Make monstrous DS grow claws first

[PlatinumSpider]

When DS is generated as monstrous make the claws show before any other aux attack mutation. This is to prevent people from training a weapon too much instead of UC. If they see an aux attack they assume they won't get claws most of the time and put a lot of XP into a weapon they won't use.

[duvessa]

"You feel monstrous" should probably be replaced with "You feel monstrous, and are guaranteed to get claws"

[ion_frigate]

Please, make it something like "You feel claws growing beneath your fingertips." There is such a thing as a balance between practicality and flavor.

[Elitist]

YEAH, "You feel monstrous" is probably obvious the first twenty times you grind Ds out. I didn't know that was the message for it until recently.

[removeelyvilon]

Make the game mention it somewhere in case I miss the message. So I don't grow too attached to my +∞ boots of McAwesome when they are replaced for a puny aux attack.

Well now that I think about it just remove monstrous

[VeryAngryFelid]

Yes, I believe it should be a clear message, we should not require previous experience with monstrous Ds. I won about 10 Ds and I was a monstrous Ds literally twice (one win, one loss). So getting something like "You feel monstrous and will get horns, claws and hooves" would be perfect.

[ZipZipskins]

"You feel monstrous, hopefully you hate armour slots"

[infinitevox]

As someone who basically plays only demonspawn, I feel uniquely qualified to comment here...

I like the concept of Monstrous Demonspawn
I've been collecting my thoughts on them for a while now, and I was going to make a post about it the next time my new Ds Muts suggestions list was ready, but I'll just slap the Monstrous part here...
Growing Claws first, and/or displaying a message as suggested are two excellent ideas that would definitely help.
But I think that Monstrous Ds could undergo a little bit of tweaking in general, not just a slight quality of life improvement.

Right now a Monstrous Ds loses access to Gloves, Helmet/Hat, and Boots but gains:
3 Slot-loss mutations - Claws | Horns/Antennae | Hooves/Talons
0 Scales mutations - Types of Scales
2 Tier Two mutations - Types of T2
1 Tier Three mutation - Types of T3

So you're already losing 3-9(?) potential AC from Slot-loss muts (not to mention missing out on potential artifacts) , and then an additional bit of AC/Resist/Stats/Ego from not getting a Scales mutation.
The trade off is 3 auxiliary attacks... that only work if you're melee. (And Hooves is literally just a worse version of Talons, but I won't go further into that here)
If you're a spellcaster, the best you can hope for is Antennae, so you get an actual ability you can utilize. (Most people just Quit the character here and try again)

What I suggest for Monstrous:
- Claws always develop first
- Unarmed Apt becomes 0
- Spellcasting Apt becomes 0
- Claws 3 always develop by XL 9

I think this would really go a long way towards having people give Monstrous a shot, instead of just pressing Cntrl + Q

[Rast]

I like the concept of Monstrous Demonspawn
What I suggest for Monstrous:
- Claws always develop first
- Unarmed Apt becomes 0
- Spellcasting Apt becomes 0
- Claws 3 always develop by XL 9

Or you could play a troll...

IMO monstrous demonspawn is different enough from normal demonspawn that it might as well be a different race. It's as if you had ten percent of Ocotopodes turn into felids at XL 9.

FR: remove monstrous demonspawn

[VeryAngryFelid]

That's the point of Ds. Sometimes you have nightstalker, sometimes you are monstrous, sometimes you have magic shield, sometimes you have free +10 AC etc.

[infinitevox]

Make it optional?
"You feel your Monstrous ancestory attempt to assert itself, do you allow this?: (Y/N)?"

[duvessa]

Make it optional?

Not that the "won't do" list means anything anymore, but choosing your draconian colour is on it, and I imagine the same would apply to choosing your Ds mutations.

[severen]

Why are you trying to jigger something that is obviously made to be bad? Monstrous Ds are purposely terrible. They remove the scales slot on a mutation set that takes away three frigging slots. Auxiliary attacks are not very good (unless you somehow get massive slaying which is unlikely).

Look 10% of the time Ds get turned into a joke/challenge species. Delete or play out the bad joke. That's it. If you want Monstrous Ds to be anywhere even close to the other 90% of Ds then you would need to do things like give them two scales slots instead on removing scales entirely. Personally I just delete them and realize that 10% of the time when I make a Ds crawl will have been setup to waste 10 or so minutes of my life.

Sadly one of the ways to make Monstrous a non-joke would be to stop all their body slots at level 2. This is how much a of a bad joke they are. Their supposed "advantage" that justifies their bad apts is so backasswards that having less of it is beneficial.

Seriously don't even bother.

[arandomperson12]

How good would monstrous ds be if guaranteed to have robust 3 in addition to another tier 3 mut?

[Shtopit]

I kind of like the idea of a Monsterkin race. However, it would be really close to a Troll in practice, unless there are more chances of bodily mutations like having tentacles instead of arms, that kind of things.

[Shard1697]

monstrous demonspawn are actually already fine in terms of power level. people underestimate aux attacks by a lot

[VeryAngryFelid]

monstrous demonspawn are actually already fine in terms of power level. people underestimate aux attacks by a lot

It depends on what you mean as power level. Melee glass cannon is hard late game when there are many ranged attacks. If players don't want to get powerful ranged attack, they prefer to quit.

[duvessa]

yeah when i think of Ds i definitely think of "hard late game"

[VeryAngryFelid]

YMMV but those were my impressions from my only monstrous Ds winner, it had surprisingly hard late game.

[Nekoatl]

If the demonspawn mutations you're destined for could be toggled visible on the mutations list screen (like how untrainable skills can be toggled visible on the skill allocation screen), would that help?

[Rast]

No, it would lead to scumming. If anything the mutations should be delayed further so you can't see almost your entire future at like XL 9.

[kuniqs]

Also:
- adjust draconian aptitudes so you can guess what colour you'll end up with.
- stop generating fans, books etc. once you already have a specific one.
- don't generate player ghosts if you have dispel undead memorized and under 50% fail rate
- generate monsters with weaker stats once the game detects a low winrate
- etc.

[scorpionwarrior]

Also:
- generate monsters with weaker stats once the game detects a low winrate
- etc.

dynamic difficulty in a roguelike sounds really unsatisfying to me

[duvessa]

if you die a lot the game already gets easier because dying a lot makes ghosts that give you free xp

[kuniqs]

if you die a lot the game already gets easier because dying a lot makes ghosts that give you free xp

I experience the opposite.

[LJFCAT]

I wish we could choose to be monstrous or not, because it's much easier to scum a monstrous DS anyway (just get to level 2, occasionally 3, and see if you get the "monstrous" message) than a preferred draconian color. I understand why they haven't, though. Either way, getting rid of monstrous would be awful, I would be so disappointed!

As far as the blatant claw message, I think that's a bit silly, personally, and that the type of issue you'd be trying to 'fix' for new players is inevitable anyway, one way or another, and just part of learning the game. Just my opinion, though.