Dungeon Master
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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Dungeon Master
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Lasty wrote:@Hurkyl: It sounds like you already have chosen your interpretation of what I'm trying to say, so there's no point in us trying to communicate.
Cocytus Succeeder
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Psieye wrote:These situations happen. One or more sides cannot comprehend the other side. Due to insufficient social finesse, patience is depleted on one or more sides.
VAF, regardless of whether you are right or wrong, you have failed to maintain the conversation. It's an easy mistake to make. So what will you do now? Given past performance, I am highly doubtful this conversation can be meaningfully rekindled. From the number of posts you've made, I presume this is an important issue to you. If you're just going to walk away and do nothing, then my presumption was wrong and this wasn't important.
Abyss Ambulator
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Cocytus Succeeder
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:I am not sure what you mean.
At least I am happy devs added average HP, this is what I suggested long time ago. I am just a bit disappointed it takes so much time.
Psieye wrote:The devs don't want that option in official crawl. There's nothing stopping people from putting that in an 'underground branch' that always pulls from trunk. Heck, with enough willpower, they could then build that branch and run a 'not-official-crawl' server somewhere so players aren't blocked by a technical know-how wall.
sanka wrote:VeryAngryFelid: I think you missed dpeg's argument about the cognitive load of numbers.
Of course I personally do not understand it either in the context of damage. For me it's surely much more cognitive load to remember and use the weapon damage formula or remember the individual damage of monsters. And dpeg's argument sounds as these things simply should not be available to the player, which sounds like some games where HP really is just a bar, and I honestly do not understand what is his argument of showing the player hp as a number, or showing base damage / enchantment for weapons. I think crawl would be perfectly playable without these numbers and some randomization so spoilers would not help, but it would be a quite different game indeed, and I would stop wonder why the game does not display damage numbers. But half-hearted in both worlds simply does not work well.
Dungeon Master
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Psieye wrote:I'm pretty sure the same devs will be much more willing to teach you how to make your own branch with your desired changes. Provided it's made clear it's not official crawl, this branch could then be hosted somewhere else. If unwilling to do this yourself, find (and persuade - with money if need be) someone else to do it for you.
Barkeep
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Be constructive. Remember that everyone posting on GDD is trying to make Crawl a better game.
Cocytus Succeeder
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:people become tired of incorporating latest trunk changes into their own branches
branching again and again.
archaeo wrote:I'd encourage everyone to come up with new ideas
Ziggurat Zagger
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Crypt Cleanser
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Psieye wrote:Personally? Just have 3 pips for AC: 0-10, 10-30, 30+ and don't call it "AC" in xv. "Base sturdiness" or some such will do.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Cocytus Succeeder
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:Sorry, you said nothing new to me here.
I am sure you know what "conflict resolution" means.
Siegurt wrote:I posit that monsters don't need as much variability in AC as they presently enjoy.
I further suggest that armour-wearing monsters simply push the monster's AC up a number of steps on the scale, rather than add the value that players get for AC, and that the xv display for monsters show the adjusted AC. (Similarly protection ego items would push the monster up one "pip")
Ziggurat Zagger
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Psieye wrote:Perhaps we have a different perspective of which takes more effort. From my view the effort you put into typing the words in this thread exceeds the effort in keeping a tiny UI-tweak branch up to date with trunk. Or were you instead thinking of a branch with huge sweeping changes?
Ziggurat Zagger
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Psieye wrote:Hmm, in other words lowering the granularity of monster AC, without changing formulae aside from armour/+AC effects. Could be worth investigating.
Cocytus Succeeder
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:Psieye wrote:Or were you instead thinking of a branch with huge sweeping changes?
https://github.com/Sandman25DCSS/diffic ... ifficulty2
I rebased the branch about 3 times but then got tired to spend 15-20 minutes on manual conflict resolution.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:If difference between AC 15 and AC 19 is not large enough for displaying, maybe we should change all monsters to have AC 0, AC 10, AC 20 and AC 30?
Ziggurat Zagger
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Psieye wrote:VeryAngryFelid wrote:Psieye wrote:Or were you instead thinking of a branch with huge sweeping changes?
https://github.com/Sandman25DCSS/diffic ... ifficulty2
I rebased the branch about 3 times but then got tired to spend 15-20 minutes on manual conflict resolution.
Yep, huge sweeping changes - i.e. scope creep. Not what my post was about: a minimalistic branch.Yes, have monster AC be based on an enum with just 3~5 entries instead of an int.VeryAngryFelid wrote:If difference between AC 15 and AC 19 is not large enough for displaying, maybe we should change all monsters to have AC 0, AC 10, AC 20 and AC 30?
Dungeon Master
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Ziggurat Zagger
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dpeg wrote:sanka: I've never said damage numbers are bad, and if you look closely to what I wrote (which admittedly is a lot), then you'll even see hints to the contrary. I don't think damage numbers should be discussed here, because it's the wrong thread. I said multiple times in this very thread that gameplay feedback should be discussed, and damage is clearly one of the most important aspects of that. (My tirade was, and will be, against the "full" solution: just display Sequell data, and think you'd be done with it.)
Dungeon Master
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Vestibule Violator
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Lasty wrote:To be clear, that post was addressing hurkyl only, and only because he felt he knew the dev team's motivations better than members of that team do.
Tomb Titivator
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Lasty wrote:Really, playing well has almost nothing to do with knowing any exact monster stats. It has a lot more to do with mastering basic tactics, being able to predict how a situation will develop, having an escape plan, and leveraging all your resources creatively as needed.
Lasty wrote:I'm also sure that it doesn't mean displaying every number a player might think to ask about
Lasty wrote:As for the giant frog/spiny frog thing, I'm not sure what to make of that.
dpeg wrote:In real life, you make informed decisions all the time without knowing exact numbers (think about health, purchases, relationships etc.)
Abyss Ambulator
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Vestibule Violator
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tabstorm wrote:Won't trying to make tactical decisions with extremely incomplete information based on small sample sizes induce a much larger cognitive load than doing so with more known information? Let's pretend you are a player who has never used Sequell data or the wiki in your life.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Dungeon Master
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Sprucery wrote:I tried to ask this once but got no replies from devs:
If I have two or more weapons, how I am supposed to decide which one is the best?
Ziggurat Zagger
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dpeg wrote:No, there isn't a good way to compare weapons right now. I'd be willing to discuss how to go about it, but not in this thread.
Tartarus Sorceror
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dpeg wrote:Yes. You make it sound like !!! is all of the feedback Crawl gives to players, so I'll not go along that route. But the exclamation marks themselves are a nifty tool: they are not intrusive, they indicate meaningful information, and they are flavourful. It suffices if the players parses them as "Whoa, lotsa damage!"HardboiledGargoyle wrote:...simply printing a bunch of exclamation marks?dpeg wrote:Note how simply printing a bunch of numbers is the simplest (i.e. laziest) solution from both a coding and a design point of view. We have higher standards.I don't think anyone is saying that. If you know what you're doing, more information will lead to better play and more wins.dowan wrote:If nothing else, lets not pretend that more information leads to worse choices. There's a very good reason you do research before you make an important decision.
I claim that more information is not more fun for everyone. Granted, more (even full) information is fun for some. For myself, it'd be less fun. Hence, someone has to decide where to draw the line. I hear you say, "then just print the numbers and you foolhardy ignoramuses can pretend they're not there". However, this is not true because I'll always assume that whatever feedback the game gives to me, it is relevant. I will try to parse and use it, thereby decreasing my fun.
About !!! which came up several times: I hope you guys realise that the exclamation marks were never intended to be disassembled by players. They are a very natural and convenient way to display overkill, and the additional messages do the same. They allow you to get a feeling about your current damage output. Feel free to count them, but rest assured that you're reading more into this than ever was intended.
Tomb Titivator
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dpeg wrote: (My tirade was, and will be, against the "full" solution: just display Sequell data, and think you'd be done with it.)
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