Keyboard shortcuts for equipping

[ximxim]

...why are there 5 of these? I could see 2 (1 for putting on, 1 for removing), but 5? This honestly baffles me, is it a nostalgia thing?

I guess there's a similar situation with consumables and evokables, but at least there I can buy that there's a flavour reason not to replace all of them with "use" or something like that.

[Arrhythmia]

...why are there 5 of these? I could see 2 (1 for putting on, 1 for removing), but 5? This honestly baffles me, is it a nostalgia thing?

I guess there's a similar situation with consumables and evokables, but at least there I can buy that there's a flavour reason not to replace all of them with "use" or something like that.

(P/R) is separate from (T/W) because P/R takes a small amount of time and T/W takes a long amount of time.

[ydeve]

Roguelike tradition. The same reason there's (q)uaffing, (e)ating, e(v)oking (for wands and spells in other games, (z)apping is often used instead), and (r)eading for using different types of items. Probably from leftovers in the original Rogue from roleplaying games. In contrast see Brogue, where all items are either (e)quipped or (a)pplied.

[jwoodward48ss]

What's the fifth?

[ximxim]

What's the fifth?

(w)ield.

[Siegurt]

Roguelike tradition. The same reason there's (q)uaffing, (e)ating, e(v)oking (for wands and spells in other games, (z)apping is often used instead), and (r)eading for using different types of items. Probably from leftovers in the original Rogue from roleplaying games. In contrast see Brogue, where all items are either (e)quipped or (a)pplied.

Actually this has been discussed a fair number of times, and the end result is that it is easier to have a shorter list of things to choose from ([W]ear for example) than it is to have a longer list, and if you want the longer list, you can just equip/unequip things from [i]nventory, on the off chance that you find it harder to remember to [p]ut on jewelry, for example

[ximxim]

Roguelike tradition. The same reason there's (q)uaffing, (e)ating, e(v)oking (for wands and spells in other games, (z)apping is often used instead), and (r)eading for using different types of items. Probably from leftovers in the original Rogue from roleplaying games. In contrast see Brogue, where all items are either (e)quipped or (a)pplied.

Actually this has been discussed a fair number of times, and the end result is that it is easier to have a shorter list of things to choose from ([W]ear for example) than it is to have a longer list, and if you want the longer list, you can just equip/unequip things from [i]nventory, on the off chance that you find it harder to remember to [p]ut on jewelry, for example

Funny thing about equip/unequip from [i]nventory: all the keybindings except for wielding are different to "normal" equip/unequip, and you can't wield or unequip rods from that menu.

In the end, most of us here are old roguelike players and used to learning all manner of arcane key-combinations, so for us it's at most a minor annoyance, me personally I didn't even notice it until I tried playing online where you can't use the mouse for that. I'd argue though that if attracting new players, especially ones new to old-school roguelikes, is a goal, then streamlining things like this can be quite important.

[Siegurt]

Roguelike tradition. The same reason there's (q)uaffing, (e)ating, e(v)oking (for wands and spells in other games, (z)apping is often used instead), and (r)eading for using different types of items. Probably from leftovers in the original Rogue from roleplaying games. In contrast see Brogue, where all items are either (e)quipped or (a)pplied.

Actually this has been discussed a fair number of times, and the end result is that it is easier to have a shorter list of things to choose from ([W]ear for example) than it is to have a longer list, and if you want the longer list, you can just equip/unequip things from [i]nventory, on the off chance that you find it harder to remember to [p]ut on jewelry, for example

Funny thing about equip/unequip from [i]nventory: all the keybindings except for wielding are different to "normal" equip/unequip, and you can't wield or unequip rods from that menu.

In the end, most of us here are old roguelike players and used to learning all manner of arcane key-combinations, so for us it's at most a minor annoyance, me personally I didn't even notice it until I tried playing online where you can't use the mouse for that. I'd argue though that if attracting new players, especially ones new to old-school roguelikes, is a goal, then streamlining things like this can be quite important.

And i would argue that sticking everything in one equip menu is horribly annoying, and that there is certainly room for a difference of opinion.

[andreas]

It seems to me to rather clearly be a matter of taste or personal preference or whatever. Would an rcfile option to govern this be acceptable?

(I do agree that forcing long-standing players to reform their habits in this regard is a bad idea.)

[dpeg]

andreas: We have changed basic UI components before: command keys (perhaps some of you remember those old init settings where you could load previous defaults) and monster glyphs/colours. And of course there was complaining by (some) veterans. However, I think we should design with a mind towards new players. If it's better for them, I am fine with expecting oldbies to adapt -- after all, it'll be eventually better for them as well.

However^2, this does not hold for the equipment commands, in my opinion. Yes, the learning curve is steeper with five commands over a single one. But the gameplay experience is better with dedicated commands for item categories. Having to page through a list is especially bad, but it already matters if you have to scan four or ten or twenty lines of screen feedback.

[andreas]

andreas: We have changed basic UI components before.... However, I think we should design with a mind towards new players. If it's better for them, I am fine with expecting oldbies to adapt -- after all, it'll be eventually better for them as well.

Oh sure. I didn't mean that it is always bad to make veterans adapt to a change in basic UI. I meant I don't think it's a good idea in this case, because it doesn't seem to be a clear overall improvement. However, if some people would like the UI to work in the proposed way, and it is technologically feasible to give them the option, and someone is willing to code it up, I don't see much point in not allowing those players to have the option. I don't have much sense of how common a request this is, though.

However^2, this does not hold for the equipment commands, in my opinion. Yes, the learning curve is steeper with five commands over a single one. But the gameplay experience is better with dedicated commands for item categories. Having to page through a list is especially bad, but it already matters if you have to scan four or ten or twenty lines of screen feedback.

Seems like some people would rather look through one long list with all the relevant options. Not me; but I'm not going to tell them they're wrong about what they want, especially if it doesn't change how others experience the interface.

As for the learning curve: well, not everyone wants to pour time in up front. Sometimes people are interested in just trying a game out for a while and seeing how it goes, or are fine with playing slowly and casually, etc. They might plan to optimize the way they deal with the interface later, if they decide they like the game.

Admittedly a different situation, but I think it's similar: a lot of programs have shortcuts that are very effective for the users who take the time to learn them. But the programs don't force users to learn shortcuts instead of use dropdown menus or whatever. The designers rightly realize that some users will not be interested in memorizing more shortcuts to do stuff faster/more effectively, and are happy with plodding along.

(For that matter, right now we let players use the mouse to do all their inventory manipulation, which is quite slow if they're moving with the keyboard. I think it would be silly to try to force players to handle their inventory with the mouse if and only if they're moving with the mouse, though, on the grounds that it encourages them to use a faster more fluid playstyle....)

Anyway the learning curve is steep already; I do think it's worth thinking about what cognitive costs it's worth it to make new players pay.

[ydeve]

FWIW, I actually found Brogue's combined commands annoying at first. But it works for Brogue because the inventory limit is really small. I think bringing up the entire list of options in crawl would be pretty bad. Maybe not Nethack-BoH bad, but still bad.