Remove see invisible from items

[Sandman25]

Current sInv is too powerful for player, it makes otherwise interesting monsters trivial. You don't need to wear those rings/weapon for long, you can just swap them and instantly know where the monster is. This is even worse than rMut/Clarity were (rMut gave "just" 90%, Clarity amulet didn't help if you were already confused).

As we know there are more than enough ways to deal with invisible creatures so it will not make game unplayable.

As side effect it will make species with intrinsic sInv and gods like Ashenzari/Fedhas/Chei/TSO more interesting/unique.

[Shtopit]

How can a melee character handle them? The only thing I can think of is knowing the AI or having a way to produce clouds, but not everyone has those. Right now, it seems to me that removing see invisible would need to make permanently invisible monster rarer, so that they can be made visible by luring them into water or using items to create clouds.
I do like the idea of non mages having problems handing invisible foes, however (for having to use items, as invisible monsters seem more directed to hurting casters right now), and I agree that see invisible is too easy to get, to the point of making invisibility pointless. Maybe it could remain in 1-2 unrandarts. It would also be an indirect buff to Quazlal.
Incorporeal invisible monsters would also become more serious. I only noticed today that shadow wraiths are supposed to be invisible.

[Sar]

you know you can just melee invisible monsters right

[Shtopit]

Yes, but not knowing where they are makes it difficult Are boggarts still invisible?

[Sandman25]

Yes, but not knowing where they are makes it difficult Are boggarts still invisible?

That's the point of suggested change, i.e. make it harder for everyone instead of just for those who were unlucky with loot. Boggarts have invisibility spell, we are already encouraged to one-shot them with ranged attack.

[dynast]

You could also remove see invisible from every player species and add a "hunter" potion that allows you to detect creatures for a short time, or the flash scroll i suggested sometime ago.

[Sandman25]

Yes, as rare consumable it will be acceptable.

[duvessa]

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/search.php?keywords=monster+invisibility+is+an+interface+screw&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=u&st=0&ch=-1&t=0&submit=Search

[Reptisaurus]

In practice I agree, in theory I'm afraid that octopodes would just be completely fucked.

[PowerOfKaishin]

In practice I agree, in theory I'm afraid that octopodes would just be completely fucked.

Octopodes could get SInv themselves. >_>

In practice Octopodes are only fucked by unseen horrors, which are nasty to anyone without the proper tools to take care of them, and shadows, because they take a lot of damage from a stab. Most other invisible enemies don't pose problems that the player character can't deal with. They might not be trivial and they might even be able to one-shot the player (Sigmund), but the player can still deal with them in the sense that they can avoid them.

[xbon]

maybe similar to distortion brand/faith amulets/guardian spirit amulet/etc, it could have a penalty for putting it on and taking it off to discourage build swapping like maybe temp confusion? I think Sinv has a place since you have to sacrifice a slot to use it in the first place when you could just be using a +8 ring of slaying or ring of vitality/etc.

[Arrhythmia]

maybe similar to distortion brand/faith amulets/guardian spirit amulet/etc, it could have a penalty for putting it on and taking it off to discourage build swapping like maybe temp confusion? I think Sinv has a place since you have to sacrifice a slot to use it in the first place when you could just be using a +8 ring of slaying or ring of vitality/etc.

You're not "sacrificing" a slot though, you're just putting it on until the invisible enemies are dead.

[dpeg]

I agree with OP.

Also, I think that Crawl 4.1 made invisible monsters purposefully spend a turn to move (when next to you, so instead of attacking).

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Would it go too far to just remove monster invisibility?

I don't really mind monsters that are invisible until they attack, like Shadows. Monsters getting the first hit in and then being revealed next to the player would create some dangerous moments. Normal speed non-batty invisible monsters are not so bad, but sometimes a bit tedious.

Unseen Horrors I don't really like. An unspoiled player without a source of SInv has no reasonable way to figure out what they are or how they move. Even many long-term players don't exactly know how bats behave.

[Sandman25]

Unspoiled player can learn Unseen Horrors when playing species with intrinsic see invisible.

I will work on patch tonight.

[PowerOfKaishin]

I never understood why those electric mutagenic flying thingies could turn invisible and somehow still be the same distance behind me when I'm running

[arandomperson12]

What should casters do about ghost moths then? They are often found in open spaces, and by the time you locate them, they may have already drained all of your mp.

[ydeve]

Go upstairs and teleport. Zap /iceblast.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

What should casters do about ghost moths then? They are often found in open spaces, and by the time you locate them, they may have already drained all of your mp.

There's a good chance that your mana is gone before figuring out where the moth is exactly, because it often only takes 2-3 casts. There are still some options to deal with it like cast something as soon as you get drained once or notice the moth (invisibility, summons), wands (tele, haste), scrolls (summons, tele) and god abilities.

[Shard1697]

As soon as you "feel something watching you", quaff invis. They can't see invis and they can't drain MP when they can't see you.

[Sandman25]

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/303

[Sandman25]

The pull request was declined too soon so I'd like to write my objection here as well:

Teleporting away, changing hat to one with see invisible and returning back to kill that Unseen Horror is too similar to teleporting away from Mottled Dragon, changing cloak to one with preservation ego and returning back to kill the dragon when item destruction existed.

[amaril]

Invisible monsters are a spoiler gimmick. Every one has different movement/mechanics, and some of them are extremely dangerous (ghost moths). They also encourage dumb optimal play whenever you are on a level that could contain an invisible monster--they are kind of like traps, in a way. I think that permanently invisible monsters should just be removed. The monster invis spell at least gives the player a chance to xv.

[njvack]

Invisible monsters are a spoiler gimmick. Every one has different movement/mechanics

Unless I'm mistaken, they all have the same movement except invisible horrors, which move like bats and harpies.

FWIW I'm also in the "rework monster invis" camp. Maybe something like:

Monsters who are invisible (either intrinsically or extrinsically) can only stay invisible while they move. If they take other actions (attack, cast spell), they become visible. Intrinsically invisible monsters become invis again after some (short-ish?) time. Extrinsically invis monsters need to take whatever action they took in the first place to become invisible again. I'd probably change invisible monster AI some to make movement less predictable.

This way, things like ghost moths and unseen horrors can sneak up on you, and other invis monsters can use invis to reposition, but it's not the "you know exactly where this monster is if you understand monster movement rules and can keep track of that in your head" thing, and it doesn't penalize EV-based characters quite so much.

This is, of course, assuming that monster invis is considered to be a good thing and one that Crawl should keep.