Kobolds are just worse deep elves

[duvessa]

The kobold species is inferior to the deep elf species at almost all conceivable character builds.

Mage backgrounds
I do not think I need to explain why DE is better at these. Although Ko gets faster XLs and a better fighting aptitude, the huge differences in magic aptitudes and intelligence mean that the DE can actually get more fighting skill.

Berserker, Abyssal Knight, Chaos Knight, Skald, Fighter, Gladiator, Monk
Going just by aptitudes, Ko would look to be better than DE at these. However, there's a big problem: these backgrounds need to use melee weapons, Ko is small, and small species aren't allowed to wield many weapons. Picked maces? Have fun not being able to wield dire flails (the best common mace) or great maces. Long blades? Your aptitude is actually worse than DE's and you can't wield great swords. Axes or polearms, you might as well have chosen unarmed. Speaking of unarmed, guess which species has an easier time casting the form spells that make unarmed stop sucking?
Now of course, if you went with short blades or staves, your size doesn't matter...but if you went with short blades, that's its own punishment. And furthermore...

All of the above plus the launcher backgrounds
You know what's really good? Ranged combat. You know what DE has a +1 aptitude in and kobolds can't even wield? Longbows. Kobolds can't even use javelins. Pretty much every non-Mage background wants to throw or shoot stuff, and DE outperforms Ko at throwing stuff (because it's actually allowed to throw javelins) and at shooting stuff (because it's actually allowed to wield the best launcher).

Enchanter
Okay, well, Ko at least has Enchanter, right?
Ko has +2 dodging, +0 spellcasting, +0 hexes, +4 stealth. KoEn has 5 str, 16 int, and 15 dex.
DE has +2 dodging, +3 spellcasting, +3 hexes, +3 stealth. DEEn has 5 str, 19 int, and 15 dex.
Hey you know what really helps Enchanter? Hexes.


Why this is a problem
So Ko is better than DE at using inferior weapon classes and at swapping vampiric weapons (carnivore). DE is better at pretty much everything else. This is not a good look. It's not a huge disaster that DE is weaker than Hu, because there are still certain things DE is much better at (casting spells). But when one species is worse than another at pretty much everything, why play the species at all?

Possible solutions
Remove kobolds
This has come up many times for its own reasons, and I have to include it because of that. Removing kobolds would indeed fix the problem. It usually comes up in relation to halflings being redundant, but I think Ko is more redundant with DE (as you might have guessed from the rest of this post).

Buff kobolds' HP
Ko has better Fighting and XL apts than DE, but ends up with little to no actual HP advantage on spellcasting characters, and its HP advantage on Berserker is still not very big. Changing their crippling -2 HP aptitude to 0 (or possibly even better) would at least give them better defenses than deep elves.

Let small species use the same weapons as medium species
DE is better than Ko at using weapons because Ko isn't allowed to wield the best weapons, and some other weapons (such as tridents) become two-handed for them. Removing small species' weapon restrictions would solve this problem and make Ko decisively better at melee.

Buff kobolds' offensive power in some other way
If you want to keep the weapon restrictions, you could still make Ko more competitive by giving them huge aptitudes in those weapon classes. A two-handed broad axe at an aptitude of -2 sucks, but a two-handed broad axe at an aptitude of +4 might not. Tomahawks at +1 throwing compare really badly to javelins at +0 throwing, but tomahawks at +5 throwing might not.

Nerf deep elves' non-magic stuff
You can go the other way too, and give deep elves like -4 aptitudes in all weapon classes and stealth. I do not particularly like this as it makes DE even more one-dimensional, but it would make Ko better than DE at some things while avoiding any possible power creep.

Remove deep elves
I mean, I don't think anyone actually wants to do this, but it would, technically, solve the problem just as much as removing Ko would.

[Vajrapani]

I think the most elegant solution is just letting small species use the same weapons as medium species. It's just a crappy flavour-based mechanic in the first place, and nothing would really be lost if small species could use all weapons normally.

[Wahaha]

You didn't mention kobold's small size evasion bonus. Forgot how much that is. But regardless, yeah, I never noticed how silly this comparison is. I'd propose a medium rework giving them some unique characteristic.

[bel]

Overall, I agree with the OP. Though I think KoAs is a bit better than DEAs (because of needles).

I have never really liked Kobold and haven't played much with it.

[chequers]

It would be nice for weapon size restrictions (and all other player size mechanics) to be more clearly communicated, and having just three size levels for player species would go a long way towards improving that.

[Doesnt]

There's another option; nerf kobolds and kick them into the Advanced category as an explicit challenge race alongside Mummy.

I also feel obligated to point out that kobolds are significantly better at crossbows than deep elves, which helps early on ranged backgrounds since it takes forever to get to the point where you even have a longbow. Arbalests aren't size-restricted either (why???) so they have a viable endgame that way, if not really much of a better one than deep elves have.

[VeryAngryFelid]

As long as there are no explicit difficulty levels in DCSS it makes very much sense to have "just worse than N" species so I suggest to keep as many species as possible unless it causes problems to development.
Just to make my point clear I believe it would be better to have DD/Tr/Mu/Dr with -30% HP penalties for challenge games AND DD/Tr/Mu/Dr with +30% HP for new players than current situation when players don't play species with their favorite gimmicks just because the gimmicks belong to a single species which is too hard/easy for the player.

[nago]

I'm impressed: first time I see DE used to promote Ko removal, and it makes also sense!

I like the proposal "Buff kobolds' offensive power in some other way" but why not apply to Ha and just remove Ko?
I mean Ha are already the "melee" small race, it makes sense to made medium weapon somehow interesting for them.

[petercordia]

Kobolts can use crossbows to stab critters relatively effectively, right?
I mean, with high stealth & crossbow skill, the 1st shot should deal double damage, which is more important for crossbows than for longbows because crossbows have a higher base damage. I say 'should' because I haven't played a kobolt with a crossbow yet; it's on my to-do list

Even so I have to agree with the OP.
I'd prefer it if there was an interesting way to buff kobolts.

I like the suggestion of increasing the kobolt axes aptitude.
you could also make kobolts better at earth & transmutation than elves, so that they become the masters of passwall+Petrify stabbing.
Kobolts are already better at evocations compared with elves. If it is decided they are too weak, that could be buffed even further. (Or the DE evocations aptitude could be decreased.)

[petercordia]

As a suggestion for a specific power:

Maybe kobolts could get an innate Darkness as a racial power?

[VeryAngryFelid]

Kobolts can use crossbows to stab critters relatively effectively, right?
I mean, with high stealth & crossbow skill, the 1st shot should deal double damage, which is more important for crossbows than for longbows because crossbows have a higher base damage. I say 'should' because I haven't played a kobolt with a crossbow yet; it's on my to-do list

Stabbing works only with melee weapons.

[Siegurt]

Kobolts can use crossbows to stab critters relatively effectively, right?
I mean, with high stealth & crossbow skill, the 1st shot should deal double damage, which is more important for crossbows than for longbows because crossbows have a higher base damage. I say 'should' because I haven't played a kobolt with a crossbow yet; it's on my to-do list

Stabbing works only with melee weapons.

And blowguns...

[Stonar]

Now that I've won with all the races (braggy,) I'm realizing more and more that in my opinion, Crawl has too many races that are mostly "human but slightly different aptitudes." I mostly agree with the OP, except for the part where it totally ignores crossbows, which are absolutely a better choice for Ko than DE. But that's not really enough to make up for it. The only real generalist races that have no compelling features past different aptitudes are Hill Orc, Human, Kobold, Deep Elf. I personally think it's probably fine to have totally boring humans, humans that hit stuff good (HO) and humans that cast good (DE). Kobolds feel kind of like they're supposed to be humans that sneak good, but that's not really a full gameplan in Crawl. I'd be in favor of giving them a slightly stronger gimmick. It doesn't have to be big - Halflings, Tengu, Merfolk and Ogres barely have gimmicks, and it's enough to make them fun, IMHO. Carnivorous is even less important than it was before the food rework, and being small is pretty much net downside (as opposed to being large, where at least you get giant clubs (lol) and shield bonuses.) Even something really simple like full stabbing bonus with all short blades, or a 20% chance of not using a wand charge, or whatever would give them enough boost to make them feel a little more distinguished.

[tabstorm]

Weren't Kobolds just bad halflings before? I think it'd be fine to remove them, they aren't really much fun and don't have any unique mechanics going for them.

[CanOfWorms]

Kobolts can use crossbows to stab critters relatively effectively, right?
I mean, with high stealth & crossbow skill, the 1st shot should deal double damage, which is more important for crossbows than for longbows because crossbows have a higher base damage. I say 'should' because I haven't played a kobolt with a crossbow yet; it's on my to-do list

Stabbing works only with melee weapons.

And blowguns...

No, that was removed.

[Siegurt]

And blowguns...

No, that was removed.

Shows how recently I tried to take advantage of blowgun stabbing:
https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f ... 2422b7fc6e

[luckless]

What if kobolds got claws or a bite attack?

[Vajrapani]

Claws / Aux bite attack would be pretty negligible in terms of increasing overall species strength unless it's something like Claws 3 or a branded bite.

[Pereza0]

I personally like Kobolds.

Short Blades are good enough early on (often branded), you can get them in a good state almost instantly letting you invest on other things, you can move away from them later on if you feel like it.

Weapon restrictions is the biggest difference between small and medium species. Just having them differentiate by EV would make them a lot more samey. Might as well remove both Kobolds and Halflings in that case. The fun thing with them is to think about how you work around their massive drawback instead of playing them like every other species - you know, like you do with many of the fun species in Crawl.

Also, being able to be engorged always is fun for certain backgrounds which lets you indiscriminately spam some things you would otherwise have to be more conservative about.

Kobold will always have more HP from fighting plus faster XL progression and gets enhanced EV on top of that. They get to level up stats other than Int randomly. They are definitely less frail than DE in actual games.

I don't think there is so much redundancy here. If anything, all the solutions I see making small species or Kobolds stronger make them less unique compared to other medium/meaty species


Maybe pump up their stealth up to +5 and enhance their Dodging skill. Maybe increase their throwing skill without actually letting them use Javelins, making them better with needlestabbing but not with general throwables (unlike medium species, dunno why this aspect of them was nerfed). I prefer making their strengths stronger to making their weaknesses weaker and diluting them.


I have only beaten the game with one Kobold, but I never thought that they were perceived as a hard species. I don't think they are worse than Humans (at least in the early mid-game)

[Tumalu]

Kobolds are a minor conundrum. They get great physical aptitudes for sneaky stabbing, but really, you want hexes for that, which they are merely plain at. Furthermore, kobolds are greatly penalized at getting in melee range in general; -20% hp, terrible armor and shield apts, and the shield penalty for size (the exp investment to feasibly upgrade past buckler is IMMENSE). They are only good at using short blades, with bad apts and reduced equipment selection for all other melee combat. And honestly, +3 short blades isn't that large of a boon even for that build since you don't really need more than 12, maybe 14 skill.

So clearly, kobolds are not intended to perform melee combat apart from potentially as a stabber, for which there's still far better species to choose. Okay, that's fair; what other talents do they have? Gourmand is a boon for spellcasters, but ultimately permafood is not remotely a problem for non-spriggan/vampires, int is average, and apts are zero. Ranged? They're good at crossbows, which are already a mildly dubious weapon with nice damage but very slow attack speed, and liable to run out of ammo until you reach yaks in midgame. They used to have +3 throwing, but it was nerfed down to +1, which is bad since they can't use javelins.

Is there even a selling point here? I remember when they were rebalanced to make them different from halflings, and their apts just all went closer to zero. They are literally marketed in their description as more magical-oriented halflings, but feature all 0s in magic, as if it's supposed to be redeeming purely because it's not halfling. This also feels poor because Gourmand mainly benefits casters, but the mild convenience is not remotely worth durability penalties when there's no actual magic talent backing it up.

So what to do? Improve the throwing apt, for sure. Encourages use of needles and makes tomahawks able to compete with other species' javs due to higher skill. I really like the suggestion to give them racial Darkness, as it encourages taking the sneaky build with a unique boon that makes up for the lack of hex skill, giving the notion actual substance past fragile dagger knight. And if they're being advertised in their description as more magical halflings, maybe like, actually GIVE them some +1 apts in magic? I'd also like to see them come down to -10% hp, at least if magic apts are not raised; they already have armor penalties without excelling at magic to compensate.

[duvessa]

LOS reduction is extremely powerful, Darkness is a level 6 hex for a reason (and is too good even there, honestly). I think it's too good to give to a species unless they have a huge downside to compensate for it, like really slow movement.

[Tumalu]

Hmmm, point taken. However, I think kobolds are currently seen as extremely plain to the point removal regularly seems to come up, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to shift the species concept into that. They're already frail, poor at melee combat other than short blades (which are, well, short blades...) and do not excel at too much. They could take a bit more of a nerf and receive darkness in exchange. Frail, equipment-restricted species that isn't super good at things but has a strong los intrinsic.

[sanka]

I actually would support to create a race with nightstalker, and remove it from the random DS mutation list.

1.) Nightstalker is way too powerful for a random mutation. In a race, like kobold, it can be somewhat balanced with frail, slow movement, bad aptitudes, weak stats, etc. It does not need to be somewhat balanced against the other random mutations.
2.) Nightstalker can be very annoying for some players. Potentially annoying mutations do not work well as a random mutation. On a race it would not be a problem, one can simply not select the race if she does not like nightstalker, like felids.
3.) Nightstalker is game-changing and interesting enough that some players may actually want to try it out (unlike other DS mutations that are not as game-changing, and feels more like bonuses here or there). Scumming DS to get nightstalker is not fun.

Give Kobolds Nightstalker 3 and slow movement 1. Remove Nightstalker from Demonspawn. Nerf Kobold aptitudes, stats and HP slightly.

[Magipi]

I never had a character with nightstalker, and I certainly never used the Darkness spell. Why is that supposed to be that good? (I can see some edge case uses, like on the orb run, but otherwise I have no idea.)

[sanka]

I feel that the biggest danger in DCSS is to have too many monsters in your LOS.

[Wahaha]

Giving kobolds nightstalker would be cool but only if demonspawn got another cool mutation in exchange!

[Rast]

FR: all demonspawn mutations should be as cool as nightstalker.

[Tumalu]

Demonspawn muts could use some tweaking (freeze is tier 3 but downright disappointing by the time the freeze comes online, for example) but that's worthy of it's own thread.

Slow movement but nightstalker 3 sounds downright thrilling, imo. I had been thinking more like nightstalker 2 but I certainly would not complain. That's a slow species that actually sounds quite compelling to try out. Hmm, Ashenzari to expand range of monster sensing for supreme tactical control... I'm already thinking of things to try with it.

[Pereza0]

I like the Darkness idea.

Would emphasize them as physical/non-disabling stabbers that mostly walk up to their enemies to stab them... (and deal with the consequences if they fail), as opposed to Hexers like Vampires or Spriggans. I would add a bit more throwing skill for Needles (I mean, its not like Throwing will ever be too strong on a race that can use Javelins)

[duvessa]

walk up to their enemies to stab them... (and deal with the consequences if they fail)

This is not a viable character build, even with nightstalker. The mechanics of stealth actively work against this.

[Pereza0]

walk up to their enemies to stab them... (and deal with the consequences if they fail)

This is not a viable character build, even with nightstalker. The mechanics of stealth actively work against this.

You can sleepstab many things though. And its so cheap for Kobolds it leaves lots of left over XP you can easily invest into turning it into something more viable

[Nekoatl]

Kobolds are more suited to Artificer than Deep Elves, if nothing else... though I haven't been interested in Artificer ever since decks became Invocations-based....

[dolemite99]

If there's appetite for modifying the species to differentiate it better, I was just thinking the other day that it's odd that zero species in this game start out with any pips of fire resistance.

Undead species get a pip of rC+ innately. Undead, Nagas and Gargoyles resist poison innately and Gargoyles also get that nice rElec innately.

I doubt very much that giving a Kobold one innate pip of rF+ would make them "broken" or "overpowered". They are already a lower-HP race with some weapon limitations, so I don't think that innate rF+ would allow them to breeze through Zot:5. Unless there is a sacred design philosophy of "Orbs of Fire must remain terrifying for EVERYONE", I think it would be cool to give at least one species a free pip of rF+ innately.

Or give them rCorr instead of rF, and if flavor is a concern, go with something like "Kobolds grow up deep underground in volcanic regions, and their nests are choked with corrosive gases and pools of liquid flame." Ok, why not give them both rF+ and rCorr, and leave everything else as-is. I'd certainly play them more often after a re-tooling like that.

[svendre]

While I don't agree that kolbolds are exactly worse deep elves, I don't think they are designed very well. The biggest handicap they have is not being able to use "large weapons", limiting their shield/weapon choices. I don't feel like there is any concession big enough to warrant that penalty. The best thing about them is that they have high aptitude with xbows, so they make pretty decent hunters at the beginning of the game. Perhaps if the stealth mechanism was somehow reworked, they wouldn't seem so bad. I think they need the weapon selection handicap removed or else give them something new which is fairly powerful and unique. Adding in resists seems like a boring design. What they would have or do that is special isn't really obvious or clear to me. Maybe darkness, detecting traps, or some kind of limited innate invisibility. I really don't know, but they need some more defining feature.

[Pereza0]

While I don't agree that kolbolds are exactly worse deep elves, I don't think they are designed very well. The biggest handicap they have is not being able to use "large weapons", limiting their shield/weapon choices. I don't feel like there is any concession big enough to warrant that penalty. The best thing about them is that they have high aptitude with xbows, so they make pretty decent hunters at the beginning of the game. Perhaps if the stealth mechanism was somehow reworked, they wouldn't seem so bad. I think they need the weapon selection handicap removed or else give them something new which is fairly powerful and unique. Adding in resists seems like a boring design. What they would have or do that is special isn't really obvious or clear to me. Maybe darkness, detecting traps, or some kind of limited innate invisibility. I really don't know, but they need some more defining feature.

Honestly, their handicap is part of what makes them unique. And its not like every handicapped race in Crawl gets bonuses that 100% make up for it

[duvessa]

And its not like every handicapped race in Crawl gets bonuses that 100% make up for it

It's not that kobolds' bonuses aren't good enough - it's that they don't have bonuses at all in the practical sense. Everything they can do, DE can do as good or better. I didn't make this thread for Mu or Na or whatever because even though those species are probably weaker, they have some advantages that no other species does. This is not the case for kobolds.

[Siegurt]

Make 'em salamanders, keep them small, give them rFire, and have them add flaming brand to all unbranded melee/ranged attacks, give them slow movement, normal (or below average) hps, not-deformed body, some fire spell affinity, and lava walking.

[Greyr]

Remove them both, IMHO

[Siegurt]

Give Kobolds intrinsic Harm (like the amulet)

[truepurple]

Kobolds by mythical reputation have been about poison, so what if they specialized in poison?
Proficiency in poison magic.
immune to poison.
Able to eat poisonous stuff, like other kobolds.
Poisonous claw unarmed melee attack (only if damage is done though) and all mutations and spells that add to melee also gain poison and its easier for a Kobold to mutate strong unarmed attacks.
Poison weapon racial ability. They can stab their weapon in their flesh and add poison to it (all other attributes and to the weapon remain the same) this poison only lasts so long before you need to repeat it, and every time does a set damage to you. Poison from unarmed attack is stronger.
Ability to apply poison pot to weapon as an alternative to self harm.
Drinking poison pot causes mild healing?

If this is all too strong we could increase their drawbacks a little.

One problem with this, since there are already enemy kobolds in game, and they don't poison with their attacks...

[Pereza0]

That would sort of undo the whole "unedible corpse" thing that we got when poisonous corpses got removed. Their gourmand is already good enough anyway.

If you want to encourage blowguns a bit more, a bit of throwing will do.


Making them a bit better at poison magic could be nice, not really necessary, but Poison has Mephitic Cloud, which is a decent alternative to Hexes for stabbers. If they have poison resistance, you could do what Nagas/Vampires do and actually get in the mephitic clouds to stab, which is fun

[duvessa]

That would sort of undo the whole "unedible corpse" thing that we got when poisonous corpses got removed.

Also, ghouls already have it.

[byrel]

Maybe just giving them 3-4 more points of dex would solve the problem. It would boost their stealth and dodging, making them have the strongest mundane stabbing game of anyone except Spriggans (and a very different set of advantages than Sp.)

[radzia]

I vote for Nighstalker 1 for Kobolds.

Nighstalker fits perfectly with these mischievous sneaky creatures. So i gave them Nighstalker 1 and tested. It didn’t felt overpowered, what happened was that actually i enjoyed playing Kobold for the first time.
Also you can balance nightsalker with apts.
Maybe Fighting to 0, Invocation to 0 (gods don't like them either)

[VortexTurtle]

Nightstalker 1 for Kobolds would be neat. It would offer a unique twist on a rather mundane species. It would be easy to balance as well, if it's too OP just reduce some of Kobold's aptitudes.

[petercordia]

Is nightstalker 1 really that noticeable? I would have expected you'd need nightstalker 2 or 3 for it to make a big difference. I can't speak from experience though...

[Japicx]

Maybe Kobolds can be made more interesting based on what they're like as enemies.

For some reason there's a difference between kobolds and "big kobolds". Maybe when a kobold reaches a certain XL (13 or so), they become "big", giving some suite of differences (e.g., becoming Medium size, higher Strength, more health, better aptitudes for melee weapons/armour/shields...).

The other kobold enemies you'll encounter are demonologists, so maybe Kobolds should have a stronger Summonings aptitude (maybe even +3 to make them better summoners than Tengu and Barachim).

This might also be a reason to introduce more benefits to being Small. An interesting one might be that Small and Little players are lighter, so they're less likely to set off traps when they step on them. For example, you'd get a message like "You step on a teleport trap, but you are too light to trigger it!".

[TheMeInTeam]

My thought would be to give them more stuff in line with how the more annoying ones are early: blowguns/throwing style assassins, with a bit less HP penalty. Short blades aptitude is massive but begs for a shield, and they need huge XP with poor aptitude to do better than a buckler. Crossbows are strong when on mindelay but it takes a long time to find a good crossbow and get enough bolts.

They also have high evocations. Maybe bump their throwing up a bit more to compensate for lack of javelins?

Trap resist would be pretty valuable.