Idea: Devices


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 04:12

Idea: Devices

New skill/consumable category. Like evocables, but non magical. All break on use.

Why? Provide more space control, terrain manipulation, and other interesting abilities for non magic PCs. An alternative to zapping/blasting things.

Examples:

Grappling hook: reels a medium or small size monster/item to you. Chance to break non artifacts / damage monster.

Bomb: Can be planted in a 1tile range around the player. Generates smoke and a 2x2 explosion after 3 turns.

Caltrop: Damages next monster to step on it.

Bait: After being thrown, chance to distract non intelligent monsters (like Gozags passive)

Shovel: Shaft yourself after 3 turns.

Preferred criticism type: Address the general idea rather than nitpicking examples.

Thanks. Go.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 04:27

Re: Idea: Devices

I'm not sure what these sorts of additions would actually add to the gameplay? Would there be a new trainable skill involved in using these? Mostly I look at this and think 'inventory clutter I'm unlikely to ever actually use'. If they all break on use and are separate items, it's just too much junk to put in my inventory. A toolkit item that's relatively rare that allows you to pick one ability of your choice when you use it would be less messy, but probably too powerful.

I do like the idea of consumables that are more tactically focused, but the concepts would have to be much more fleshed out than this, as far as what the trade-offs are and where they fit into the design space. As it stands, there's not really enough here to make a realistic appraisal of the idea. How common would these be? How effective? What makes a bomb any better than a wand of fireball or a shovel anything but a worse scroll of teleport (Formicids shaft themselves because they can't teleport).

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 04:39

Re: Idea: Devices

Aethrus wrote:I'm not sure what these sorts of additions would actually add to the gameplay? Would there be a new trainable skill involved in using these? Mostly I look at this and think 'inventory clutter I'm unlikely to ever actually use'. If they all break on use and are separate items, it's just too much junk to put in my inventory. A toolkit item that's relatively rare that allows you to pick one ability of your choice when you use it would be less messy, but probably too powerful.

I do like the idea of consumables that are more tactically focused, but the concepts would have to be much more fleshed out than this, as far as what the trade-offs are and where they fit into the design space. As it stands, there's not really enough here to make a realistic appraisal of the idea. How common would these be? How effective? What makes a bomb any better than a wand of fireball or a shovel anything but a worse scroll of teleport (Formicids shaft themselves because they can't teleport).


Good response.

Require new skill? Not sure. My first instinct is yes. If only to differentiate them from evocables. But then again, there is a category of item that doesnt check skill and provides diverse effects: Scrolls.

If no skill, this proposal could simply be re-named: "Let's make more scrolls. Scrolls of pull, bomb, scroll of caltrop, etc"

What would it actually add to gameplay criticism: space/positioning control, more emergency options that arent simply escape option, in a somewhat rare consumable form to allow most chars to get some utility from them without being OP. Diversifying PC playstyles. Adding flavor.

Inventory clutter criticism: If devs want they can add more inventory spaces, most people seem to want them already. In any case, i see these as stackables (u can carry lots of bombs in one slot). So, not as cluttering as all that.

Commonness/effectiveness: I see it as not too common, in exchange for good effectiveness (rarity / effectiveness both somewhere between wand and rod; more reliable than a wand cuz no failure chance, less powerful than a rod cuz doesnt cost hunger to use).

What makes a bomb/shovel better than... criticism: Doesn't matter. SPECIFIC items can be re-envisioned until they are the correct amount of better/worse/different than existing items.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 05:24

Re: Idea: Devices

lethediver wrote:New skill/consumable category. Like evocables, but non magical.

So they're evocables, but flavored to be nonmagical? Why make a new skill if they are evocables? What makes them different from evocables?

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 05:33

Re: Idea: Devices

ydeve wrote:
lethediver wrote:New skill/consumable category. Like evocables, but non magical.

So they're evocables, but flavored to be nonmagical? Why make a new skill if they are evocables? What makes them different from evocables?


Whether they need to have a new skill attached or not is up for debate. They could be wands, other evocables or even scrolls for all i care. I just think the game could use a new set of items to fulfill this strategic niche: "utility" focused items that are less geared towards direct damage or buffing the player, and more towards battlefield manipulation, repositioning, changing/exploiting terrain, etc.

Main reason to differentiate would be:I envision many of these items 'thrown' or dropped into the environment in some fashion: bombs, caltrops are notable examples. Most existing evocables are about beam targeting.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 07:31

Re: Idea: Devices

So those items would be like rods, where I have to torture my wrists by manually 'q'uivering them every I want to use 'em?
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 15:14

Re: Idea: Devices

I think they could just be used with f like javelins and throwing nets, that should work fine. Bait is kinda cute. Not necessary but I like the idea of providing the player with options besides blast or run away after failing to blast. Bait could be used offensively or defensively which is neat.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 18:29

Re: Idea: Devices

Well I feel like the individual items you list as examples may have some or no merits, but each needs to be their own proposal.

The general proposal seems to be "let's make a new class of item, which is kind of like an evokable or scroll, but isn't exactly, and may have different flavor, and might or might not use a skill, and is possibly destoryed on use." however we already have that class of item, it is called an "item"

Unless you define a skill or mechanism that goes with it, there is nothing to actually create there, and the design space you puport it to give is already there to design stuff into, want to design a bomb or bait? Hey, look you just did, no special classes or pre existing mechanism required.

The point of special classes of things is to pre define a set of behaviors, which both reduces the learning for the player and the coding for the programmer, with no pre defined set of behaviors, this is not a thing so much as a way for you to think about some stuff that may become things.


Also you seem to dismiss item congestion, however, there is good and real game balance reasons you can't carry everything, and as is, in order to carry one of these things they have to displace one of the things you would otherwise carry now. You can't "just add more space" without changing the of the balance of the game, and there are a lot of players who don't want that dynamic changed, particularly in a way that makes it easier. It is possible to balance around that new dynamic, but it requires a host of tiny changes and even then it may never be quite the same. Adding seven to ten types of items without increasing the number of items you can carry drastically stresses your item space, on the other hand, adding even seven to ten more slots for items ups the players power level significantly (much less adding a near unlimited number of items as has been proposed)

Finally, in order to be attractive for use, a new item must not only fulfill some percieved need often enough for someone to want to carry it, but it must also be more useful for that situation than the other things one could use in that situation, managing that something is broadly useful enough that it is desirable, while being narrowly useful enough that it doesn't completely replace something else is tricky and gets harder the more types of items you add, so you want to choose what items go into type game very very carefully, not only to make sure that they work, but also that they don't overly limit your choices in the future. I am not saying that your suggested items are good or bad, but rather that you should think very carefully about how they fit into the games ecosystem when proposing them.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 18:51

Re: Idea: Devices

That all sounds unnecessarily complicated. Lets just add some of these items and see how it goes. If they are to broad to fit in the design space or w/e then we can take some of em back out. Yeah?

Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 19:11

Re: Idea: Devices

Lets just add some of these items


let's... who, exactly?

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 19:19

Re: Idea: Devices

lethediver wrote:Lets just add some of these items and see how it goes.

Sure, just make a pull request and write up the code for it.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 19:27

Re: Idea: Devices

Ok. How do i do those things, again? Quick refresher pls.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 19:30

Re: Idea: Devices

This forum always teaches me a lot about communication.
On the one hand the people here roll with what they think is a good idea, which never get's done and rehashed until infinity, on the other, the people with the ideas tend to think everything is easy to implement.
And still we end up with a great game!

Ontopic: don't care, and not sure if reflavored projected noise is a good idea.
Last edited by Lacuenta on Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 19:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 19:36

Re: Idea: Devices

It cant be that hard. I recently started making a game in GameMaker: Studio and i honestly think programmers make this stuff out to be harder than it is.

Now, link to tutorial pls?

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 19:39

Re: Idea: Devices

lethediver wrote:How do i do those things?

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=325

Shoals Surfer

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 19:42

Re: Idea: Devices

A sticky for this and rc file stuff in gdd would be great!
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 20:02

Re: Idea: Devices

Most of the information to get started is in the INSTALL.txt file. If you're still having trouble you can go on #crawl-dev on irc, usually one of the devs will help you get up and running.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 20:09

Re: Idea: Devices

When I have time I'll dive into this and make a nice post with a lot of links and a solid write-up, which then, could be stickied.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2016, 20:20

Re: Idea: Devices

I would encourage anyone who is interested to get involved in coding and try your hand at changing things around in crawl, but do keep in mind that coding up a patch is not a guarantee that the patch will be pulled into the crawl project.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2016, 15:10

Re: Idea: Devices

lethediver wrote:It cant be that hard. I recently started making a game in GameMaker: Studio and i honestly think programmers make this stuff out to be harder than it is.

Now, link to tutorial pls?


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That being said, adding an item to Crawl should be a lot easier than most other things.

The biggest thing about developing for Crawl IMO just just organizational- if you want to make a new god, finding every single place that a god can be mentioned and accounting for it, etc. I'm not saying it's poorly organized, just that there is so much that needs to be done.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2016, 23:11

Re: Idea: Devices

Lasty wrote:I would encourage anyone who is interested to get involved in coding and try your hand at changing things around in crawl, but do keep in mind that coding up a patch is not a guarantee that the patch will be pulled into the crawl project.


How about spitting out a half-baked idea that is short on details, dismissing legitimate criticism/suggestions, and then not coding anything up? Is that a good way to get something new added to crawl?

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2016, 23:59

Re: Idea: Devices

Rast wrote:
Lasty wrote:I would encourage anyone who is interested to get involved in coding and try your hand at changing things around in crawl, but do keep in mind that coding up a patch is not a guarantee that the patch will be pulled into the crawl project.


How about spitting out a half-baked idea that is short on details, dismissing legitimate criticism/suggestions, and then not coding anything up? Is that a good way to get something new added to crawl?
Hey, it worked for Gozag.

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 7th April 2016, 01:15

Re: Idea: Devices

Pictured: dpeg's skin

Image

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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Thursday, 7th April 2016, 06:15

Re: Idea: Devices

Rast wrote:
Lasty wrote:I would encourage anyone who is interested to get involved in coding and try your hand at changing things around in crawl, but do keep in mind that coding up a patch is not a guarantee that the patch will be pulled into the crawl project.


How about spitting out a half-baked idea that is short on details, dismissing legitimate criticism/suggestions, and then not coding anything up? Is that a good way to get something new added to crawl?


Not sure, if i ever get any legitimate criticism/suggestions i will test your theory.

Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 7th April 2016, 07:42

Re: Idea: Devices

can we add unthanks to tavern
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 7th April 2016, 08:36

Re: Idea: Devices

I'm not sure that this conversation is headed anywhere productive. Locked.

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