Make the Mines a vestibule

[Chicken]

It seems like every time I wander into Orcville it gets smaller. Used to be the bottom of four levels, home of Saint Roka who would kill you dead for sure. Now it seems like it's a little vault on the bottom of two levels. It seems like the Orcs have fallen on hard times - maybe four levels was too much, but two seems too few.

Also, why don't Deep Dwarves have their own homeland? With perhaps some Deep Trolls to do the heavy stuff you wouldn't expect a little guy to be good at, and to take the wear and tear. I picture a Deep Dwarf city as a very hierarchical, capitalistic place, where the dwarves with the big heal wands hold all the power, and the others drudge away endlessly in the hope of having their demise delayed a little longer. To be clear, the reward for clearing the level should be to get a guaranteed heal wand, which could then be taken as a given when designing late levels. They might also carry wands of enslavement, and the trolls might have some kind of Enslaved buff on them that can be cancelled by a player spell. I'm thinking "Wandholder" should actually be part of the name of the worst class of them ... might as well give them some actual attack wands too, just in case you were getting confident. Ought to be a fair-sized pasture of yaks or something to feed all those trolls, who might have shacks around the edges of it. Deep trolls are of course pretty fearsome; the deep dwarves should be MORE fearsome, since they don't regenerate aside from (probably) using up all the heal potions your player wants to grab out from under them.

Putting this together, I'm thinking the mines might transition to being more of a vestibule, sort of like Hell, with Orc, Dwarf, Elf, and perhaps other species levels opening into it. The true Orc Town with Roka would be in the Orc level. The Dungeon may actually be such a level itself; the Mines could be "closer to the surface" than the Dungeon itself, aside from the special entrance you used to come in. If you ever wanted to have a surface level (I'm thinking Barter Town, complete with pigs) infested by humans, it would be at the top of the Mine. And the mine, rather than being just being one race ("Orcish" Mines) would have random examples of all the races, but low-level examples whose role is just to do drudge mining. You could do it up with roads between the various sublevels to give a weak impression that it's a trade route. If you can put items on a yak and make it follow a basic dwarf, elf, or human until you're seen, that might be a passable impression.

[Shtopit]

I guess the problem with Deep Dwarves is that they would be very similar to Deep Elves and Orcs: human-like opponents with some notable skill or equipment. If you can develop some mechanics to make them unique, it will make their inclusion somewhat more possible, I believe.

[Shard1697]

The gimmick of Deep Dwarves as a player race is that they're tanky, but don't regenerate.
This is a terrible gimmick to give monsters, because it means you kite them around slowly whittling them down for trivial XP and no risk of death but a lot of boredom.
So it doesn't make sense to have Deep Dwarves that actually function like player Deep Dwarves-but having them not have the gimmick also doesn't really make sense, because why have them even be Deep Dwarves then? Confusing and weird.
You could make them normal dwarves, but that's also weird because dwarves that aren't deep don't exist as a player race anymore, so you've again got dwarves with different rules, for more knowledge overhead and little benefit...

The rest of the proposal is not going to get into the game either because for somewhere around a decade DCSS as a game has been continually shortened and streamlined, and indeed still ought to be shorter. Orc was shortened for a reason, and that reason was not to open up room for more additions to the game on a basis of flavor.

[arandomperson12]

You could just give all deep dwarves a minor healing spell, to simulate HW wand.

[Quazifuji]

I think if you want to propose a new branch, you need to give a gameplay justification for why it would be cool, not a flavor one. From a flavor standpoint, a Deep Dwarf branch sounds awesome. But what would it add from a gameplay standpoint? What would make a Deep Dwarf branch different, in a fun way (so not just tanky non-regenerating enemies, because that's not fun), from other branches in the game? In general, making a new branch is a huge undertaking. There's a reason new branches rarely get added to the game. It's not because no one has any ideas, it's because few people put in the effort to actually implement those ideas into a complete branch, and even when they do it doesn't always work out (Enchanted Forest).

Also, as Shard 1697 pointed out, people generally are not in favor of shortening the game, not lengthening it. Any new branch is much likely to be n alternative to an existing branch (similar to how the lair branches are now, or how Enchanted Forest would have been a Crypt alternative), rather than an entirely new branch. A Deep Dwarf branch would be more likely to be an alternative to elf or orc than an extension of them.

[edgefigaro]

1) Make a new branch. Call it Mountain.
2) Put dwarves in it. Call them "Mountain Dwarves."
3) Remove Deep Dwarves as a playable race.
4) Add a playable race called "Mountain Dwarves."
5) Happiness

[Shtopit]

1) Make a new branch. Call it Mountain.
2) Put dwarves in it. Call them "Mountain Dwarves."
3) Remove Deep Dwarves as a playable race.
4) Add a playable race called "Mountain Dwarves."
5) Happiness

1) Make a new branch. Call it Mountain.
2) Put dwarves in it. Call them "Mountain Dwarves."
4) Give them as description "This serious dwarf ain't no playah"
5) Profit!

You could just give all deep dwarves a minor healing spell, to simulate HW wand.

Isn't that a depowered version of elf death mage, and the same of angels and some priests and mages? I don't think we need a whole branch around it.

I think a good place to start would be, after some mechanics are ready, proposing the setting as a one-level portal. If it works well, it can then be expanded into a branch. Wasn't it like this with Spider?

[nublet]

I think we should brainstorm an idea for a deep dwarf branch - if it never becomes a thing, well, let us dream anyway.

How about a grim place with frequent cave-ins - that is, rock walls appearing out of nowhere - where mining golems (that are hostile, do not give exp and keep being generated) dig incessantly, and a few deep dwarves, the powerful enemies of the branch, wander around, having long lost their sanity.
The final level has runic seals and a rich treasure, but is infested by demons and/or undead.

[BabyRage]

Make it like Ulduar from WOW. First you fight some dwarves and their mechanisms, but deeper you go, more you find some terrible demons and monstrosities.

[ion_frigate]

Deep Dwarven Hall was a thing at one point, but it got axed before it ever made it into a stable version. Fun fact: it's the origin of monster death knights, as well as those weird "unborn" monsters from a couple years back.

IIRC part of the reason for removal was just that no one came up with any ideas that worked well enough for an entire branch, but I think a considerable part came from the fact that a branch composed of non-naturally-healing monsters either encourages tedious tactics, or requires silly gimmicks to make its monsters able to heal.

[tach3]

I think Deep Dwarves don t want to be disturb and they have much gold. It would be funny when in early game there is a dwarf castle ( like the gnoll/goblin castles) with a big runed door. When a low level player is stupid enough to enter, it should be an 100% death.

Or the Volcano is to easy. Perhaps with some dwarves instead of orcs it would be more fun.

[jwoodward48ss]

No. Just no. No newbie traps. They are NOT funny. Is that how we induce challenge? "Remember, use tedious scumming techniques, and never open a door on d:4-7; it might instakill you! Also, micromanage x and y without any advice or help."

Bad game design, tach. Very bad game design.

[tach3]

Why that.It would be fair with some Translucent stone wall. And Everybody knows that dwarves are master of defense. And the newbie could learn:" I don t have to pick up everything"

[ArcaneNH]

Translucent stone would be interesting, if kept small. I seem to recall seeing a jelly vault w/ altar on D1 protected by translucent stone.

[Shard1697]

Why that.It would be fair with some Translucent stone wall. And Everybody knows that dwarves are master of defense. And the newbie could learn:" I don t have to pick up everything"

You haven't really presented any reason for it to be in the game other than "dwarves!!", which isn't a very compelling reason. You haven't even established what you think these dwarf enemies should hypothetically do.

[Cimanyd]

with a big runed door.

No. Just no. No newbie traps. They are NOT funny. Is that how we induce challenge? "Remember, use tedious scumming techniques, and never open a door on d:4-7; it might instakill you! Also, micromanage x and y without any advice or help."

Bad game design, tach. Very bad game design.

Isn't that how runed doors already work?

[Shard1697]

Not usually as bad as 100% death when they show up!

[tach3]

I think conquering a castle is something special in early game. Kobolt castle- boring. goblin, gnoll castle - challenging. Deep dwarf castle - impossible(but much gold). It is such a respect thing. The character of dwarfes is that they sit surly on their gold and have never been conquered. (except one dragon...)

They should be great defenders.


(And I don t like the idea of an dwarf branch(in my opinon elfs, orcs, dwarfs and dragons are boring fantasy monsters. The shoal is great!)

[VeryAngryFelid]

It is bad to have monsters who can one-shot you because it greatly rewards players who read spoilers and punishes everyone else.
They might be ok if player could see their max damage in game and they couldn't use the deadly attack as their first action after coming into view.

[tach3]

One shot is to extrem. But perhaps very high AC.
A castle is a small area, perhaps it give the opportunity for a great defence strategy. (something like Elf 2 but better) ...I dont know

[Shtopit]

What about a dwarf floor-sized vault in Dis? They would fit pretty well with the general theme of sturdy melee, and give a somewhat different challenge if they have casters and constructs to complement them. Add a final treasure with some jewels, gold, good weapons and armour as a reason not to skip the floor.

[Sar]

It's Dis. You already have everything you need to win if you are doing Dis. Well, I'd still try to clear it, but I'm dumb.