing you through Pan might also be quite interesting. Having them always know where you are while you are still on their level and have the rune would certainly be cool. Having them reappear on later Pan floors could also be nice.

[dpeg]

Galefury: oh my, I am so out of the loop (missing that they can appear during the orb run). On the other hand, I never ninja anything. Runes should be got the hard way!

Regarding the Great Pan Chase: I could imagine that there's a chance that a cheated Pan lord will appear on future Pan levels (special or not), with his/her/its entourage. They shouldn't spawn in LOS; there should be a level sound ("You have an awfully familiar feeling" or whatever) and they should perhaps know where you are.

[BlackSheep]

I like the idea of Pan lords hunting you, but I don't think they should appear on levels with another rune.

[mageykun]

I like the idea of Pan lords hunting you, but I don't think they should appear on levels with another rune.

At least, not without support for competing factions. I want Pan Lords fighting their rivals.

[The Mantis]

Horrid initial idea. Pandemonium Lords should have better rewards for killing them, though. No real reason to apart from 15,000 EXP and whatever they use in combat.

[XuaXua]

Horrid initial idea. Pandemonium Lords should have better rewards for killing them, though. No real reason to apart from 15,000 EXP and whatever they use in combat.

I CONCUR.

[njvack]

Please tell me the post colors are just for jokey times?

[TwilightPhoenix]

No, the colors are absolutely serious and are now mandatory!

Also, the Pan and Hell Lords do have a few rather nice drops, such as the Sword of Cerebov and Staff of Dispater. Not all of them do though. Maybe if they all had a nice fixed art? Though at that point in the game, there really isn't much loot you need either...

[njvack]

Hm, I'd thought the Staff of Dispater was the only lord drop that was worthwhile. I mean, unless you're a long blades user doing Pan before finding a decent long blade or something...

It would be neat if the lords all had something that was worth getting for some character build. Especially the Hell lords -- then you could say "my SpEn really wants The Crunchy Macguffin of Ereshkigal, so I'll try Tar first and work extra hard to kill her..."

[Stormfox]

I mean, unless you're a long blades user doing Pan before finding a decent long blade or something...

If your primary means of damage is a long blade, and you don't have one better than Cerebov's sword, and you are still able to pry that sword from his cold, dead hands... you don't actually need that sword.

[pratamawirya]

I mean, unless you're a long blades user doing Pan before finding a decent long blade or something...

If your primary means of damage is a long blade, and you don't have one better than Cerebov's sword, and you are still able to pry that sword from his cold, dead hands... you don't actually need that sword.

Sounds like a trap not rarely found in AAA games.