Overabundance of detect/remove curse scrolls?

[AtT]

It seems to me that by mid-late game or even somewhat early game that there are huge numbers of detect and remove curse scrolls. At first I just thought that I was finding a lot just because of the randomness to it, but after playing many many games and finding tons of these scrolls, way more than I have ever needed, I decided to post this.

I think that maybe the detect and/or remove curse scroll drop rate should be reduced so that the whole "cursed or uncursed" thing has a greater impact on the game. I don't think of it as an annoying minigame but with the drop rates it doesnt seem necessary to question what you try and don't try on because if you get screwed by the mechanic, it will be in the first few dungeon levels and you can just start over if you die of it. I'm not suggesting that these scrolls be made a rarity or anything but it seems like they are in an unnecessarily large supply. Even if no one else thinks that more emphasis on impact of cursed items, I still think a reduction should be made simply to reduce clutter. Perhaps making the drop rate more similar to identify scrolls even would be enough (it seems much much higher).

I wanted to know what you guys think. Also, most of my observations have been taken in stable and I'm unaware if these drop rates have been changed in trunk, but they seem to have not been.

It's also possible that I just find a shitload of these scrolls every game because random drops are crazy like that, but I think it is unlikely that I would find way more than I need consistently.

[rchandra]

Strongly disagree on reducing remove curse. partly because of Ashenzari, but I've also gone as far as D:12 Lair without finding remove curse.

I thought it was around the same as identify on average, maybe lower, so I guess we're just having different luck. You should play Ashenzari more often; I never find enough .*curse.* scrolls when I'm with her. If nobody who knows answers, I'll take a quick poke in the code to see if I can find the rates, for curiosity.

I'd imagine mummies can cause you to want quite a few as well if you use non-edged or ranged weapons at all.

Detect curse does have some issues in that it encourages an annoying use pattern (as posted elsewhere, by minmay I think); personally I'd like to see them replaced with more remove curse but don't really mind them as is. I just won't use them optimally, and that doesn't matter because I surely do little or nothing else optimally in crawl :).

[galehar]

identify: 18%
remove curse: 11.15%
detect curse: 5.11% (almost 10% on the first floors)

[Galefury]

Ash is not a problem, more curse scrolls can be generated to make up for generating fewer remove curse scrolls. I agree that curses are mostly an early game problem. After Lair the fewest ?RC I ever got down to was about 5. This made me a bit wary of tomb, but I never actually used up my stack. People who have played longer probably have, but I expect that to be rare.

[AtT]

I've found that I can't cut food (in stable) even with cursed bladed weapons equipped. I guess this is a greater "presence" of the curse aspect but it doesn't seem to make sense. Luckily there's so many damn scrolls. I really am surprised that they're that low though I seem to find so so so SO many every game hmm.

[KoboldLord]

I've found that I can't cut food (in stable) even with cursed bladed weapons equipped. I guess this is a greater "presence" of the curse aspect but it doesn't seem to make sense. Luckily there's so many damn scrolls. I really am surprised that they're that low though I seem to find so so so SO many every game hmm.

Hey, buddy, you try butchering an animal into edible parts with a five-foot-long blade, or a cleaver at the end of a long pole. It never made sense that you could butcher with a bardiche or a katana. I'm surprised this was actually changed because it's such a small thing, but I dare say it's always bothered me.

[Kate]

You can butcher just fine with a cursed bladed weapon, if it's not working that sounds like a bug. It certainly works in trunk, anyway.

[evilmike]

I don't even bother picking up detect curse scrolls usually.

[greepish]

You know, what could be done is to reduce the prevalence of both detect and remove, but additionally allow Ash worshippers to sacrifice detect.

[AtT]

I don't even bother picking up detect curse scrolls usually.

This seems like a problem that there would even be an item that is so overabundant that it's not worth picking up in most cases.

[Kate]

I think the idea was already mentioned somewhere recently, but I certainly wouldn't be against just removing detect curse (I never use them either except for maybe once or twice in the really early game - after that they just stay on the floor forever).

[njvack]

The other somewhat interesting idea for ?DC was to have it work on everything in LOS, which would make finding that robe of resistance from Elf or Snake somewhat less tedious.

But I generally leave 'em where I find 'em, too.

[galehar]

+1 to removing ?DC. We'd need to give the weight to other scrolls. Which ones need to be boosted? Silence? Any other?
Here is the scroll generation code in case someone wants to look over the weights and suggest adjustments.

[XuaXua]

Reduce detect curse; I use them all the time when I'm not playing Ashenzari.

If you're removing detect curse, you need to boost remove curse.

[File200]

I rarely use detect curse because there are so many remove curse scrolls lying around. I sometimes use them early on to prevent wielding bad rings or armour. Making them work on everything in LOS sounds good; it reduces tedium.

Still, there are several tactically interesting scrolls that should get a boost in generation, like silence, fog, and vulnerability. Maybe holy word too. Silence is first in line because seriously, you never see them. (.1% of scrolls are silence for those who don't look at the file.)

[njvack]

Which ones need to be boosted? Silence?

Boost Silence. I only remember finding one, ever.

The "balanced by rarity" comment doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me -- the scroll is a mixed bag at best for most characters, and late-game, lots of dangerous casters are !sil anyhow. Finding one or two in the early game would give melee-ers a good tool for Orc Priest smite-mergencies.

Unless I'm missing something that makes them really powerful?

[Zelkelion]

There is no reason to remove Detect Curse just because some people don't use it. I use them whenever I pick up a new item, and I usually try to pick up multiple unidentifed items first for maximum use. There have been many times when I have not found Remove Curse, and I like the niche Detect Curse provides.

[absolutego]

i do use them. they may promote hoarding, but there's usually a lot of light armour and fast weapons with possible egos early on (up to orc). they also help with rings. design-wise i'm not high on the fact that they exist, but to me removal would probably make the game a little bit more annoying. just weighing in.

yes on boosting silence, it's pretty damn ridiculous how rare they are.

[dpeg]

+1 to remove ?DC. I also distinctly remember to have proposed exactly that, but then, there have been a number of things that needed several suggestions until they went in

If the ?DC probability is split among useful scrolls, this change will be a buff to players (not that that prevent complaints). I am fine with any selection of good scrolls for that purpose (including ?silence).

[Zelkelion]

Hmm... can we just have moar scrolls overall? >:D?

[rchandra]

boost silence to 140, same as the other rare scrolls. Perhaps give it depth mod 4 with blinking as the alternate, as all other rare scrolls have minimum depth?
This leaves 381, I suggest an extra 127 each to enchant armour, recharging, and remove curse. (EA/recharge because of the "look-alike" game)
The detect curses in the "early alternates" can be replaced with blinking and remove curse.

[XuaXua]

i do use them. they may promote hoarding, but there's usually a lot of light armour and fast weapons with possible egos early on (up to orc). they also help with rings. design-wise i'm not high on the fact that they exist, but to me removal would probably make the game a little bit more annoying. just weighing in.

yes on boosting silence, it's pretty damn ridiculous how rare they are.

I'm always scroll id'ing them and all "shit, there goes my cure mutation of scrolls!"

[Petro]

I use them quite frequently when worshipping Nemelex. Since he likes ID'd weapons better than non-ID'd I pick up huge quantities of glowing weapons, DC them, then equip through the ones that aren't cursed. A niche use, but I'd be sad to see them go.

[dpeg]

Hard to blame it as "scummy": It is quite obviously the best use of the item. It is not really necessary but that's not ?DC's effect but due to the omnipresence of ?RC.

The thing is that a scroll like Immolation (which caused painful read-identification) was saved since it is tactically interesting. I cannot see how ?DC could be interesting in any way. So it should better go and make place for more interesting scrolls.

[AtT]

I disagree that scroll of Immolation is "tactically interesting," it just makes you read-ID at full health and not right next to your stash or buddies. It seems to me that (at least regarding read-iding minigame) that scroll of immolation just adds to the tedium because all it makes you do is mash 5 until you heal up again. Not really suggesting their removal, but I do not use them. They might be helpful if you get surrounded by things that are weaker than you somehow?

[dpeg]

AtT: the fact that you do not use them does not mean the scroll is useless. It has saved my characters' lives more than once. Ever stormed by bees, for example?

[AtT]

I wasn't really arguing that it is a useless item. That sounds like a great use of the scroll or maybe mosquitoes or something. I'm not sure if they are better against rF- monsters? Anyway my main point was that I don't think it makes the read-id minigame more tactically interesting (I believe I misunderstood your post until now). I agree that Immolation has it's uses and just because I tend to forget the item doesn't mean it should me slated for removal. Detect curse, on the other hand..

[File200]

If you at least rF+ then immolation is pretty great for killing orcs below warrior level. And I'm pretty sure it hits through EV, so it's good against dodgy things that swarm you, like blink frogs and killer bees. You just need to use them as a preemptive measure.

The scroll ID mini-game is a separate issue, but I'm sure I've never been killed by immolation. It sort of gives you an incentive to scroll-ID in a safe location rather than wait until an emergency.

Detect curse, though, does nothing for the scroll-ID game, and it does very little for the equip-ID game unless you somehow lack remove curse. And it has no "Tactical" uses at all. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that immolation is one of many scrolls that I don't see enough of, and that I would rather have than detect curse.

[nicolae]

AtT: the fact that you do not use them does not mean the scroll is useless. It has saved my characters' lives more than once. Ever stormed by bees, for example?

Though, if you're going to use a scroll of immolation to save yourself, make sure that the part of your brain thinking "immolation is a great escape tool!" and the part of your brain thinking "I only have 7 HP!" are getting along and talking to each other. What an embarassing way to go...

As for the actual thread topic, I agree: either tone down the rate of ?RC or ditch ?DC. (Or, find some way to tweak it to be more interesting.)

[dpeg]

Yes, immolation is something to use early. Which makes it all the better, in my opinion.

[evilmike]

+1 to removing ?DC. We'd need to give the weight to other scrolls. Which ones need to be boosted? Silence? Any other?
Here is the scroll generation code in case someone wants to look over the weights and suggest adjustments.

Boosting scrolls of silence is a good idea. They are pointlessly uncommon... in fact, just yesterday I had the first time _ever_ where I used a scroll of silence tactically... and I play crawl a lot. Usually I just wind up read iding them and never finding another one in a game... or more often, just never finding one at all.

I can't suggest what to boost them to at the moment... this is just an observation of how they are too rare.

[njvack]

If you don't want to change the overall balance of scrolls, Random Uselessness could take up the slack, right? I'm not generally feeling like the various enchant scrolls and such are too uncommon.

[Stormfox]

Now that cursed items are no longer universally bad, the utility of ?DC has actually gone down. If I have ?RC to spare, I'll try on weapons and armour that I know to be cursed in case they turn out to be useful.

The best utility for ?DC would be if jewelry ID'd upon wearing, so that you wouldn't have to burn an ID scroll. But since jewelry doesn't wear-ID (or completely wear-ID in the case of artifacts), you don't end up saving a scroll. (And it's not as if ?ID is rare, unless Crawl is showing its love for you in a particular game.)

[snow]

I used to find curses pointless and think they shouldn't even be part of the game... then I played NetHack. In all honesty NetHack does it right when it comes to cursed items. Remove curse scrolls should be made exceptionally rare so detect curse scrolls are actually valuable. I feel removing detect curse doesn't solve the problem of the broken curse system in Crawl.

[AtT]

I agree that the curse system in crawl could use an overhaul. You mentioned nethack and I do agree that they did a good job balancing curses, but a horrible job with identification. Encouraging crap like waiting around on every item for your stupid dog to walk on it is almost game ruining for me. I think the "blue" statuses of crawl are good so that you don't have to try on every damn item for just a bit more AC.

And with the current system, what about removing curse armor and jewelry scrolls from the game entirely excepting ash worshipers who could still pray over remove curse and maybe choose what type of curse scroll they wanted. These curse scrolls (with the cursed status so meaningless currently) just add to the tedium of read-Iding without actually bringing any strategy to the process. If (basically) the only significant negative effect of read-iding scrolls is wasting them, why have simply annoying scrolls. I think either the severity of the consequences of read-iding should be increased or the "consequences" should be removed.

[Blade]

Yeah, cursed items are pointless right now; with every one of my non-Ash worshippers who've made it reasonably far in the game, I have used exactly one detect curse scroll (specifically, to ID it) and ended with 15+ remove curse scrolls in my stash.

I have had two games where curses have had a significant impact past D:2 or 3, and they were hardly more than a nuisance in both cases.

The only reason to keep the curse system as it now stands is Ashenzari, and an overhaul making them more significant for everyone else would certainly be a good change.

[greepish]

I'm a bit hesitant with making curses actually difficult to remove for better players if that's what you're saying blade, I'd rather not add "stuck with rF-- for 30,000 turns because the rng screwed me on RC" to my YASD list.

[AtT]

I'm a bit hesitant with making curses actually difficult to remove for better players if that's what you're saying blade, I'd rather not add "stuck with rF-- for 30,000 turns because the rng screwed me on RC" to my YASD list.

You're seriously overestimating the severity of the proposed changes. The chances of getting screwed that hard would for so long would still be small, but with less RC scrolls and maybe no DC, you'd be more hesitant to just weild/wear id everything in sight. If you still, with no RCs in sight, decided to try on everything you could find, especially artifacts and jewelry, it makes sense that that could lead to a splat or at least make things more difficult for a while.

[greepish]

Yeah I guess you've got a point, but it'd really suck also if you used a bunch of RC and only had one or two left, the the rest got burned up by freak chance and you suddenly can't ever try out new artifacts, at least not for a very long time. I'd be all for less RC if it were done at the same time as making strategic scrolls durable.

Edit: Which is just one more point in favor of strategic item durability I guess.