Let Lichform drink potions

[Arrhythmia]

It's already a level 8 dual school spell which is competing with Death's Door and Revification for player attention. Let's make it better than "strictly bad".

[infinitevox]

In what world is Lichform bad?

[Arrhythmia]

In what world is Lichform bad?

The one where it doesn't let you drink potions, cast death's door, or cast revification.

[infinitevox]

In what world is Lichform bad?

The one where it doesn't let you drink potions, cast death's door, or cast revification.

But gives you rCold, +50MR, +AC, Necromancy spell enhancer, no spell hunger,
and outright immunity to: Negative Energy, poison, rotting, sickness, and Torment.

So how is Necromutation bad?

[Arrhythmia]

no spell hunger,
and outright immunity to: Negative Energy, poison, rotting, sickness

These ones are meaningless

rCold, +50MR, +AC, Necromancy spell enhancer, rTorment

These ones are worse than "literal invincibility and the ability to drink potions".

[dynast]

Nobody uses necromut because its good, but because it gets rid of what makes the game bad(draining, torment, hunger).

[Arrhythmia]

Nobody uses necromut because its good, but because it gets rid of what makes the game bad(draining, torment, hunger).

It'd be better if it was also good.

[and into]

This might be veering more toward Advice than GDD (just saying).

IMO the only redeeming aspect of necromutation is flavor. Turning into a lich is cool. (Subjective, yes, but I imagine the sentiment is widely shared.)

Everything else about the spell is messy. Putting aside the "should" question... Assuming you do get it castable, is it fun to reapply lichform while autoexploring Pan/Hell, and occasionally toggle it off in certain situations, and swap to clarity (or now autumn katana I guess if you happen to have it), and 5 it away to drink that potion of experience, and then go lich to get hungerless channeling with staff of energy/Wucad before changing back when you hit max MP, and so on?

It is a really finicky spell. It can possibly help you, if used in precisely this finicky sort of way. If used recklessly or overzealously, it can get you killed.

And you go through all of this, not even so much to make your character a lot stronger, but just to remove from the game an attack (torment) that exists, in the first place, only in order to create tense situations for extremely powerful characters...

The flavor is cool but is the experience of using this spell actually enjoyable? Like, at all? My very first lichdude was novel enough to be interesting. Subsequently I found using necromutation to be terribly boring, even though I continued for some time longer to cling to it, out of a really exaggerated fear of torment.

[Airwolf]

It does make extended alot less annoying. Also, too, rMutation.

[ion_frigate]

Also, too, rMutation.

So instead of having damage that can be cured by a potion intended only for that purpose, you can have damage that's only cured by a potions/wands that are far better used tactically.

Don't get me wrong, mutations can be worse than a few points of rot, but I don't think I'd call this one a strict benefit.

[Shard1697]

Lichform is a big "convenience" spell, for making things less annoying in extended when you already have plenty of XP, which is... alright, but it could stand to be less of an awful investment for actual tactical use.

At the very least, it should not wear off over time. Just let it last until you cancel it to make it more convenient, if that's the niche it's going to have. It's not like it wearing off ever really presents any meaningful tactical decisions, and the current state of things where you want to cast it, then immediately cast it again because it is a spell which enhances itself and thus gets a longer duration when used while active, is... real weird and bad

[archaeo]

I still stand by my "make amulet of gourmand into an amulet of necromutation" idea.

[ololoev]

Why everybody think necromut is bad? I try to get it castable in my runs and benefit from it even if I'm a fighter. Screw that potions, rTorm makes postend less tedious!

[Arrhythmia]

Why everybody think necromut is bad? I try to get it castable in my runs and benefit from it even if I'm a fighter. Screw that potions, rTorm makes postend less tedious!

Because if you can cast neromut than you can cast ddoor except ddoor is way better than anything necromut gives you and you can't cast them at the same time.

Please read the thread I already talked about it near the top.

[Wahaha]

Why everybody think necromut is bad?

It's not bad, it's very good. It's just not always worth the exp.

[Laraso]

Because if you can cast neromut than you can cast ddoor except ddoor is way better than anything necromut gives you and you can't cast them at the same time.

Can't you just end the form and then cast? Any situation where you would be unable to end lichform is also a situation where you wouldn't be able to cast those spells (confusion, petrification, paralyzation).

[goodcoolguy]

Hm, what about situations where you're going to die soon?

[Shard1697]

If necromutation was just a necromancy spell, that'd be one thing-getting high necromancy skill also opens a bunch of other options. But it's also lv8 transmutations, so casting it requires a prohibitive amount of tmut skill that is not worth getting for almost any character who wants to cast it, because if you're a character who uses transmutations to kill things you're spending your time in other forms which are mutually exclusive with lichform, and if you don't(which is usually the case), then getting high tmut skill doesn't open up any options for you.

So it's a much better idea to not train tmut, and instead train necromancy for Infestation and Borgnjor's, and then some charms(which you probably already have a good chunk of because of haste/dmsl) for Death's Door. All of which are better spells than Necromutation even if getting Necromutation didn't mean putting XP in a dead end school.

This could be helped in a couple ways-simply lowering necromutation's level would be a big move towards making it more reasonable.

[ololoev]

Why everybody think necromut is bad? I try to get it castable in my runs and benefit from it even if I'm a fighter. Screw that potions, rTorm makes postend less tedious!

Because if you can cast neromut than you can cast ddoor except ddoor is way better than anything necromut gives you and you can't cast them at the same time.

Please read the thread I already talked about it near the top.

But necromut is superior to ddor because necromut let you stay at full health where you should use ddor otherwise.
Also ddor have limited duration and if you fail to get outta trouble within given timespan, you are dead.
If you have NMut ready, you also can cast ddor. If things gets tricky, just turn necromut off and turn ddor on.
Maybe I have special playstyle?

[PowerOfKaishin]

Necromutation is inferior to ddoor at low hp and downright detrimental in of itself since you can't cast borgnjors.

At higher hp yeah ddoor is obviously worse since you don't need to cast it and doing so tanks your hp. However, it is literally a life saving spell outside of smiting and hellfire (and coupled with borgjors you are virtually guaranteed to live) and lichform stops it cold.

Torment is bad because it's incredibly spammable even by a single ice fiend and the optimal way of dealing with it is to get lichform online. The attack needs to be reworked.

Lichform itself is problematic as well. It should be permanent and you should be able to quaff, but should take 3 to 5 turns to transform and untransform.

[Sar]

torment is a great attack, though it's arguably bad that it can be resisted at all

postend is too long, though

[PowerOfKaishin]

I'd have no problem with torment if it couldn't be spammed. You should become immune to it for a time after getting hit by it. A shit ton of tormentors are unnecessarily annoying for all of the wrong reasons.

Non-lord demons shouldn't be immune to it either. My demonspawn doesn't get that shit. =(

[ololoev]

You can be brought to low hp within a moment of eye only by torment. Lichform protects you from this.
If you are at low hp in extended without torment involved, then you probably play in a wrong way.
Hence borg and ddor are almost useless while necromut is incredibly useful. Obviously we are talking about xtended.

[Arrhythmia]

Also ddor have limited duration and if you fail to get outta trouble within given timespan, you are dead.

No, because if Ddoor runs out and you're not safe, then you cast revification.

[ololoev]

Also ddor have limited duration and if you fail to get outta trouble within given timespan, you are dead.

No, because if Ddoor runs out and you're not safe, then you cast revification.

Your answerlet me make a final decision on how people play with top necro spells.
Necromut: I have multiple useful resistances, my HP cant be dropped too fast, if I'm at 70% I'll just retreat and skip/try again.
Ddor & Borg: Ololo ice fiend let's tab it wow another Ice fiend holy vapors why I have only 30 HP time to ddor, yeah I killed em oh I see demonspawns coming lets tele what the heck I landed right near the tormentor ddor is running out okay praying that it won't hit me the turn where ddor will fall OMG I'M ALIVE I'M ALIVE let's cast borg! Damn why I am at 50% HP again?

[Arrhythmia]

You know strawmen are meant for farms and not for internet arguments, right?

[goodcoolguy]

I've been to farms and I've been to the internet. I gotta say I'm not too sure about this one.

[Sar]

the second description is pretty much precisely how I play so I guess Borg/DDoor are more useful for me after all

[ololoev]

the second description is pretty much precisely how I play

To be honest, me too. Okay, Ddor+borg = necromut, depending on your choise.

[Shtopit]

I wouldn't give Necromutation the chance to drink potions, because forms are supposed to give a lot in a sector and to take away in another. All other forms will stop you from wielding, wearing clothes and using wands, pretty much turning you into a funny looking felid with special resistances, weaknesses and movement abilities (dragon form being the exception, although it still melds most worn equipment). Correct me if I am wrong, but Necromutation lets you use everything but potions (& HW). Sure, it would make much more sense if it could become something like a Necro 6/Transmutation 8 or 9 spell, as it would become usable to transmuters, but this handling of spells isn't part of the game, unfortunately. It would make Necromutation an advanced entry point for Necromancy, and allow for some more flexibility in how transmuter is played, given that Necromutation can be quickly cancelled but impedes mutations as long as it is active, making for different tactics.

[bananaken]

In practice Necromutation is strong simply because most people play a lot better under no pressure from torment and malmutate. It's trickier now with clarity no longer being an amulet of course, but even if optimal play for completing extended used DDoor+Borg, it's much easier to just cast Necromutation and forget about it after taking some minimal precautions. Also, you become a Lich.

Drinking potions would be nice for curing though.

[duvessa]

"Necromutation is better than Ddoor+Borg because people are bad at the game" is an argument I haven't heard before.

[bananaken]

I'm not saying it's better than ddoor+borg, I'm saying why it's better for a subset of players. It isn't an argument as much as it is just an observation of why people would rather use it.

[duvessa]

I was actually making fun of ololoev, but I suppose it applies well enough to your post as well.

[araganzar]

I can't imagine an bigger waste of time than arguing about how "bad" or "good" something is. The reason Arrhy should have given to remove -potion from Necromutation is the hit it took with the removal of the amulet of clarity.

Most players capable of casting Necromutation had a reasonable chance of access to clarity before this change - now most will have lost their only defense against many forms of confusion. This makes the inability to cure confuse a staggering price to pay and one that seems out of line with the risk for reward offered by the other level 8 spells.

The simplest way to fix that would be to remove -potion. So the question is, do that, or find something more complicated? Either way, let's not pretend something like that doesn't need to be fixed. The hell I'm gonna run around as a lich when I can get all dinglebrained from some eyeball looking at me funny. And there is nothing I can do?

I am a level 27 lich, my good sir or madam, I do not take the piss from eyeballs.

[Shtopit]

Uhm, it's just a form - one out of many. If you are somewhere you can expect confusion and eyeballs, you just don't use it. I think the main problem with necromutation is that people treat it as if it changed their species, while it's actually the same thing as statue form or dragon form, you don't use them if you expect shatter or ice clouds.
Of course, the fact that a spells that hard to achieve isn't all around usable is a let down, butt that's just how forms work. Maybe making it a lv 7 Nec/Transm for the lost clarity? It's a large investment anyway.

[Arrhythmia]

Uhm, it's just a form - one out of many. If you are somewhere you can expect confusion and eyeballs, you just don't use it. I think the main problem with necromutation is that people treat it as if it changed their species, while it's actually the same thing as statue form or dragon form, you don't use them if you expect shatter or ice clouds.
Of course, the fact that a spells that hard to achieve isn't all around usable is a let down, butt that's just how forms work. Maybe making it a lv 7 Nec/Transm for the lost clarity? It's a large investment anyway.

If your argument is "don't use lichform in situations that it isn't good to use lichform in" then no one would ever use it, and we should just remove it.

[bcadren]

I love lichform! I do. But then I use it with Sif Muna or a Staff of Energy for unlimited channeling and for the rTorm/rRot in places like Tomb and Tartarus. I also don't think no potions is normally that high of a cost, because by the time you'd be using the spell, you (generally; not always but generally) have Haste and Heal Wounds in wand for and the other potions can be used before big fights rather than in the middle.

[Shtopit]

...did I really write butt insted of but? o.O Well, if the spell as it is is unusable, then yes, it should be removed. But isn't lichform good in hell?

[Arrhythmia]

...did I really write butt insted of but? o.O Well, if the spell as it is is unusable, then yes, it should be removed. But isn't lichform good in hell?

Not as long as hell effects can still confuse you.

[dynast]

How about this: You shouldnt have a form which main effect is turning off other game mechanics.

[Shtopit]

Like armour, weapons, rods, wands?

[dynast]

Like armour, weapons, rods, wands?

...what?

[dowan]

Wands of digging turn off the wall mechanic of the targeted squares, weapons turn off the living mechanic of the monsters, AC turns off the losing health mechanic of taking damage...

Yes, these are all stretches, but it's my best guess as to what he meant. Either way a complicated game with many different pieces with their own individual mechanics can have meta-mechanics which operate on the base mechanics of the game itself, thus increasing complexity and depth. For example, poison is a mechanic that many races turn off, although this is quite low impact. Swimming races turn off the mechanic of deep water being impassible for themselves only, meaning you have different tactical options, thus increasing depth.

[Shtopit]

What I mean is that, currently, all forms turn off some mechanic. Spider, Ice and Hydra form turn off armour, weapons, rods and wands; Dragon form turns off armour, weapons and rods; Statue form, which is the most permissive, turns off all armour with the exception of hats; Lichform turns off quaffing.

Transmutations in general tend to give you more radical changes than charms, which is shown through making some items (and the associated mechanics) not available while you are in that form.

Other, non inventory associated mechanics which are turned completely off by some forms are special water movement in ice form, all kinds of non-wall terrain in dragon form, rot and the effects of poison in statue form and the effects of negative energy and torment in lichform.

[dynast]

And there you go, someone actually managed to interpret it wrong. I believe what he meant is that when you cast, say, ice form, you turn off all those other mechanics, except he forgot thats not ice form's MAIN EFFECT, but its drawbacks, which is enough to make most players just avoid the spell, because having a ice fists, cold immunity lvl 4 spell would be ridiculous otherwise. What is lich form's main effect? Turning off torment, hunger and draining.

[Siegurt]

And there you go, someone actually managed to interpret it wrong. I believe what he meant is that when you cast, say, ice form, you turn off all those other mechanics, except he forgot thats not ice form's MAIN EFFECT, but its drawbacks, which is enough to make most players just avoid the spell, because having a ice fists, cold immunity lvl 4 spell would be ridiculous otherwise. What is lich form's main effect? Turning off torment, hunger and draining.

You mean it isnt the negative energy branded uc? Damn i have been using it wrong

[duvessa]

lich form's main effect is its drawbacks

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Let Lichform drink potions

So how big a buff would this be? What potions do you actually want to drink while in lichform (besides curing)?

[Cheibrodos]

Let Lichform drink potions

So how big a buff would this be? What potions do you actually want to drink while in lichform (besides curing)?

It would be a tremendous buff because you would then be able to drink potions of agility, ambrosia, berserk rage, brilliance, cancellation, flight, haste, heal wounds, invisibility, magic, might, and resistance.