Species Proposal: Yokkaso

[yokkasomb]

How to play

Playable game source: https://github.com/YokkasoMB/Crawl-Yokkaso-Species
Instructions on how to compile the game : https://github.com/YokkasoMB/Crawl-Yokk ... NSTALL.txt

Purpose of Species
Currently in crawl it is much harder for a player to learn how to use magic as a primary playstyle than for melee or ranged. The purpose of this species is to provide new players with a simple and somewhat more forgiving species to learn how to be a caster than is currently available.

Species Description
Yokkaso are primarily casters with decent aptitudes in magic, and can sometimes have their spell costs refunded on high health (66% chance to refund spell cost at full health scaling linearly to 0% chance to refund spell cost at 50% health). They are also durable as they start with positive fighting and armour aptitudes, 1 rank of Sturdy Frame and get a second rank at level 8. These advantages are offset by having dismal aptitudes in almost all weapons and with both evocations and invocations.

Manual Description

Spoiler: show

Yokkaso are a species of tree spirits who live on the trunks of trees. Their close ties with nature give them a natural affinity for most spells. Their long and secluded lives have led to an innate understanding of themselves and their own place in the world, but little capacity for using tools or calling upon gods.
A Yokkaso's body is suffused with ambient magic drawn in from it's surroundings and when healthy has a chance to use this ambient magic in spellcasting. Because Yokkaso are tree spirits, their bodies are surprisingly capable of wearing heavier armour without interfering with their spells. They loathe bladed weapons of every kind, however they are somewhat adept with staves.

Species Select Description

Spoiler: show

Yokkaso can wear heavier armor and sometimes cast spells for free when healthy.

Base Stats and Attributes

Spoiler: show

-1XP
0HP
0MP
5MR

10 STR
7 INT
5 DEX
Equal chance to gain STR/INT every 4th level

Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

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You cast some spells for free while relatively healthy, increasing proportionally with your health.
Sturdy Frame 1 - improves a rank at XL8 for Sturdy Frame 2

Aptitudes

Spoiler: show

In-depth reasons for design choices
Sometimes cast free spells at high current health (This is a 66% trigger chance at 100% health, 33% trigger chance at 75% health, 0% trigger chance at 50% health and below, scales linearly).

Spoiler: show

This is the biggest characteristic of Yokkaso that will impact a players choices, and yes it is strong. (Too strong? Can be changed to refund half mana per spell, or only 1 mana per spell, or to happen less often.)

The aim of this ability is to encourage good play and good practices from players new to magic. To get the benefit of this players are more likely to invest more heavily in health and defences. This is because to get the most benefit players will need (a) higher HP so incoming hits have less impact on the "free spells", and (b) more defences than they would otherwise get on what they may perceive to be a glass cannon character.

There is also the hope that they will be more inclined to proactively mitigate how much damage they can take by considering their position relative to their enemies, to allow them access to the "free spells" for longer.

I don't want this to encourage bad play, so I don't think it should be active proportional to their health all the way down to 1%. In a situation like that you will likely have players on 2% health casting an emergency spell hoping for a tiny chance for it to not cost anything.

I think allowing it to happen less frequently down to 50% does two things (1) teaches players that when they reach certain health breakpoints they need to change their thinking about the situation they are in and maybe re-evaluate what is going on, and (2) encourages them to stay on higher current health percentages as often as possible even if they don't think they might die in the next turn or two.

An example of what I want this species to be able to do with this ability is for a new player to enter combat, throw out a few spells, get into trouble and reach 50% health and say to themselves "Okay I now have X amount of mana left to deal with the situation that's killing me, can I do it without dying or do I have to retreat and/or change what I'm doing?"

Note that this is NOT infinite mana, even at 100% health the character can and does run out of mana, and it does not bypass spell hunger, (and given their low int, spell hunger will be a thing for a while for their newest spells) so players will also learn that they should use the appropriate spells against popcorn vs dangerous enemies to save food. I anticipate the rate of free casts, or amount of mana returned will need to be fine tuned.

Sturdy Frame

Spoiler: show

Most casters typically wear the heaviest armour they can find that will still allow them to cast their spells at an acceptable level. For most casters this means they end the game in Fire or Ice Dragon Armour. Giving Yokkaso the mutation Sturdy Frame level 2 (reached at XL8) effectively allows Yokkaso spellcasters to reach a tier higher in end game armour, see below. Their +1 aptitude and having one rank from the start of the game makes players much more likely to start wearing real armour earlier, and to train the Armour skill earlier and for longer to make good use of this capacity the race has. This will help new players realise that a caster is not meant to forgo any kind of defences and that they can and should invest in keeping their character protected from physical damage beyond "kill it before it reaches me". Allowing a new player on a Yokkaso to survive in melee for than a few turns gives them an opportunity to learn what to do (and what not to do) when enemies do reach them as a caster.

Non-Yokkaso: 7 Encumbrance - 7AC - Swamp Dragon Scales, 11 Encumbrance - 8/9AC - Fire/Ice Dragon Scales, 15 Encumbrance - 10AC - Storm/Shadow Dragon Scales
Yokkaso: 7 Encumbrance - 8/9AC - Fire/Ice Dragon Scales, 11 Encumbrance - 10AC - Storm/Shadow Dragon Scales, 14 Encumbrance - 10AC - Plate Armour

Doesn't this mean the species can do everything?!

Spoiler: show

I certainly hope not! Given how powerful the spell ability is for casters, I wanted to ensure this class does not become the species of choice for doing anything hybrid. I also do not want this species to become the "strongeset" spell caster. That should remain with the Deep Elf. To help differentiate the Yokkaso from the Deep Elf I made the Yokkaso have some negative aptitudes in magic (ones that I believe are hard to use correctly for newbies like transmutations and hexes) and gave them distinctly average intelligence and no bonus MP per level. As a result they have much higher food costs than their Deep Elf counterparts, and while they might have a functionally similar "mana pool" at full health from range, as soon as any damage is taken their mana pool becomes a much more limited resource than a Deel Elf's.

I want Yokkaso to level a bit slowly to help keep them balanced for their area, but gave them 5 MR per level to try and normalise their MR, as newbies are a bit less likely to value MR appropriately and I don't want the species to have an unusually low amount of MR to overcome. This is just to keep them from being unusually vulnerable to MR check disables and not to make them able to ignore getting MR+.

I toyed with the idea of completely prohibiting the species from using many weapon types at all. I would consider this a valid option if the class becomes too strong of a hybrid in extended play.

Why I think Crawl needs a simple and durable magic caster:

Spoiler: show

Currently in DCSS the learning curve for becoming a pure caster is very steep, this is a shame because magic is incredibly well done in Crawl, and adds a LOT to the game. Many playstyles benefit in some way from having a few low level spells (apportation, portal projectile, passage of golubria etc) and players can and do pick up how to use spells effectively from using these sporadically. However in the transition to being a character that primarily blasts their enemies with spells, there is a lot more to consider than keeping buffs up and training the 2 schools required to get it castable, and the skills a person learns from melee combat are of limited usefulness.

Disadvantages of using spells
⦁ Very finite resource in magic points, especially early on.
⦁ Effectively prohibits wearing armor with any significant armor value for a large portion of the game.
⦁ Training spells requires a much larger (or at least, a more active) investment than melee (multiple schools to get different spells active, still need fighting and defences too)
⦁ In the midgame missing high cost spells required to kill enemies can mean having to retreat and regen mana to full and try again.
⦁ Spell use mechanically is more complex than melee or ranged
Advantages of using spells
⦁ Higher damage from range than otherwise possible
⦁ Area damage on many spells
⦁ Utility and control not available to melee and ranged
⦁ Spells are fun
⦁ Greatly adds to replayability and customisation potential

Feedback and Criticism is welcome both of the species and post. Also let me know if you have any bugs when playing it (though it may take me some time to fix as I can't code worth a damn).

Big thanks to |amethyst and the folks at ##crawl-dev for helping me get this together!

[Aean]

It sounds interesting, and I'll have to give it a try! It would be good to have an "intro caster" race - as any experienced player knows, despite initial appearances, deep elves are definitely not a good intro race.

If you haven't already, I suggest looking at the testing thread for Faerie Dragons (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25195). They were meant to fill the same hole in the game, as strong intro casters. Could be a good place to find some of the potential pitfalls with the Yokkaso, and to help make sure it doesn't get rejected for similar reasons.

[duvessa]

I can see the rationale for the MP-refunding mechanic, but it disqualifies the species from being described as "simple". It's pretty complex. If new players are struggling to manage MP (as these MP species proposals always suggest), how can you expect them to wrap their heads around something like this? If it's randomized, it also has the problem that you'll want to pause after every cast to see whether it got refunded or not. If there's going to be a species with an extra MP gimmick, I really think it has to be something simpler, like letting them cast all spells for 1 MP.

The MP refunding is definitely not too powerful; you could give the species infinite MP and it would still be weaker than Draconian. Don't worry about that.

Lopsided aptitudes are bad. They should have the same aptitude for all melee weapon skills and unarmed, probably -1 or -2. I also don't understand why they have -1 Fire Magic but +1 in the other elements.

Still, this is the first "newbie caster race" proposal that isn't just a buffed Deep Elf or Draconian, so that's a breath of fresh air.

For most casters this means they end the game in Fire or Ice Dragon Armour

These are probably the 2 least useful body armours in the game. Characters shouldn't be ending the game in them unless they have an insane randart or something.

[yokkasomb]

It sounds interesting, and I'll have to give it a try! It would be good to have an "intro caster" race - as any experienced player knows, despite initial appearances, deep elves are definitely not a good intro race.

If you haven't already, I suggest looking at the testing thread for Faerie Dragons (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25195). They were meant to fill the same hole in the game, as strong intro casters. Could be a good place to find some of the potential pitfalls with the Yokkaso, and to help make sure it doesn't get rejected for similar reasons.

That's actually why I even thought of this, I saw that species and was super excited about it. Was really disappointed by the decision to not go through with it, so I had a look at the design goals, and the specific reason given for not including the FDs and tried to follow them. I agree with Realz 100% there is a empty spot where a beginner caster could be put.

This is the quoteo for why FD was rejected:

The consensus right now is that we're not going to merge this, but I will leave this PR open for now in case any other devs wanted to comment. I don't think that the premise of this species is a good one. The benefits you've given FD make the early game easier through some quite extreme mutations (very high AC and SH bonus and free L1 spells from turn 1) yet don't make heavy spell usage characters easy to play past that point. Low-defense, low HP characters using spells extensively are difficult for new players because using spells to keep monsters sufficiently away from you requires a lot of knowledge and careful execution. The FD mutations don't alter this fundamentally relative to the existing species associated with magic in crawl. Many of the large list of mutations FD has are in fact shared with these other species (large AC bonus, uniformly good magic apts, low HP, innate flight, EV bonus in flight).

You mentioned the Simple category specifically, but this species wouldn't actually fit the working definition Lasty used since it has a long and complicated mutation list. There's some interest in reforming the definitions of these categories, but unless and until that happens you'd certainly not want to aim for the Simple category with such a relatively complicated species.

The MP cost reduction mutation does weird things to L1 spell usage and was removed from Vehumet in the past in part because of this. I mention this because it was one aspect that at least one dev expressed some interest in, but if you reuse the idea in any future proposal, it might be better to simply try an increased rate of MP regen.

So to go point by point through it (and to a lesser extent why this would be a good species to go into the "simple" category)

1. The benefits to new players was through a number of extreme mutations and didn't have a big impact on casters beyond the early game.
This is addressed by having only one new "mutation" added for the species (and two total), which requires little effort to understand and use effectively. This mutation is as beneficial early game as it is late game. Scaling and effectiveness can be adjusted as desired.

2. Spells require players to know how to keep their character away from enemies especially on low health low defence characters.
This is a high(ish) HP and high(ish) defense caster done almost entirely within the rules so there is much less "rule-breaking" to get the player head around, and the mechanic of disabling the chance of free spells at 50% will hopefully engender players to more careful positioning and general play. (So incentivises them to learn the positioning most beneficial to them)

3. The mutations and playstyle need to be sufficiently different from other magic using species to be worth considering.
As a low int and no bonus mana species but with the spell ability and heavier armour, Yokkaso play much more towards preserving the most health possible to get the bonus spells, doing this through armour and it's synergies with often overlooked spells make if different enough in my opinion. Yokkaso are able to cast tougher spells in big armour, but they also have much higher hunger costs, and will have less overall spell success to cast high level spells for a given point in the game. This species does NOT play like a deep elf in plate. (IMO)

4. New Species should not be overly reliant on pulling from mutations other species start with.
The only mutation used existing in the game is Sturdy Frame and this is present on no other species by default currently. It is also the lesser of the two major points for the species, and the bonus mana return for being high health is I believe an interesting (and playstyle adjusting) mechanic that is at the same time very simple to understand.

The species is also potentially a good fit for the "simple" category by being 10 speed, being durable through +aptitudes for fighting and armour and sturdy frame 2, having a very small mutation list which is very simple to understand (so limited rule breaking), it's aptitudes and abilities will (hopefully) help players learn good spellcasting practices.

[yokkasomb]

I can see the rationale for the MP-refunding mechanic, but it disqualifies the species from being described as "simple". It's pretty complex. If new players are struggling to manage MP (as these MP species proposals always suggest), how can you expect them to wrap their heads around something like this? If it's randomized, it also has the problem that you'll want to pause after every cast to see whether it got refunded or not. If there's going to be a species with an extra MP gimmick, I really think it has to be something simpler, like letting them cast all spells for 1 MP.

The MP refunding is definitely not too powerful; you could give the species infinite MP and it would still be weaker than Draconian. Don't worry about that.

Lopsided aptitudes are bad. They should have the same aptitude for all melee weapon skills and unarmed, probably -1 or -2. I also don't understand why they have -1 Fire Magic but +1 in the other elements.

Still, this is the first "newbie caster race" proposal that isn't just a buffed Deep Elf or Draconian, so that's a breath of fresh air.

For most casters this means they end the game in Fire or Ice Dragon Armour

These are probably the 2 least useful body armours in the game. Characters shouldn't be ending the game in them unless they have an insane randart or something.

Thanks for the feedback, I don't 100% agree that "Higher health = get more free spells" is too complicated for a new player to understand, but can see that it would prelude them being moved into the simple category if people did need spoilers to make use of it properly.

I get that messing with mana costs and the mana pool is a slippery slope towards making the game dumbed down, but making all spells cost 1 would be a bit too far

I think the species needs the lopsided aptitudes because without them the species will become a very very strong hybrid, and that's fine in most cases but with this innate ability I think it would be overpowering. But better player experience than mine may prove otherwise.

I did really want to make a species that wasn't just BETTER than one of the other races people learn casters on, so I'm glad that came across!

You are probably right about the body armours, I just couldnt help using them as they were at a great breakpoint for encumbrance rating, I wanted to illustrate how sturdy frame would impact a players spellcasting ability and the 7/11/15 ratings seemed a good way to do it.

[duvessa]

I think the species needs the lopsided aptitudes because without them the species will become a very very strong hybrid, and that's fine in most cases but with this innate ability I think it would be overpowering. But better player experience than mine may prove otherwise.

I meant keep their weapon aptitudes below average (-1 or lower), but make it the same number for all melee weapons. So instead of -4 long blades and 0 staves they'd have -1 for both, or -2 for both. So they'll still be worse at melee than humans, but if they do choose to melee, they will choose between all the weapon categories, instead of just maces and staves. Similar changes have happened to various other races' weapon aptitudes over the years for this reason.

It would be good to have an "intro caster" race - as any experienced player knows, despite initial appearances, deep elves are definitely not a good intro race.

Are they really? Yeah, DE is weaker than Draconian and has bad HP, but the same is true of Gr and yet new players have no trouble learning how to play melee characters by playing GrFi. As long as a species isn't completely mechanically messed up (glares at Vp) players will learn with it fine whether it's weak or strong.
Forgive me for going a bit off-topic, but I've heard multiple people clamor for a caster combo as strong and straightforward as MiBe (yes, that specific combo), and that already exists, it's DDEE of Makhleb. Insanely powerful combo that my cat could play. But no-one wants to play it, including my cat, because strength isn't the issue. I'd much rather play DEEE or YoEE, even though both are much weaker, and I suspect most new players would as well!

[yokkasomb]

I meant keep their weapon aptitudes below average (-1 or lower), but make it the same number for all melee weapons. So instead of -4 long blades and 0 staves they'd have -1 for both, or -2 for both. So they'll still be worse at melee than humans, but if they do choose to melee, they will choose between all the weapon categories, instead of just maces and staves. Similar changes have happened to various other races' weapon aptitudes over the years for this reason.

It would be good to have an "intro caster" race - as any experienced player knows, despite initial appearances, deep elves are definitely not a good intro race.

Are they really? Yeah, DE is weaker than Draconian and has bad HP, but the same is true of Gr and yet new players have no trouble learning how to play melee characters by playing GrFi. As long as a species isn't completely mechanically messed up (glares at Vp) players will learn with it fine whether it's weak or strong.
Forgive me for going a bit off-topic, but I've heard multiple people clamor for a caster combo as strong and straightforward as MiBe (yes, that specific combo), and that already exists, it's DDEE of Makhleb. Insanely powerful combo that my cat could play. But no-one wants to play it, including my cat, because strength isn't the issue. I'd much rather play DEEE or YoEE, even though both are much weaker, and I suspect most new players would as well!

I would certainly be willing to change the aptitudes to -1 or so if it would be more balanced and/or enjoyable to play, would there not be a concern however that a -1 aptitude wouldn't be enough of a disincentive to makeing this a very strong hybrid? Or am I reading the species incorrectly and even with good weapon aptitudes it wouldnt be a good hybrid?

I did think about MiX a lot when making this species. Kept coming back to "Does this species really need to be the MiX of spells?" Hopefully it's on the same track, just 3 stations behind!

[duvessa]

Yeah, -2 for all melee weapon classes is probably best.

[Fingolfin]

I just look forward to playing a YoMo^Ma

[Wahaha]

Is there something that indicates that new players might have difficulty learning how to use magic compared to melee?
If the answer is yes, is that a problem? Because even if the answer is yes, it's not a significant difference is it.

For a new player, this race might help them learn certain aspects of the game as you described. But how much more efficient will it be at teaching this compared to playing a different race, and is it worth having a race exist just for this purpose? For a non-new player, this race's mechanic is essentially "your mp is higher than the number shown on your mp bar" and that's it.

My honest personal opinion is that this idea is really boring as it is right now. I understand that since it's intended for new players it's supposed to be simple. But I think new players learn just fine playing DE or whatever else they choose. Dr is a "simple and durable magic caster" except it doesn't have OP spell apts. I wouldn't dislike a "MiBe for spells" if it offered something interesting for all players.

[Magipi]

I've heard multiple people clamor for a caster combo as strong and straightforward as MiBe (yes, that specific combo), and that already exists, it's DDEE of Makhleb. Insanely powerful combo that my cat could play. But no-one wants to play it, including my cat, because strength isn't the issue. I'd much rather play DEEE or YoEE, even though both are much weaker, and I suspect most new players would as well!

I've only tried DDEE only once, and I found that it's horribly bad. You lose too much health in the early game in a robe before Makhleb (and even with Makhleb at low piety). By the time I stabilized, my character was already crippled (had too few mana points to function properly).

Maybe your cat is much better than I am.

[nago]

With DDEE you shouldn't need to use a robe for long, you can easily swap to heavier armor.

[sanka]

Anecdote: my first win was with a deep elf caster, despite trying to win minotaur berserkers as well.

For me it illustrates that the strength of the combination is not that important for novices. I think that combinations where it is easier to figure out an OK tactic are much better. Melee tactics are harder.

I won with the DE because of a simple tactics I figured out: try to only fight one monster at a time (to prevent running out of mana), always have a route to retreat (to enable regaining mana), try to kill the monster at range (because of 20% HP and weak AC, and to let me run away if low on mana).

You may see that why I think that lifting the mana restriction is not a good idea for a novice race. It won't make it much more powerful, because mana is rarely an issue for an experienced player after the early game, but it removes an early warning that your tactics is not good.

In contrast, a MiBe can easliy go for a long, long time with alternating O and tab with some luck. Until she suddenly dies by fighting a huge army of monsters at once, and never realising what was the mistake in the first place, because her tactics "worked" so far. This phenomenon is most pronounced with trolls,hence many newer players think they are weak in mid game.

Similarly, I feel that DDEE is not good for novices. The main problem exactly is that they won't die due to a mistake. When you first play crawl, and see that others do long streaks etc., you assume that if you die it is your mistake, and examine the situation. However, with DDEE you won't die due to your mistakes now, just 10 levels later, and you will never know whether sacrificing HP to kill the ogre/orc priest etc. was an OK battle or a terribly played one.

**********

What I would like to see as a "caster" race is one which gets spellpower.

For example:
-- gets the "your spells are harder to cast, but more powerful" mutation level 3
-- +2 apt at spellcasting and all magic schools, +2 shield, -1 Armour/dodging, -2 everything else EDIT: I would actually add +2 stealth as well.
-- has +SH (raisnig at some levels) as defense bonus. Shiled penalties are the same as for Na/Ce. SH is good because:
* it is unique, no other race has it
* it works better against single enemies, which helps you learn proper tactics
* It somewhat favours single handed weapons, which are generally cheaper, so you are driven towards magic more

[yokkasomb]

Is there something that indicates that new players might have difficulty learning how to use magic compared to melee?
If the answer is yes, is that a problem? Because even if the answer is yes, it's not a significant difference is it.

For a new player, this race might help them learn certain aspects of the game as you described. But how much more efficient will it be at teaching this compared to playing a different race, and is it worth having a race exist just for this purpose? For a non-new player, this race's mechanic is essentially "your mp is higher than the number shown on your mp bar" and that's it.

My honest personal opinion is that this idea is really boring as it is right now. I understand that since it's intended for new players it's supposed to be simple. But I think new players learn just fine playing DE or whatever else they choose. Dr is a "simple and durable magic caster" except it doesn't have OP spell apts. I wouldn't dislike a "MiBe for spells" if it offered something interesting for all players.

http://colinmorris.github.io/blog/dcss_species

The data pretty unequivocally shows there is a significant disparity between the win rates of melee/ranged type species and caster species.

Minotaur, Centaur, Gargoyle, Hill Orc, Troll and Ogre are all in the top 10 species for win rate. Gargoyles have a 1.43% win rate according to sequel.
Deep Elf and Draconian are 3rd and 4th from last place. Tengu is 8th from last. Deep Elf have a 0.43% win rate for this species according to sequell.
These species win around 50-66% less often based on that post.

The question is: Do people who want to play a caster just do it wrong, if so is there enough of a reason to try and address this?

There should be an option for an "easier" caster species than is currently available, because shifting playstyle from melee to spells is already challenging, it doesn't need to be further compounded by the species people think of as "for casters" adding to the difficulty.

In my opinion yes it is worth having a species specifically aim at (but not exclusively fun for) players who are learning spells, part of DCSS major design goals is to be new player friendly, and I quote "DCSS Major Design Goal - gameplay supporting painless interface and newbie support" from the manifesto found here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23466

Part of the draw of magic use in all games is the ability to do things impossible in real life, and as such is it one of the most popular achetypes in a lot of video games. When new players start crawl up and decide to sling spells, they will naturally gravitate towards what they think will be the strongest casters, Deep Elf or Tengu or X, and these races are EXCELLENT casters, however they are very unforgiving of mistakes. Players may eventually find out that a lot of people learn spells on a draconian because they are durable and proficient spellcasters. However, draconians have -1 in spellcasting and 0 in ALL other spell schools. Is it new player friendly to have the beginner caster class have only negative or neutral magical aptitudes?

I agree with you this species is somewhat "boring" but in this situation I believe that to be a good thing, because there isn't much for a player to have to think about, but it still has enough of an impact to make a difference in their playstyle.

[Vajrapani]

I'm always happy to see people messing around with the crawl codebase.

I'll be sure to playtest this and tell you what I think.

[Wahaha]

What I was getting at, but didn't state explicitly (and should have), is that it would be nice to explore different ideas, looking for one that not only meets the goal of having an easy caster race but also offers something new in general.

[Stonar]

The question is: Do people who want to play a caster just do it wrong, if so is there enough of a reason to try and address this?

I think a corollary to this question is: Are casters just harder, and if so, should they be?

Because to say the problem is that there are no races that make casting easier for new players feels false. It's just that casting is hard. Many expert players say things like "The game is easier as a caster," which feels lacking in nuance. I think that casting is both more difficult for an inexperienced player and more powerful when used properly. So, to loop back, is it your opinion that "caster characters" should not be more difficult than "melee characters?" I think that's a fine goal, but I don't think it's how the game is currently designed. It's not clear to me that fixing how new players play casters should be a goal, if it's also true (and desirable) that casters are just harder.

[yokkasomb]

The question is: Do people who want to play a caster just do it wrong, if so is there enough of a reason to try and address this?

I think a corollary to this question is: Are casters just harder, and if so, should they be?

Because to say the problem is that there are no races that make casting easier for new players feels false. It's just that casting is hard. Many expert players say things like "The game is easier as a caster," which feels lacking in nuance. I think that casting is both more difficult for an inexperienced player and more powerful when used properly. So, to loop back, is it your opinion that "caster characters" should not be more difficult than "melee characters?" I think that's a fine goal, but I don't think it's how the game is currently designed. It's not clear to me that fixing how new players play casters should be a goal, if it's also true (and desirable) that casters are just harder.

That's a great point, I think it isn't necessary for caster characters to be as easy to play as melee, obviously there is a lot more going on so more depth of play and more involved decision making are expected (and good for long term replayability). The current way magic and spellcasting works is enjoyable and varies a lot on what way you want to go through the game, and I wouldn't want that to be dumbed down, removed, or automated any more than I'd want quaffing potions to be automated. However, there is a very steep (and lengthy) learning curve to get into magic in the game at the moment, which I think could do with some smoothing out.

It would be beneficial to give newer players an easier route to magic proficiency to help improve player retention, there is a great deal of depth and replayability to DCSS, of which spells are a major component, and helping players achieve a certain level of familiarity with the systems of magic in the game easier will hopefully allow them to then fully explore what can be done with it in future games.

[sanka]

I guess people's experience differs, but I found casters to be easier when I was a new player. But it was probably because they were really so much easier in that ancient version? Who knows what would happen now.

[Rast]

Are casters just harder, and if so, should they be?

Just about all the caster races are badly gimped when it comes to HP and AC. Some have SH and resistance problems also.

That's on top of the inherent problems with casting in armor.

If you want to find out if casters are truly harder: increase DE apts for Fighting and Armor and Shield to +0, and their HP to normal, and give inherent Wizardry so they can cast in heavier armor.

[svendre]

Are casters just harder, and if so, should they be?

Just about all the caster races are badly gimped when it comes to HP and AC. Some have SH and resistance problems also.

That's on top of the inherent problems with casting in armor.

If you want to find out if casters are truly harder: increase DE apts for Fighting and Armor and Shield to +0, and their HP to normal, and give inherent Wizardry so they can cast in heavier armor.

This is the crux of the matter. HP and AC are so important because no matter what your system of killing things is, what kills you is when you have several things beating on you, and that is difficult to avoid all the time. When several things are beating on you, your defenses are tested multiple times in a turn. The only spells which reliably deal with stopping multiple threats which could kill you quickly are high level spells, and it's a tough route to get those if you choose to only rely on spells along the way.

The easiest combos to play link primarily to:
Armour aptitude, HP, other defensive aptitudes, ranged and melee aptitudes.

Hybrids can be okay also, but I find more often than not you still want to add your melee/ranged/defense skills first before adding many spell capabilities later.

The things which screw spell casters the most:
1) Difficulty casting in heavier armour (ranged and melee suffer much less, and also pump STR instead of INT), there's no miscast effect for melee/ranged...etc..
2) Difficulty in having enough XP for all the different spell schools you need to cover all the resistances of monsters and STILL needing defenses and backup melee. (there's no ghost moth which shuts down your melee, etc.)
3) Difficulty in having enough mana to sustain in long fights when you can't run away to rest/recharge (assume tons of things in the dungeon will outrun you)

If you make a race which addresses the worst of these issues, and it sounds like it is being done somewhat at least on points #1 and #3, then it could work for the opening game and mid-game, but it could also be extremely powerful as a late game extended character. Personally I'd probably switch to something less complicated where the mana gimmick comes into play, like the old vehumet ability where spell costs are reduced by 1 mana per spell, or by some percentage of the total spell cost.

I think it's a little dangerous introducing a lets fix casters race instead of fixing the overall game imbalances between melee/ranged and casting.

P.S. Ice dragon armour is one of the best armours, and it's a great choice to use. Ring of Flames+Firestorm...

[duvessa]

2) Difficulty in having enough XP for all the different spell schools you need to cover all the resistances of monsters

you mean 1?

(there's no ghost moth which shuts down your melee, etc.)

what is it with tavern and ghost moths. they're on like one level outside of zot. and even then they only drain 10 MP at a time and only do it while in LOS, that hardly shuts down casting. and turning invisible yourself prevents them from doing it at all.

[svendre]

2) Difficulty in having enough XP for all the different spell schools you need to cover all the resistances of monsters

you mean 1?

(there's no ghost moth which shuts down your melee, etc.)

what is it with tavern and ghost moths. they're on like one level outside of zot. and even then they only drain 10 MP at a time and only do it while in LOS, that hardly shuts down casting. and turning invisible yourself prevents them from doing it at all.

No, I don't mean 1.

Hexes, MR immune, good luck.. but but fulminant prism... that's two schools
Charms, don't do a lot of direct damage without other skills
Fire, fire resistance... but, but firestorm - oh wait that's 2 schools not 1.
Ice, just like fire
Earth, damage everything, but completely miss highly evasive creatures (with two schools).. no walls, no dice.. shatter doesn't hurt flying stuff that much
Air, rElec (with 2 schools) or the target might not fly and avoid a lot of the damage
Necromancy, bad for fighting rN+++ stuff, demons and other stuff that doesn't leave corpses
Translocations, … well, at least there's force lance, oh wait that's 2 schools....

Actually, you could get by with just transmutations and dragon form... but that is killing everything with melee.

There's nothing with ghost moths, other than pointing out that besides the main point, which is that it is easier to run out of mana fighting monsters than it is to run out of the ability to swing axes, that on top of this there are other mechanics which penalize spellcasting that don't really have much of a counterpart for melee/ranged. There is also silence and antimagic.

[Shard1697]

pointedly not mentioning conjurations

[Fingolfin]

Also LRD, probably the best Earth spell, kills evasive enemies just fine

[Rast]

what is it with tavern and ghost moths. they're on like one level outside of zot. and even then they only drain 10 MP at a time and only do it while in LOS, that hardly shuts down casting. and turning invisible yourself prevents them from doing it at all.

1) Ghost moths aren't the only mana draining creature.
2) They drain mana very quickly. You will be at zero in a few turns, especially if you're casting too.
3) If this were a discussion about ghost moths, you would be advocating giving them sInv so their attack can't so easily be negated by spoiled players.

[duvessa]

1) Ghost moths aren't the only mana draining creature.

eyes of draining are speed 5 come on, a chei character can walk away from them
also they have literally no way to deal damage at all

[cliffracer]

The immediate mechanical problem with MP return is that with skilled play (i.e. the simple rule of not fighting below 50% HP) it might as well just be +30-60% MP, and a straight MP buff is much easier for a new player to understand than a random chance of return based on health. I get that this might be to encourage new players to not fight below 50, but a better feature would just be to make 50% the new default for HP warnings.

There have been a few ideas for a species that's good at all magic schools and has buffed MP, but that doesn't really get why casters have a higher skill floor. Crawl is a game about the complex interaction of complicated systems. MiFi is easy to play because it drastically reduces the number of systems you have to understand to be good at the game. You have only one tool in your toolbox but it's a hammer large enough that most enemy systems start to resemble nails. Contrast this with a deep elf: you can cast pretty much every spell in the game but you have to assemble a large toolbox such that you can appropriately match your complicated systems to the enemy's complicated systems.

When learning to ride a bike, systems are reduced to make it easier. Training wheels remove the need to balance and allow the user to focus on learning to pedal and steer. It means sacrificing some speed and versatility, but a new rider doesn't have the skills to exploit those anyway.

Like with melee's MiFi and training wheels on a bike, a good newbie race [i]reduces the number of systems a player needs to worry about. Which brings me to my point that Crawl already has two very good newbie casters: gargoyle and draconian.

The immediate problem for any caster (and to a greater extent hybrids is that magic requires a more complicated armour decision than wearing whatever gives the highest AC. The right decision depends on what enemies are expected to appears and what spells and equipment floorgod has spawned and making the wrong decision will result in 1-2 turn death from across the screen by a stone giant or a centaur pack. Gr essentially gets its armour class boosted by one level (so a Gr in a robe is equivalent to any other race in chain mail) and Dr eleminates the system entirely in favor of a flat AC bonus and a resist with no spellcasting or stealth penalties. In addition, Gr's long mutation list can essentially be summarized as "immune to bullshit", so there are no stupid deaths due to adders or electric eels (and their larger cousins black mambas and shock serpents).

The second, larger problem for casters is that there are over 120 spells in the game, all of which do something unique. Contrast this with axes, where you progress through selecting one of

small axe (one-handed)
medium axe (one-handed)
big axe (one-handed)
bigger axe (two-handed)
biggest axe (two-handed)

Casting is much easier if you only focus on a small number of straightforward schools like fire, conjurations, and earth. A book of fire will carry a player through the midgame and just having fireball and iron shot is enough to win. A gargoyle with a stable of 3-4 damage spells is going to have a much easier time than a deep elf who can cast everything but has to balance how much they put into offensive spells, how much they put into disabling spells, and how much they put into summons for creating meatwalls and which enemies to confuse vs which enemies to fart cloud. (Hill Orc is the secret third newbie caster)

[VeryAngryFelid]

To teach players stay at high MP we may need something more radical. For instance doubled MP and then draining (with warning and confirmation for the first time) when trying to cast if below 50% MP.

[yokkasomb]

To teach players stay at high MP we may need something more radical. For instance doubled MP and then draining (with warning and confirmation for the first time) when trying to cast if below 50% MP.

Players feel better about "losing a bonus" than they do about "gaining a penalty" even if it is functionally identical (see WoW rested bonus for example). I feel that players will be frustrated by having so much mana and never being able to really make use of it. It would be there as an emergency reserve like you suggest, but a new player will just see a bunch of mana they are punished for using. Perhaps disconnecting it from the mana bar itself and instead have it as an ability (though this becomes very Siffy) to cast while on 0 mana at the cost of draining?


At any rate, I have a few notes on how playing a Yokkaso impacts a run:

At XL1 when getting a character off the ground, if I encounter an enemy (or group of enemies) that doesn't die before I am out of mana, on other casters I often consider (and go through with) hitting them with a +0 weapon found on the floor to finish them off. On a Yokkaso I am much more inclined to kite them to stay at full health while regenerating a bit of mana to cast hopefully 2-3 spells for that 1 point of mana. This is also true later in the game but much less common for obvious reasons.

Trained armour a lot more and as a result, spend more time trying out different combinations of armour and rings etc to get the best AC/resistances/spell success rates as possible. It becomes a more informed decision as to what (higher level) spells to sacrifice castability on in order to stay alive.

Accidentally (on full hp) let a nearly dead 7-headed hydra into melee range (standing on top of a conjure flame). I had a CHOICE whether to sticky flame it and kill it in 1-2 turns, or to read a scroll or cast blink or whatever. It wasn't a "If I don't leave melee range immediately I might have to start a new character" situation. (Still never felt comfortable fighting a full hp hydra in melee range though.)

At XL2 and XL5 the level 2 and 5 spells respectively were cast a LOT until I noticed (a) I was getting hungry so much more often and (b) it wasn't necessary on most things I was using it on. I tried to use hunger appropriate spells on enemies from then on, and also kept a closer eye on what spells hunger costs were and when I could safely transition to using them more regularly.

I ended the game in Storm Dragon Scales +10 for both the AC and the relec which let me shift my rings around to get more out of them. I was able to cast level 6 spells reliably after a bit more training, and by zot I was able to cast level 7 spells below 10% failure rate. Level 8 and 9 spells were permanently out of reach for this run however.

Any time health damage was done (not just big chunks of it) I was immediately considering how to preserve my health to get the most out of the free spell effect. This meant I was as a byproduct staying safer and being more aware of what damage I could take and how to minimise it.

All in all I'd say Yokkaso play distinctly different from other species at the moment, and does a fair, but not perfect, job of being new player friendly and encouraging good caster practices. Obviously biased though.

I am not locked into the current formula for spells, not how much it refunds, or even when and how many levels of sturdy frame the species gets. I am keen to have this species be balanced if it is included into the main game.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I believe if we are trying to teach players keep enough MP for emergencies, there is no other way than to punish player for using MP. Giving a bonus for high MP is not enough because this is what we already have (having high MP allows to cast more spells) and it does not work. Punishment for using MP in emergencies is still useful as it teaches players to run away before their MPs are close to 50% and also getting draining is usually much better than spending a consumable.

[Tumalu]

Just about all the caster races are badly gimped when it comes to HP and AC. Some have SH and resistance problems also.
That's on top of the inherent problems with casting in armor.

This here is the main reason I think part of the concept for this species is interesting. The two problems with casters is lack of durability, and what happens when you run out of mp. Granted, we already have Draconian and Gargoyle (and maybe Ogre) for higher-durability casters. But I think Sturdy Frame, positive Armor apt, and no hp penalty (maybe even a small hp bonus?) approaches the matter from a new angle enough to be something to consider. 'goyle casters don't even need to move past robes, draconians can't use armor at all; this species is encouraged to wear half-decent armor the whole game while casting.

The mp part is the other big caster benefit, but it's more fiddly. And no, don't make "double mp bar but the lower half will cause draining". Do you want to know why that's bad? Because players feel entitled to their whole mp bar, no matter how big it is, and punishing them for using part of it is going to make playing the species feel gross even if you actually made it better by doing so. If Ogres got drained for any damage they took under 50% hp would people want to play ogres, even if they had more hp than currently? Well naturally some people would, but it'd just feel -bad- when you got drained, not "whew, other species would be dead now!"

More MP (beyond a slightly bigger bar) is something that hasn't been addressed by any species yet and could certainly make casting easier, especially for new players. An RNG chance to cast for free at high HP sounds fiddly. Maybe an MP cost reduction at high hp would work better, with minimum 1mp cost. This species can already use weapons fine from the get-go, while wearing decent armor, and still casting spells.

Honestly, if the weapon apts aren't -3 or worse across the board, I'd probably just flat-out play the species as a hybrid. However, I also suck at mages, so maybe I'm silly. I 15-runed a GrFE because sticky flame is obscene and you get tons of AC after living long enough to make your blaster caster nice and safe, but for the most part I just splat mages before the end of lair all day long. Hence my winrate is sad even though I can win decent melee characters vaguely reliably.

[yokkasomb]

I believe if we are trying to teach players keep enough MP for emergencies, there is no other way than to punish player for using MP. Giving a bonus for high MP is not enough because this is what we already have (having high MP allows to cast more spells) and it does not work. Punishment for using MP in emergencies is still useful as it teaches players to run away before their MPs are close to 50% and also getting draining is usually much better than spending a consumable.

The free spells are in proportion to your current health vs maximum health, not mana values. Though there is no reason why it couldn't be changed to work off MP % instead if that feels better/more balanced?

Teaching players to respect enemy damage more on a caster is what the mechanic is aiming for currently.

[yokkasomb]

Just about all the caster races are badly gimped when it comes to HP and AC. Some have SH and resistance problems also.
That's on top of the inherent problems with casting in armor.

This here is the main reason I think part of the concept for this species is interesting. The two problems with casters is lack of durability, and what happens when you run out of mp. Granted, we already have Draconian and Gargoyle (and maybe Ogre) for higher-durability casters. But I think Sturdy Frame, positive Armor apt, and no hp penalty (maybe even a small hp bonus?) approaches the matter from a new angle enough to be something to consider. 'goyle casters don't even need to move past robes, draconians can't use armor at all; this species is encouraged to wear half-decent armor the whole game while casting.

The mp part is the other big caster benefit, but it's more fiddly. And no, don't make "double mp bar but the lower half will cause draining". Do you want to know why that's bad? Because players feel entitled to their whole mp bar, no matter how big it is, and punishing them for using part of it is going to make playing the species feel gross even if you actually made it better by doing so. If Ogres got drained for any damage they took under 50% hp would people want to play ogres, even if they had more hp than currently? Well naturally some people would, but it'd just feel -bad- when you got drained, not "whew, other species would be dead now!"

More MP (beyond a slightly bigger bar) is something that hasn't been addressed by any species yet and could certainly make casting easier, especially for new players. An RNG chance to cast for free at high HP sounds fiddly. Maybe an MP cost reduction at high hp would work better, with minimum 1mp cost. This species can already use weapons fine from the get-go, while wearing decent armor, and still casting spells.

Honestly, if the weapon apts aren't -3 or worse across the board, I'd probably just flat-out play the species as a hybrid. However, I also suck at mages, so maybe I'm silly. I 15-runed a GrFE because sticky flame is obscene and you get tons of AC after living long enough to make your blaster caster nice and safe, but for the most part I just splat mages before the end of lair all day long. Hence my winrate is sad even though I can win decent melee characters vaguely reliably.

A couple of alternatives to the chance at free spells, if it is decided it is too awkward to include in the game (even if the species was not put into the simple category)
At or over 50% health spells cost half mana, rounded up
At or over 50% health spells cost 1 mana less, to a minimum of 1
At or over 50% health your spells get an accuracy bonus
At or over 50% health your spells cost 50% less hunger
At or over 50% health your mana regenerates X percent/X flat amount faster.

It is purposeful that the weapon aptitudes are terrible at the moment, specifically to prevent this species from being a good hybrid. Without negative aptitudes it feels like this species would be extremely strong late game and extended, able to do everything. If we change the mana refund mechanic it may allow the weapon aptitudes to be improved or allow for some hybridisation?

[duvessa]

At or over 50% health spells cost 1 mana less, to a minimum of 1

I would highly recommend that any MP cost reduction mechanic scales with the level of the spell. A flat reduction is most effective for low-level spells, which encourages you to cast low-level spells more and high-level spells less, which is unfun.

[yokkasomb]

At or over 50% health spells cost 1 mana less, to a minimum of 1

I would highly recommend that any MP cost reduction mechanic scales with the level of the spell. A flat reduction is most effective for low-level spells, which encourages you to cast low-level spells more and high-level spells less, which is unfun.

Yeah that's true, but there is also a big difference in spell power as levels get higher that will make them more worthwhile anyway. There aren't a lot of people who are going to choose to cast 2 mana stone arrows over a 5 mana iron shot to kill things in zot.

[svendre]

At or over 50% health spells cost 1 mana less, to a minimum of 1

I would highly recommend that any MP cost reduction mechanic scales with the level of the spell. A flat reduction is most effective for low-level spells, which encourages you to cast low-level spells more and high-level spells less, which is unfun.

Yeah that's true, but there is also a big difference in spell power as levels get higher that will make them more worthwhile anyway. There aren't a lot of people who are going to choose to cast 2 mana stone arrows over a 5 mana iron shot to kill things in zot.

If the weapon aptitudes are going to be bad, and I think they need to be otherwise this race will be too strong as a hybrid (I think -3 isn't unreasonable if you give ample innate spellcasting abilities), then characters will need to use more spells to kill things, and a flat 1 mana point reduction will be awful past the opening game. People will want to use amnesia on the low level spells. I strongly agree it should scale with the level of the spell.

[Tumalu]

Making it a %-based reduction should be viable, yeah? Like one-third cost reduction, minimum of 1 mp reduced and minimum cost of 1.

And yeah, with the spell bonuses and still having workable armor, I'd agree with weapon apts at -3 across the board.

[mattlistener]

I support the proposal. It's hard to get behind the name though. "Durable, innate magic user, weapon disliker" makes me think: Dryad.

[duvessa]

call them "Yakkaso" and replace centaurs with them

[yokkasomb]

I support the proposal. It's hard to get behind the name though. "Durable, innate magic user, weapon disliker" makes me think: Dryad.

I understand that the developers want to move the game away from "western" or LOTR references, Yokkaso are basically dryads from another culture.

call them "Yakkaso" and replace centaurs with them

Then because they are "casters" give them portal projectile along with their bows, really make the first centaurYakkaso encounter fun!

[Shard1697]

What's the value in replacing "dryad" with "dryad, except most people won't recognize it"?

There are reasons people commonly crib from certain fantasy archetypes.

[chequers]

That question leads to off topic and has been well covered many times before.

[delarado]

Instead of chance based MP refund dependant on HP levels, how about giving them an amulet of guardian spirit to start the game?

Or even an amulet of the tree spirit (MP+10) that can only be equipped by Yokkaso's that has the safe effects as the guardian spirit to give you a little extra buffer?

That way you'd get an early game advantage without creating a complicated mechanic or making the class too abuseable with Vehumet. I Can see random spell refund + vehumet spell refund being insane... Infinite firestorm anyone?

This also still teaches the player that taking damage is very bad. It'd increase difficultly slightly (in that MP would be depleted by taking damage) But I feel this further reinforces the playstyle goals of a pure caster race.

[Tumalu]

Instead of chance based MP refund dependant on HP levels, how about giving them an amulet of guardian spirit to start the game?

So... a Vine Stalker.

[delarado]

Instead of chance based MP refund dependant on HP levels, how about giving them an amulet of guardian spirit to start the game?

So... a Vine Stalker.

I've never played a vine stalker if I'm honest... But I guess they probably aren't designed to fill the role this species does?

If not, they will play so much differently then Is it much of a problem if they get the same item at the start?

[gameguard]

Ogre and Dr already fill the tanky caster role. If a new magic species is contemplated, it should add a new interesting mechanic. Maybe a species with combined HP/MP bar with spell vamp or something like that. MP refund is in essence just a MP buff.

I don't see why spell casters need to be simplified either. In pretty much every game, casters need a bit more care than melee brutes.