Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 463

Joined: Monday, 20th July 2015, 04:01

Post Saturday, 25th February 2017, 23:48

Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

If gameplay trumps flavor, then this seems like a good change. There's really no gameplay reason why this shouldn't happen and no real non-flavor reason to restrict those races from worshipping the good gods. They aren't suddenly going to become OP.

The races in question are I believe Ds, Mu, Gh, and Vp. Lemme know if I missed one.

Zinites are supposed to have a "no mutation" conduct, though, so depending on one's viewpoint, Ds still shouldn't be able to worship them.

For this message the author PowerOfKaishin has received thanks: 3
duvessa, phloomp, ZipZipskins

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 44

Joined: Saturday, 17th December 2016, 18:26

Post Sunday, 26th February 2017, 00:33

Re: Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

TSO and Zin are popular gods for extended. Torment is a major threat in extended. Worshipping them *and* having torment resistance is possibly overpowered.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 463

Joined: Monday, 20th July 2015, 04:01

Post Sunday, 26th February 2017, 00:40

Re: Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

I assume you mean torment immunity and not torment resistance, because Gr and anyone with statue form already get torment resistance and are perfectly capable of worshiping any good god.

Anyway, as you know, all undead are vulnerable to Dispel Undead. Dispel Undead is used in a lot of the same areas torment is (most notably Tartarus and Tomb), presumably so that undead don't get a free pass. Like torment, Dispel Undead is a nasty spell to get hit by. Unlike torment, Dispel Undead can actually kill you. Though your gameplay explanation seems logical, as it currently stands I don't think torment immunity + good gods is remotely close to OP.

It's not like a worshipper of TSO casting Statue Form is scared of torment anyway, seeing as how the damage is reduced to 20% of current HP instead of 50% and the HP you have is augmented with 3 levels of Robust. They also aren't vulnerable to Dispel Undead. That seems much more OP than an undead species worshipping the same god, and that's before you take into account the fact that rN+++ is completely wasted on Ghouls and Mummies.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 167

Joined: Friday, 23rd October 2015, 03:12

Post Sunday, 26th February 2017, 01:08

Re: Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

The only potentially OP case would be Ds (great invocations aptitude could go really well with Zin). I don't think this is a huge problem though.

Just want to point out that flavor isn't a huge problem either, if you change some text ("The Shining One is skeptical, but accepts you anyway.").

BTW, how's this work in Hellcrawl?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4432

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Sunday, 26th February 2017, 05:53

Re: Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

PowerOfKaishin wrote:They aren't suddenly going to become OP.


I am not sure, complete immunity to both torment and mutations (Zin) can be overpowered, especially for Ghoul in heavy armour who does not care much about Hell Sentinels either.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4432

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Sunday, 26th February 2017, 05:55

Re: Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

Dispel Undead needs line of fire, you can summon a couple of angels as meat shield. Makhleb is number one god for undead now, it will be inferior to Zin/TSO after the change and Ghoul/Mummy already have easy time in extended.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Slime Squisher

Posts: 365

Joined: Monday, 7th January 2013, 08:22

Post Sunday, 26th February 2017, 13:30

Re: Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

While I get that gameplay trumps flavour, I think it is important for the world of DCSS to have some consistency.

It's not only about how the gods "feel" about having an undead/demonic worshipper. These gods actively give you tools to harm undead and demonic creatures en masse. It wouldn't make sense for those powers to magically switch off when affecting you, and it would involve a maintenance burden (for example, holy wrath weapons can't be wielded by the undead, but they would have to be excepted in when worshipping TSO. But what if you stop worshipping when wielding one? Would worshipping TSO cause scrolls of holy word to function any differently? Affect autopickup? etc etc).

For this message the author Steel Neuron has received thanks:
pedritolo

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4432

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Sunday, 26th February 2017, 16:49

Re: Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

Steel Neuron wrote:But what if you stop worshipping when wielding one?


This is not a problem. Holy weapons are automatically unwielded when Necromutation is cast.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1850

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 04:22

Location: Surabaya, Indonesia

Post Sunday, 26th February 2017, 21:55

Re: Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

Allowing them to worship good gods but keeping their holy weaknesses intact (like invoking cleansing flame damages themselves also, or wielding a holy weapon drains their hp slowly*) could be interesting. It could at least create interesting challenge combos.

*Coupled with tso's hp on kills, it could be a very interesting scenario where the weapon functions like a vampiric one (but on undeads and demons, ha!) that hurts its wielder and therefore forces them to fight more aggressively. (To prevent tedious swapping, we could make the weapon drain life only when there're enemies around.)

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 167

Joined: Friday, 23rd October 2015, 03:12

Post Sunday, 26th February 2017, 23:50

Re: Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

Just let undead and demonspawn wield holy weapons. Draconians can already wield dragonbane. TS1's cleansing flame would probably be awkward to use, so she could give 20% holy resistance (analogous to Kiku giving invokable torment and partial torment resistance). Alternatively, TS1 can just sort of suck for undead instead of being forbidden.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1850

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 04:22

Location: Surabaya, Indonesia

Post Monday, 27th February 2017, 02:03

Re: Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

Partial holy resistance is reasonable, since TSO would still be inferior to Zin and Ely for demonspawns and undeads.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 463

Joined: Monday, 20th July 2015, 04:01

Post Wednesday, 1st March 2017, 16:21

Re: Let Demonspawn and Undead worship the good gods

well, cleansing flame produces those holy clouds, right? Those things don't affect worshippers of good gods. If all of the modifiers from being an undead^good god are multiplied together, well, there's a x0 in there so they just wouldn't take any damage.

Can I get some input via a dev?

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 188 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.