rework Beogh

[sdynet]

There are many grammatical errors. Please excuse me.


problem of Beogh
Unlike Yre or Hep, Beogh is difficult to recover when the Followers are lost. This restriction makes you passive. You have to manage your follower's HP during battle. If you don't want to lose your follower. In conclusion, being with Beogh is the way to become a boring and tiring manager. Resurrection power, it's extremely passive. the Cost is very high, If there's no corpse, you can't bring it back.

However, if you solve these problems, Beogh is no different than Hep. If you remove the resurrection power and Beogh gives you a strong follower, Beogh is no different than Yre. So, I brought plans to remove this boredom without invading the areas of Yre and Hep.


Remove Powers
● Give Item to Named Follower
● Resurrection

New Powers
● Promotion: Relative to Invocation and Piety, increase the target's HD. Even if you lose a follower, you can train Invocation and use Piety to make up for it. Once a promotion follower, it cannot be promoted again.
● Item military use: It is a mechanism similar to Curse item, the power of Ashen. Specifies the item for military use(To avoid confusion with Curse item, the color of Item military use should be yellow or blue.). The Promoted follower will wear items designated for military use by the Player. Military equipment is weapons, shields, armor, and helmet. The enchant of the followers' military equipment is fixed to zero. In addition, Artefact cannot use Item military use. it is not Curse item, you can remove the equipment with the Item military use.

Change Powers
● Bless your orcish followers: Remove item enchant blessings and Healing. With Promotion, it's easier to save a new soldier. you don't need to heal it.
● Orc reinforcements: When a player kills an enemy, Beogh often presents a weak orc band. Don't worry if a strong follower dies. Promotion the presented follower.

No Change Powers
● Smiting
● Recall your orcish followers
● Spread experience
● Walk on water: I think it suits Fedhas better, but it's not important.


explanation
This is an easy-to-manage army. The commander's job is simple. Recruit new recruits, pay equipment, and ship them to the front. If he is lucky, he will be promoted. Is he dead? Recruit new recruits, pay equipment, and ship them to the front.

an expected question - Use 'Item military use' and promote follower. And why not replace the equipment with Artefact?
It's theoretically possible. However, I think about 30 Piety consumed by the Item military use. and 10 Piety consumed by the Promotion. If the equipment is not replaced, the only cost the player has to pay for the promotion. Well, the followers will continue to die, and they keep replacing the equipment? Your army will soon go bankrupt.

This idea is still incomplete. Let me know if you have any good ideas. Thank you for reading it.

[nago]

The major rework I'd like to see with Beogh is the removal of all references to Jesus/Christianity, if DCSS' lore shouldn't refer to real theme\religions\whatever, as done for other several objects in the game.
Then remove it totally because we have already too many micro-manage allies gods in the game (sorry I loathe perma-allies in the game).

[tealizard]

The obvious way to rework Beogh is to make the allies passively respawn like hep ancestors, with a smaller, player-curated army. You get more use of the spellcaster type orcs because of the added durability from fight to fight, less of the well-known problems with permanent allies. You can see this sort of idea in action with hellcrawl, though there a similar approach is applied to yred and beogh just doesn't exist.

I think people should just let go on the whole Christianity thing.

[sdynet]

The major rework I'd like to see with Beogh is the removal of all references to Jesus/Christianity, if DCSS' lore shouldn't refer to real theme\religions\whatever, as done for other several objects in the game.
Then remove it totally because we have already too many micro-manage allies gods in the game (sorry I loathe perma-allies in the game).

I admit your taste. But be aware that some people like micro-manage. I do not think this is a micro-manage problem. As long as it's fun, people don't care how it is.

Well, If not the god of Orc? It's possible, but it's too complicated. I don't think complex is beautiful.
Freedom of faith is possible. but... follower, the orcs are enough. I don't want to make Beogh the god of Shadow Creatures.

[Wahaha]

What happens to the equipment when a follower dies? You make it sound like it disappears.

[Fingolfin]

What I would really want with Beogh is a way to choose which of my follower I recall, for example a menu listing all my orcs where I could toggle whether I recall them, and maybe also a "recall all" option.

[sdynet]

What happens to the equipment when a follower dies? You make it sound like it disappears.

Oh, sorry! I didn't have enough explanation. Item military use is not a gift. Replicating the equipment worn by the player.

For example, the player is wearing a demon Trident. Use this Item military. And then I promotion one orc. Then he orc wears a demon trident. Leave the player's demon Trident intact.

[sdynet]

What I would really want with Beogh is a way to choose which of my follower I recall, for example a menu listing all my orcs where I could toggle whether I recall them, and maybe also a "recall all" option.

That sounds okay. But no matter how good it is, being forced to play passive doesn't change. I want to minimize the passive that is enforced when I believe Beogh.

[Pereza0]

On another note, I really would like to be able to worship Beogh with any race.

I don't see any mechanics that would make it not work, just flavour. And that is easy to change the flavor to fit (you are the champion of the Orc cause, you don't need to be an actual Orc - Beogh is pragmatic like that. Only the orb matters. Player title could imply that he is seen more as a slave/mercenary/gladiator than as someone of the likes of Saint Roka if its race is not orc)

[gameguard]

What if you can challenge an orc warlord to 1v1. Other orcs will form a circle around the battle and shout random stuff. If you win, they let you join.

[sdynet]

What if you can challenge an orc warlord to 1v1. Other orcs will form a circle around the battle and shout random stuff. If you win, they let you join.

Even now. If you win, they let you join.

[chequers]

How would you mark an item as "military use"? It sounds even more fiddly than the current "give item" ability, because you would need to mark the item and then ensure the correct ally picks it up.

[Rast]

Here's how I think orc follower item use could work. Would require a fair bit of coding, but the end result would be nice for the player.

1) Followers pick up and use weapons&armour they find lying around the dungeon
2) Followers use their own AI (varies from orc to orc) to decide which items they like better
3) When a follower finds an item it likes better, it equips that and puts the previous item into the "orc armory", not the ground.
4) When a follower dies, its items go into the armory. Even if it dies over lava or water.
5) Once in the armory, items are fair game for other orcs, no matter where they are located. They will take the ones they like, and in turn drop their lesser items back into the armory.
6) The armory has limited size, perhaps 30 items, and once it fills up, the crappier items drop onto the ground.

7) At any time, the player can hit a key to bring up a screen with the current items for all his orcs, and also the extra items in the armory.
8) Also, if combat isn't going on, the player can use that screen to swap items around his orcs, the armory, and his own inventory.
9) The player can use that screen to lock items onto specific orcs so they never swap them out.

[duvessa]

The end result would be boundless micromanagement. There's a reason that's on the won't do list.

[Fingolfin]

Then how about taking the orc inventory completely out of the player's control ? For instance a fixed inventory for each orc archetype (polearms of course, for sanity), where promotion automatically changes the orc's equipment.

[Pereza0]

I think it would be cool to maybe have a sort of "shop" system.

Instead of recruiting orcs around the dungeon, you have an "orc champion shop" you can browse. Each orc comes with personalized equipment and a piety price. They cant get other equipment and they wont drop it if they die. Orcs in the orc shop have better chances of having good equipment than average orcs OFC. They can also have unique characteristics, like spells that they usually wouldn't have or mutations. They should get stronger over time, but not something as radical as it is now, to make it so you don't have to worry as much about the EXP they are getting

Removes the "recruit a helpless piece of **** and do your best so it doesnt die" minigame and makes orcs more unique and their loss more painful (as the cost you piety and they are more unique than Orc Warlord#11)

[sdynet]

Then how about taking the orc inventory completely out of the player's control ? For instance a fixed inventory for each orc archetype (polearms of course, for sanity), where promotion automatically changes the orc's equipment.

The other two opinions are interesting, but I'm most interested in this. I don't think it's hard to coding. I don't feel the burden of micro-management in this.
But if there is something missing, This mechanism completely removes 'item gift'. Of course, many people will think it was the most annoying part. But I think this is where Beogh is decidedly different from other similar gods.
I think Beogh's identity is a gift to Follower. So if possible, I'd like to leave this mechanism behind. I'm going to add a little bit more to this idea.

new power
Promotion(Active): Relative to Invocation and Piety, increase the target's HD. Once a promotion follower, it cannot be promoted again. promotion automatically changes the orc's equipment.

change power
Bless your orcish followers(Passive): Beogh occasionally bless one follower when Piety is above a certain number(not item enchant). If the weapon, shield, armor, and helmet worn by the player are not Artefact, copy that and gift them.

That's two things. What you do is simple. You find good equipment and wear it. That's it.
However, this method leaves the possibility of management. I think it's not a bad offer for them either.

[Shard1697]

I personally find that item gifting with beogh is very onenote once you understand how monster attacking works, because you always want to give your orcs fast polearms if they don't have them.

I would definitely be in favor of choosing who to promote though. Or anything that makes orc filtering less of a pain, frankly. It's very very tedious and annoying to try and get the right orcs leveled up.

[Fingolfin]

new power
Promotion(Active): Relative to Invocation and Piety, increase the target's HD. Once a promotion follower, it cannot be promoted again. promotion automatically changes the orc's equipment.

Why do you want to make it Invocation-dependent?

[Rast]

The end result would be boundless micromanagement. There's a reason that's on the won't do list.

I disagree. Your orcs would do a good job with item management on their own, and every so often you could check in to make sure they hadn't made any mistakes. Like a good boss does.

There could be a substantial piety cost to manually swapping items, so you'd only do it if really necessary.

[Rast]

Then how about taking the orc inventory completely out of the player's control ? For instance a fixed inventory for each orc archetype (polearms of course, for sanity), where promotion automatically changes the orc's equipment.

Then you lose the fun of equipping your guys with cool artifacts from the dungeon floor.

[sdynet]

new power
Promotion(Active): Relative to Invocation and Piety, increase the target's HD. Once a promotion follower, it cannot be promoted again. promotion automatically changes the orc's equipment.

Why do you want to make it Invocation-dependent?

If you do not apply Invocation-depending to a follower, the follower becomes too strong early.

[sdynet]

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/wiki/0.2 ... lease-Plan

I showed 0.23 Development and Release Plan(Under Consideration - Beogh Follower Menu) to Korean DCSS community.
There were various opinions about that. It would be interesting to compare differences between this place and the Korean DCSS community.
There will be a mistake in the translation process, but I hope your understand.

Opinion 1. The problem is not 'recall'. Frankly speaking, all we need is orc that uses polearm or crossbow. Other orcs are useless.
And neither 'current method' nor 'revamped method' of recall ability does not solve this problem. Filtering only polearm/crossbow orcs still needs long, bothersome process. So, It would be much better if player can choose the target of recall. For example, make player can 'mark' the specific orcs and recall only those 'marked' orcs. That way, it would be easier to manage and recall the orcs.

Opinion 2. The named orcs should always leave corpse when they die. Current 'orc resurrection' ability is too RNG-dependent(cuz of orc corpse generation).

Opinion 3. War-cry ability for players.

Opinion 4. Why can't Beogh players bring ther orc army to the swamp while Yred and Hep players can? I can't take my orcs to the swamp because they're too vulnerable to confusion+drown instakill. This isn't fair. All other orcs should have the ability to walk on water, too.

Opinion 5. What about changing the resurrection ability to resurrecting all orcs in sight, and reduce the piety cost?

Opinion 6. The problem is not a recall, but losing the followers. The risk of the death of follower is too high. There's no guarantee that the corpse will remain and also, piety could be lack even if the corpse remain. It makes players too tired to think deeply to save follower when they are close to the death. Let player can return the endangered orcs to the Orc mine... and when the orc is fully recovered, it responds to the call.

Opinion 7. Let player can sacrifice one follower to give him berserk or war-cry. This can be useful for battle. Then, 'screening' on Opinion 1 is also contained.

Opinion 8. I don't need an orc wizard or an orc priest. Get off from the promotion list. Instead, give Warlord the spell of wizard or priest.

Opinion 9. I agree with Opion 1 and Opion 8. I don't need any orc wizard or an orc priest. It's funny that you can't use power without a corpse. Is Beogh the god of necromancy like Kiku?

Opinion 10. I agree with Opnion 1. Recall is not important, it's necessary to pick the orc you want. Screening is a VERY ANNOYING and VERY ANNOYING process!

Opinion 11. If you should change the recall, I suggest two ways. The first is to recall only the selected followers, such as in Opinion 1. The other suggestion is blinking one orcs in sight to another location. I want to save my orc from death. Unless the corpse of orc remain, the resurrection is useless. When he dies, my efforts and sincerity in vain. I don't want to go through such an annoying experience.

Opinion 12. I agree with Opinion 1. I respect the solution that Orc is at risk of dying permanently. Anyway, 'Screening' is really annoying. You need to use slime walls, conjure Flame, stair, recalls, all sorts of things possible to kill unnecessary followers. This is really tired process. In addition, it would be nice if there is a way to make orc war-cry or berserk.

Opinion 13. Additional comments on Opinion 7. Let player use the magic of a random Orc Wizard or the Orc priest through the sacrifice of a follower.

Opinion 14. Additional comments on Opinion 1. I suggest a new ability(new power of Beogh) for screening. It's called 'excommunication'. Player choose a follower to be excommunicated and the excommunicated orc will be neutralized when you use the power. This power should not need a cost, since it is kind of self-annihilation.

Opinion 15. Additional comments on Opinion 14. Give inner flame and berserk to excommunicated orc. Of course, Beogh needs to protect other Orcs from this explosion.

Opinion 16. Beogh gives bolts for orcs with crossbow but why bower Orcs or slinger Orcs cannot be given any bullets? Isn't this a bug?

Opinion 17. Let's get rid of the orcs' promotion. Instead, Beogh will give you a lot of followers if you use recall.

Opinion 18. Please remove the limit of giving item... And opinions 1 and 14 are good. I like it.

Opinion 19. Beogh is the god of Smite and other abilities are just an option.

Opinion 20. Everyone's afraid of losing an orc because it's going to be hard to see a new Orcs since they'd passed the Orc mine. This problem may be solved if Beogh more frequently give Orcs or there are other mechanisms for similar purpose supported.

Opinion 21. I don't like that only Orcs can serve Beogh. It forces players to play with certain strategies.
(This opinion is controversial on korean dcss forum now.)

Opinion 22. I wish wizard and priest would become more useful. They die too easily.

[njvack]

Then you lose the fun of equipping your guys with cool artifacts from the dungeon floor.

Unless I'm totally mistaken, this is almost always a bad idea because of how monster combat works. I believe you basically want your buds to have a spear or crossbow.

However! If Beogh were just going to grant items to your orc buddies (which I think would be good) it would be pretty nice to be able to offer items to Beogh. Offered items would go into the pool of items giftable by Beogh, and be reclaimed to be re-gifted when orcs die.